How could a Demon Hunter class work in WoW?

[Slowpoke is a Gamer]

Well that's a lot like Monk tanking. Monks are agility leather tanks that use Guard to offset physical damage.

Could you explain how Demon Hunter tanking would be different?

---------- Post added 2013-02-18 at 06:59 PM ----------



Is there any class in WoW that has a spec that uses a weapon that the other two specs can't use? In other words, if one DH spec can use crossbows or guns, why couldn't the other specs? Just doesn't make sense.

Arms Warriors don't use dual wielding. Prot Warriors don't use 2h weapons.

Hunters can still use melee weapons, but can only auto-attack with them.

It happens all the time that weapons a class /can/ use are not to be used by certain specs (or even used at all (2h shaman)).

[Teriz]

Arms Warriors don't use dual wielding. Prot Warriors don't use 2h weapons.

Hunters can still use melee weapons, but can only auto-attack with them.

It happens all the time that weapons a class /can/ use are not to be used by certain specs (or even used at all (2h shaman)).

Dual Wielding and the weapon not being optimized for your spec is a bit different than what you were talking about. Prot Warriors can still use 2H weapons, especially if they switch stances. The Hunter and Shaman issues you mention are class-wide. What you're talking about is marrying two completely different class concepts. One is magic-based melee, and the other is physical ranged combat. The two don't really go together.

[Golden Yak]

Rrg, first option is close but not accurate. Demon Hunters in WC3 can do ranged DPS as well when transformed.

Been thinking about this a bit lately, I'm not one for gameplay mechanic ideas, but I've been wondering how evasion tanks and a melee/ranged dps hybrid spec would work.

Mana Burn was a close-ranged spell in the DH's arsenal. No reason the WoW couldn't be tweaked from its current form, even renamed.
Immolation was a short-ranged aura that dealt damage to anyone close by the warlock, and it was toggled on and off. This is distinct from the demo-warlock's immolation aura which is a timed AoE spell. There's room there to make them distinct, even expand a toggle-Immolation with lots of other types (shield, shadow damage, etc.)
Evasion was passive, unlike the rogue version which has limited duration and a cooldown. Potentially useful as a unique tank mechanic, see below.
Metamorphosis is pretty faithfully translated in game - turns the user into a demon, making them more powerful. Since warlocks have mostly ranged DPS and DoT abilities, and demon hunters have melee abilities, there's potential to make them distinct from one other while sharing the overall mechanic. Demon Hunters turn into demons, warlocks use dark magic (including one spell that happens to turn them into a demon).

I say lift the Metamorphosis/Demonic Fury aspect from warlock's demonology tree and implement it across the board for all Demon Hunter specs. Then demo-warlocks will be to Demon Hunters what feral druids are to rogues. The various specs have different ways to maintain demon form longer - have some require a specific amount to transform and maintain the form, rather than them all turning back at zero.

Demon Hunter tanks use evasion similar to how the red dragons in the Oculus do - building up evasion charges to avoid damage. Maybe shunt all the damage avoided to a shield a la Blood DK's Bloodshield in case you run out of evasion. Evasion is constant as long as you have enough charges to fuel it. Was thinking to include Mirror Images Blademaster-style as a defensive cooldown that could take the heat off the Demon Hunter and restore evasion.

Honestly that evasion-tank style would perfectly for rogues - I haven't really come up with a way to work metamorphosis into it smoothly. Of course the most obvious route is to make Metamorphosis a tank stance a la bear druids, but we want the DH to fill roles that don't currently exist, so I'd like to see it used differently. Maybe it could be used as a defensive cooldown to take major hits as well as dealing out some burst DPS and rapidly replenishing evasion charges.

Melee/DPS spec is one that doesn't really exist yet - as a melee dps, nothing bugs me more than the enemy taking off into the air and jumping across the combat area, forcing me to hoof it over to them or stew on the ground like a sucker. Being able to viably switch from melee combat to ranged combat would be just the ticket. I was thinking it would work like two different stances with two different resources - melee stance uses one resource, ranged the other. Each resource only regens while you're in the opposite stance - i.e. melee energy regenerates while you're in ranged mode and using ranged abilities, and vice versa. There could be a couple of cooldowns that let you swap one resource for the other, or rapidly regen whichever isn't being used, if you feel you need to quickly go from one stance to the other.

Using Metamorphosis as the ranged stance is a no-brainer - that gives you a DH that's closest to it's WC3 incarnation. A melee fighter that transforms into a demon to attack from a distance. You could balance it so the spec gives steady melee DPS and heavy ranged DPS, or balance it to be equal over-all. Toss in a few abilities that get the DH out of close combat easy, like a hunter style jump or shadow teleport, etc.

I guess it would make sense to have the third spec be pure melee dps. We've got a close-ranged spell-users as well as pure melee fighters already, so it's hard to find a niche there that isn't already filled. This spec could also be the melee stready/burst ranged one, while another is a more closely balanced melee/range split. Meta would again be the burst dmg spell.

[Slowpoke is a Gamer]

Dual Wielding and the weapon not being optimized for your spec is a bit different than what you were talking about. Prot Warriors can still use 2H weapons, especially if they switch stances. The Hunter and Shaman issues you mention are class-wide. What you're talking about is marrying two completely different class concepts. One is magic-based melee, and the other is physical ranged combat. The two don't really go together.

You're trying way too hard here to pigeon-hole the DH into being purely the 4 abilities and 1 model from WC3. Probably to justify this shifting into a "well if warlocks have metamorphosis, we can't have Demon Hunter" discussion.

[Eroginous]

This thread is similar in tone to my thread about Bards. I'm really wondering how a Demon Hunter class could work in modern WoW. Years ago during the TBC, there was a solid opening for the class to be implemented, but it didn't happen. Now we have Warlocks with Metamorphosis and Immolation aura, and we have Rogues with a DW playstyle that gives them some "magical" abilities for AoE damage, and Evasion to increase their survivability. So implementing a Demon Hunter class would now be harder than ever.

Recently, Ghost Crawler put up a tweet. Someone asked him if Demon Hunters were possible in the game. This was his response;



Is there? Let's hear your ideas. The challenge is to come up with a Demon Hunter class that doesn't impede on current classes in the game. Given the sheer amount of posts about this class in nearly every thread regarding future classes and expansions, I'm sure there's some good ideas out there.

Also this thread isn't about whether or not Demon Hunters will be in WoW. This is about how the class could be implemented into the game without overtly clashing with current classes.

Oh, and feel free to participate in the poll.

I think the flaw here with the concept is that most people are suggesting it as a new class. Instead, it would work much better as a design overhaul with Hunters, by either adding in a 4th spec (demon hunting) or replacing one of their existing 3 specs (which I am sure no one would mind).

Then again, this is something that Blizzard needs to do for a few of the classes out there. Some classes just have way too much overlap in their specs. You could feasibly combine marksmanship and survival into one spec, then just add in Demon Hunting as a new 3rd spec.

[Teriz]

You guys seem to be struggling a bit, (and some posters wrongly think I am intentionally trying to sabotage this thread) so let me help out the DH fans.

Usually when I construct a class, I head over to Wowhead to see if the class already exists in some fashion in the game. In the case of Demon Hunters, we have a pretty decent list of NPCs. Next, we take a look at their ability lists and see what types of abilities Blizzard gives them, and then begin to construct a skeleton of the class we're trying to create.

So here's some abilities for the Demon Hunter class using WC3 and WoW:

Immolation: Deals Fire damage every second to nearby enemies.(Actually a very common spell in WoW)
Mana Burn: Hits an enemy with an anti-mana bolt. For each point of mana consumed by the bolt, the target takes 1 damage. (This is the version of mana burn that nearly every DH in WoW has).
Evasion: Increases chance to dodge by 50% for 15 sec. (Pretty much the Rogue's ability)
Metamorphosis: Variety of abilities. In most cases it seems to just grant the DH more hit points, and the ability to fire bolts of power. That could make it different than the Warlock Metamorphosis and DA.

Now let's look at the expanded abilities from Blizzard. These abilities come from DH bosses and NPCs throughout the game. Here's a rundown (and yes Virginia All of these spells come from Demon Hunters) ;

Spellbreaker
Melee Range
Instant
Requires level 1
Requires Melee Weapon
Inflicts 100% weapon damage and leaves the target wounded, reducing the effectiveness of damage spells by 75% for 6 sec.

http://www.wowhead.com/spell=35871

Banish
100 Mana 30 yd range
1 sec cast
Requires level 28
Banishes an enemy, preventing all action but making it invulnerable for up to 10 sec. Only one target can be banished at a time.

http://www.wowhead.com/spell=38009

Sprint
Instant
Movement speed increased by 120% for 10 sec.

http://www.wowhead.com/spell=32720

Debilitating Strike
Melee Range
Instant
Requires level 1
Requires Melee Weapon
Inflicts 100% weapon damage and leaves the target wounded, reducing the effectiveness of any physical attacks for 5 sec.

http://www.wowhead.com/spell=39135

Curse of Flames
30 yd range
Instant
Requires level 55
Increases Fire damage taken by 50% for 1 min.

http://www.wowhead.com/spell=38010

Illidan's abilities (values changed so they aren't so LoL-worthy)

Agonizing Flames
40 yd range
Instant
Deals x Fire damage instantly to all enemies within 0 to X yards of the target and dealing x Fire damage over 1 min.

http://www.wowhead.com/spell=40932

Aura of Dread
Instant
Deals x Shadow damage to all targets within 15 yards of the caster, increasing shadow damage taken by 30% for 10 sec.

http://www.wowhead.com/spell=41142

Flame Crash
40 yd range
1.3 sec cast 2 sec cooldown
Deals 925 to 1075 Fire damage to the target and leaves a blaze upon the ground.

http://www.wowhead.com/spell=40832

Frenzy
Instant
Damage increased by 50%.
Attack speed increased by 30% for 20 seconds.

http://www.wowhead.com/spell=40683

Summon Shadow Demons
1.3 sec cast
Summons a Shadow Demon. The Shadow Demon will stun a target, then pursue it until death.

http://www.wowhead.com/spell=41117

Throw Glaive
40 yd range
Instant (Requires Glaive)
Throws the DH's Glaive.

http://www.wowhead.com/spell=39635#.

Flame Burst
Instant
Deals Fire damage to nearby enemies.

http://www.wowhead.com/spell=41126

Shadow Prison
Instant
Using the magic of Karabor, all enemies within the Black Temple are stunned for 30 sec.

http://www.wowhead.com/spell=40647

Shadow Parasite
Unlimited range
Instant 3 minute CD
A Shadow parasite burrows its way through the target, dealing 3000 Shadow damage every 2 sec for 10 sec. When the parasite is finished, it leaves the target and seeks new prey.

http://www.wowhead.com/spell=41917

Dark Barrage
Unlimited range
3 sec cast
A barrage of demonic magic deals 3000 Shadow damage to the target every 1 sec for 10 sec.

http://www.wowhead.com/spell=40585

Draw Soul
100 yd range
1.5 sec cast 2 sec cooldown
Deals 4500 to 5500 Shadow damage to any targets in front of the caster, healing for a portion of the damage dealt.

http://www.wowhead.com/spell=40904

That's a lot of abilities, and a lot of them are very original, while maintaining the flavor of the Demon Hunter from WC3.

I hope this helps, and from this we can have a more fruitful discussion.

Oh, and awesome post Golden Yak.

[Golden Yak]

Well if we're talking ideas for abilities, here's a couple WC3 ones I'd like to see translated into WoW. Some may exist already, but these are different!

Spellbreaker Abilities - Anti-magic melee-caster is actually pretty close to Demon Hunter style already, so there's some good stuff here.

Feed Back - Burnt mana with every physical attack, dealing extra damage based on mana burnt. Might be a viable replacement or expansion of the Mana Burn concept - toggle this ability on and off, costs resource for every physical attack while draining the enemy target's resource (mana, energy, etc.)

Control Magic - Takes control of an enemy summoned unit. In WC3 this was stuff like skeleton warriors, water elements, etc. Mostly little stuff. But imagine it in WoW - take control of a warlock's demon, a mage or shaman's elemental, a death knight's ghoul... any magical based creature. Could be temporary, could be permanent, forcing the enemy player to summon a new one. Good stuff for PvP.

Spell Steal - Transfers buffs from enemy units to your units. I think mages already have this actually. Maybe change it to a curse that transfers any beneficial spells cast on the target to you.

Bloodmage

Banish - In WC3, banish was a little different - it reduced your movement speed and made you immune to physical damage while making you more vulnerable to magic damage.
Siphon Mana - Drains mana from a target or transfers mana to a friendly unit. Could be some use there as a support spell for flagging healers/caster DPS.

Obsidian Destroyer - Technically a scourge unit, but their mana eating mechanics are sort've in line with the magic addiciton of blood elves, and they became demon hunters after following Illidan. Naga too. Plus they're kinda neat - make good Demon Form abilities.

Devour Mana - Absorbs buffs and debuffs in an AoE and transfers it into mana. Also did major damage to summoned units- legions of skeleton warriors just dissolved with a few Destroyers around back in WC3. Maybe in demon form have it replenish Demonic Fury.

Orb of Annihilation - Uses mana to deal AoE damage.

[anaxie]

Dark Ranger would be a good substitute imo.

We desperately need something else to use hunter weapons and agi mail. I support this in some fashion.

[Teriz]

You're trying way too hard here to pigeon-hole the DH into being purely the 4 abilities and 1 model from WC3. Probably to justify this shifting into a "well if warlocks have metamorphosis, we can't have Demon Hunter" discussion.

Yes, but not for the reasons you mention. Those 4 abilities form the core of the Demon Hunter archetype. As you can see from my post, there's a lot of other Demon Hunter abilities that Blizzard has added to the archetype in WoW. We can use those to create a solid DH class without compromising it by adding the DH class from Diablo 3.

[Keny]

Id suggest a 3 Spec class.

First Spec: A Melee Dps, somthing like a rogue+fury warrior combo, with his own special mechanics ofc...
Second Spec: A Leather wearing tank, with focus on dodge benefit and AoE.
Third Spec: A Ranged dps that use Bows/Xbows/Guns, somthing like a Dark ranger, without a pet, and some Shadowy spells.

[Teriz]

Well if we're talking ideas for abilities, here's a couple WC3 ones I'd like to see translated into WoW. Some may exist already, but these are different!

Spellbreaker Abilities - Anti-magic melee-caster is actually pretty close to Demon Hunter style already, so there's some good stuff here.

Feed Back - Burnt mana with every physical attack, dealing extra damage based on mana burnt. Might be a viable replacement or expansion of the Mana Burn concept - toggle this ability on and off, costs resource for every physical attack while draining the enemy target's resource (mana, energy, etc.)

Control Magic - Takes control of an enemy summoned unit. In WC3 this was stuff like skeleton warriors, water elements, etc. Mostly little stuff. But imagine it in WoW - take control of a warlock's demon, a mage or shaman's elemental, a death knight's ghoul... any magical based creature. Could be temporary, could be permanent, forcing the enemy player to summon a new one. Good stuff for PvP.

Spell Steal - Transfers buffs from enemy units to your units. I think mages already have this actually. Maybe change it to a curse that transfers any beneficial spells cast on the target to you.

Bloodmage

Banish - In WC3, banish was a little different - it reduced your movement speed and made you immune to physical damage while making you more vulnerable to magic damage.
Siphon Mana - Drains mana from a target or transfers mana to a friendly unit. Could be some use there as a support spell for flagging healers/caster DPS.

Obsidian Destroyer - Technically a scourge unit, but their mana eating mechanics are sort've in line with the magic addiciton of blood elves, and they became demon hunters after following Illidan. Naga too. Plus they're kinda neat - make good Demon Form abilities.

Devour Mana - Absorbs buffs and debuffs in an AoE and transfers it into mana. Also did major damage to summoned units- legions of skeleton warriors just dissolved with a few Destroyers around back in WC3. Maybe in demon form have it replenish Demonic Fury.

Orb of Annihilation - Uses mana to deal AoE damage.

Nice ideas Golden. Spellbreaker, Banish, and Mana Burn are already there, so an anti-magic theme within Demon Hunters already exists. Control Magic would be a nice addition to the spell list, as would Devour Mana. Devour Mana could be a passive ability that stacks as you attack, and you can release a powerful attack with Orb of Annihilation?

Based on your posts and others I've seen in this thread, I feel that the first 2 specs should be called Shadowflame and Spell Breaker. Shadowflame specializes in Shadow and Fire magic, which are used to enhance the Demon Hunter's melee abilities. It would be the more flashy spec. Spell Breaker would be more based around magic manipulation and control of other units' abilities.

I'm guessing the final spec should be a tanking spec that involves more of the physical attributes of the Demon Hunter. More based around its evasion and melee abilities. I really love your evasion idea from the Oculus. That's pretty damn brilliant.

Metamorphosis would simply be a cooldown like the old Warlock ability from Cataclysm. A 15-30 second CD that turns you into a demon and allows you to hurl fireballs at targets. Just a way to give you some ranged abilities to break up the melee stuff. Metamorphosis would be class wide in this case.

---------- Post added 2013-02-18 at 09:59 PM ----------

Id suggest a 3 Spec class.

First Spec: A Melee Dps, somthing like a rogue+fury warrior combo, with his own special mechanics ofc...
Second Spec: A Leather wearing tank, with focus on dodge benefit and AoE.
Third Spec: A Ranged dps that use Bows/Xbows/Guns, somthing like a Dark ranger, without a pet, and some Shadowy spells.

The first 2 are good. I think we should avoid the Diablo 3 class if we're pushing for the WC3 version.


I think for this class, the melee should represent a battle-mage archetype. A melee class that combines ranged spells with melee abilities. Similar to Enhancement Shaman and Frost DKs. It also addresses Yak's issue with being a melee and having an opponent hop across the room away from you.

[Rhamses]

I voted for this new class to be similar to the Warcraft 3 version;



This is the only Demon Hunter I recognize.

[Teriz]

I voted for this new class to be similar to the Warcraft 3 version;



This is the only Demon Hunter I recognize.

Seems you're not alone in this viewpoint. Through the (paltry) poll results, most would agree with you.

Thanks for everyone's participation. I think I got the answer I was looking for.

[Bladivine]

I think we should review it lorewisely too by reviewing some classes and stating their difference.

Well the actual playable relatated classes to DH are: Warlock, Rogue, Hunter and warrior.

Warrior: A brave champion who uses plate and Phisical combat abilities out of raw power and fury.

Hunter: a Ranged champion who uses leather to hunt their prey down.

Warlock: A "champion" who seeks a darker path of magic as it feels more powerfull.

Rogue: a Bandit who hides in the shadow (phisical) to Kill their enemies with their speed and agility.

Demon Hunter: Fast Swashbucklers who have seek to enchance their power by seeking demonic power to erradicate the demons.

Differnece between Warrior and DH: Actually this two classes are not at all related and the only thing they share is that both do Meele combat.

Difference between Hunter and DH: All, the only thing they have in common is the word Hunter and the fact that they hunt....

Differnece between Warlock and DH: Actually only the demon spec is lorewisely similar to the DH(maybe des a bit), although warlock enslaved them while DH consume them. (and of course one is ranged and the other Melee)

Difference between Rogue and DH: I find more similarities with rogues than any other class actually, howeveer rogues dont use any kind of magic they hide in the shadow and until recently they have started the shadowy path, However Demon hunter dont rely much on shadow energy, they pursue more demonic magic and fire.

---------- Post added 2013-02-18 at 07:57 PM ----------

Now the possible 3 spec talent I can think off right is as follow.

Demonology: A demon hunter who specialize in consuming demon power and enchancing him with them. They specialize in imbuiding their weapons and enemies with demonic auras to increase their damage and their powers. The more demonic he feels the powerfull he becomes.( melee dps)

Combat; a demon hunter who specialized in melee combat, Who relies overcoming their foes by out speeding them and using dodge and parry abilities to avoid any damage and demonic power to protect from magic. ( melee tank)

Fel: a Demon hunter who relies mostly on their arcane power, resistance and vision. They would rely stealing and burning mana to convert it into fel magic to enpower them. In other words and magic addict. although it wouldn't certainly be spell much more like adding more physical strenght and speed via fel magic. (melee dps and great buffer to not only him but the raid although their buffs appear in the midst of the fight instead.)

[Totle]

Demon Hunters wear either Leather, Cloth, or nothing.
They are Dual Wielding Melee.

We have 2 DW melee leather so that isn't going to work.
Melee cloth? It's certainly new but we already have 3 cloth wearers.
Melee? How many more melee classes do we need?
Iconic abilities are all used by other classes.

-------------------------------------------
Diablo 3 demon hunter
- Wears Mail
- Uses Ranged Weapons

Both of these are unfilled niches in WoW. If they are going to be adding a demon hunter, it will be based off of the D3 one and will probably be a Dark Ranger like Sylvanas.

[ShadowJester]

Teriz a big problem is you just focus on the fact that the WC3 DH moves have already been "claimed" by other classes. But look at the Death Knight from WC3. His Abilities, are very few, Death Coil, Death Pact, Unholy Aura, and Raise Dead. Where did obliterate come from, or blood worms, or summon gargoyle, icy touch, or diseases come from? Other undead hero units or just made up on the spot. So why can't that happen for the Demon Hunter?

Plus what Golden said about DH Meta being slightly different and borrowing a few things from spellbreakers and blood mages. A DH hunter class is totally viable, with a Tank/Melee/Caster spec choice.

[Rhozul]

Should of had two more options on this:

1) Fourth Warlock Spec
2) Wouldn't work.

I'm honestly leaning towards the Warlock spec. There's not enough Demon Hunter material to build an entire class around and both from a lore and mechanics perspective, making the Demon Hunter a Warlock spec just works better. Especially when you consider that the biggest Lore demon hunter (illidan) was a Mage who was corrupted by an immense amount of fel magic (Mage + Fel = Warlock). He just learned how to Dual Wield his weapons.

[Xeraxis]

Dual Wielding and the weapon not being optimized for your spec is a bit different than what you were talking about. Prot Warriors can still use 2H weapons, especially if they switch stances. The Hunter and Shaman issues you mention are class-wide. What you're talking about is marrying two completely different class concepts. One is magic-based melee, and the other is physical ranged combat. The two don't really go together.

I take it when people mention they play a Boomkin and offspec Feral you just stick your fingers in your ears/cover your eyes so you can't hear them/see them.

[Austilias]

I take it when people mention they play a Boomkin and offspec Feral you just stick your fingers in your ears/cover your eyes so you can't hear them/see them.

This is Teriz we're talking about here; the Ostrich approach is the method of choice.

[Teriz]

I take it when people mention they play a Boomkin and offspec Feral you just stick your fingers in your ears/cover your eyes so you can't hear them/see them.

Last I checked, all Druids could use the same weapons and wore leather armor. They also shapeshift into different roles. Its not the same thing.

---------- Post added 2013-02-19 at 03:56 AM ----------

Teriz a big problem is you just focus on the fact that the WC3 DH moves have already been "claimed" by other classes. But look at the Death Knight from WC3. His Abilities, are very few, Death Coil, Death Pact, Unholy Aura, and Raise Dead. Where did obliterate come from, or blood worms, or summon gargoyle, icy touch, or diseases come from? Other undead hero units or just made up on the spot. So why can't that happen for the Demon Hunter?

Plus what Golden said about DH Meta being slightly different and borrowing a few things from spellbreakers and blood mages. A DH hunter class is totally viable, with a Tank/Melee/Caster spec choice.

Check out post #27. Also I largely agreed with Golden Yak's assessment in general.

The reason you can't do what Blizzard did with DKs is because Night Elf heroes don't align well with the Demon Hunter theme. Most Night Elf abilities went to Druids. A far cry from the Demonic and Melee abilities in the Demon Hunter theme.