Guilds Falling Apart a Lot This Patch

[judgementofantonidas]

I don't think you're stupid enough to believe what you just typed there.

Comparing the number of raiders at the end of a nine month tier, when people will have long since seen the content they wanted or were able to see, to the number struggling in progression on a tier most haven't cleared on normal model, is meaningless at best and dishonest at worst. It evidence only for the lack of integrity of those putting the argument forward.

Granted you cannot truly rate the success of the expansion until it is over, however AT THIS POINT which is the end of a tier there are fewer people how have quit than quit during dragonsoul even with the increase in difficulty.

[Harekrsna]

Funny, because wowprogress says otherwise.

According to wow progress, 39545 guilds killed Stone Guards, and 62648 killed Morchok.

If there are so many people raiding, why 23k more guils killed Morchok than Stone Guards?

http://www.wowprogress.com/rating.tier13

http://www.wowprogress.com/

First off you can't look at the first boss in a raid tier and say that is what defines a raiding group, because any pug can walk into the raid and kill the first boss just like any casual non-raiding guild could do that.

Second, DS was "current" content for 4 months longer than Tier 14 has been out, and saw 7 nerfs for a total of 35% nerf to the raid on both normal and heroic difficulty, Tier 14 has seen no nerfs yet.

Third, first tier raids are generally seen less often because fewer people are at the level cap and have put in the efforts to gear up adequately in a first-tier environment (in subsequent tiers it becomes easier to get to the appropriate ilvl to join raid groups, or it has the last two expansions).

The more appropriate way to check how this first tier is going as compared to Cataclysm would be to compare Tier 11 to Tier 14 (and even this is shaky because other guilds had time to go back in Tier 12 to clear the content and get credit for it on wowprogress).

When you do that though you'll see that 33% (33,000) of raiding guilds managed to kill Halfus (considered the easiest heroic boss in T11) compared to the current 31% (13,000) of guilds killing H: Stone Guards.

Obviously this tact has its issues as more guilds in Tier 12 went back and cleared content afterwards so you'd have to find a snapshot for Tier 11 when the tier ended to get more accurate numbers. Also Tier 11 itself ran longer than Tier 14 has.

Clearly though it would seem that more raiding guilds existed at the beginning of Cataclysm than exist at the beginning of MoP. But that could have been caused by the lackluster raid known as Dragon Soul when guilds fell apart by the thousands when they got 8/8H with half a year left to farm content.

[judgementofantonidas]

Quoting for the lulz, given the post immediately above it.

Apologies for doing it, but was too good not to.

no appologies needed. MOST of us are adults here and conducting ourselves as such.

[fangless]

Because what those numbers are showing are that:

Either a lot less people are raiding

or

The same or more people are trying, but the tier tunning is so bad, that at least 23k guilds have been trying to kill the first boss of the tier for months unsuccessfully, which i dont think so, since Stone Guards is pretty easy.

You're actually quantifying the difficulty of the raid, not the success. Unless all that matters to you before you call any content a success is that more people kill it than others. That's quite silly, imho. I do not care how many people kill Stone Guards, that has no bearing on how I feel about the content inside MSV, HoF or Terrace.

That said, DS had a 35% buff at the end of Cataclysm, when stat sites were STILL tracking kills. Stone Guards are much harder than Morchok, flat out (with or without the DS nerf). It's probably more fair to compare Cataclysm entry raids to MSV numbers, but I would concede that more people were doing content years ago than now, easily.

[Deleted]

no appologies needed. MOST of us are adults here and conducting ourselves as such.

I thought that was the case, what with your retraction of previously stated position once new data invalidated and so on.

I also ow fangless an apology - a while ago we were debating what T14 was going to be like. I was convinced they wouldn't make the T11 mistake difficulty wise ever again. He said otherwise - so GJ fangless on figuring out blizzes boneheadedness better than I did.

[judgementofantonidas]

First off you can't look at the first boss in a raid tier and say that is what defines a raiding group, because any pug can walk into the raid and kill the first boss just like any casual non-raiding guild could do that.

Second, DS was "current" content for 4 months longer than Tier 14 has been out, and saw 7 nerfs for a total of 35% nerf to the raid on both normal and heroic difficulty, Tier 14 has seen no nerfs yet.

Third, first tier raids are generally seen less often because fewer people are at the level cap and have put in the efforts to gear up adequately in a first-tier environment (in subsequent tiers it becomes easier to get to the appropriate ilvl to join raid groups, or it has the last two expansions).

The more appropriate way to check how this first tier is going as compared to Cataclysm would be to compare Tier 11 to Tier 14 (and even this is shaky because other guilds had time to go back in Tier 12 to clear the content and get credit for it on wowprogress).

When you do that though you'll see that 33% (33,000) of raiding guilds managed to kill Halfus (considered the easiest heroic boss in T11) compared to the current 31% (13,000) of guilds killing H: Stone Guards.

Obviously this tact has its issues as more guilds in Tier 12 went back and cleared content afterwards so you'd have to find a snapshot for Tier 11 when the tier ended to get more accurate numbers. Also Tier 11 itself ran longer than Tier 14 has.

Clearly though it would seem that more raiding guilds existed at the beginning of Cataclysm than exist at the beginning of MoP. But that could have been caused by the lackluster raid known as Dragon Soul when guilds fell apart by the thousands when they got 8/8H with half a year left to farm content.

I can tell you from farming it and watching the difficulty of each boss and what it took to down them that MSV has seen three nerfs to Elegon alone. Only one of which was publishe by Blizz.

In a couple of weeks it will get an across the board nerf of 10% and you can real ID raid it.

Not that any of this is relavant to the fact there are many more guilds trying to down the content now than there were at the end of DS.

[Crashdummy]

You're actually quantifying the difficulty of the raid, not the success. Unless all that matters to you before you call any content a success is that more people kill it than others. That's quite silly, imho. I do not care how many people kill Stone Guards, that has no bearing on how I feel about the content inside MSV, HoF or Terrace.

That said, DS had a 30% buff at the end of Cataclysm, when stat sites were STILL tracking kills. Stone Guards are much harder than Morchok, flat out (with or without the DS nerf). It's probably more fair to compare Cataclysm entry raids to MSV numbers, but I would concede that more people were doing content years ago than now, easily.

No, the argument of some people here is that more people are RAIDING in t14 than in t13.

Yet less people killed THE VERY FIRST BOSS of the tier.

Assumming 100% of the guilds raiding killed MOrchok, that means at more than 23k guilds that are now raiding havent killed the easiest boss in the tier (assuming we belive those saying more guilds are raiding).

So yes, i would quantify the success of a tier is 23k GUILDS TRYING to kill Normal bosses cant down a single boss (which i believe is incorect, i believe less people are raiding now than in DS).

The buff is irrelevant, what people here are saying is that MORE GUILDS are raiding now that in DS. Numbers says otherwise. Numbers say less people are raiding now than in DS or that T14 is so, so difficult that 23K guilds have been trying to kill a boss for months unsuccesfully (which i believe its wrong).

[judgementofantonidas]

No, the argument of some people here is that more people are RAIDING in t14 than in t13.

Yet less people killed THE VERY FIRST BOSS of the tier.

Assumming 100% of the guilds raiding killed MOrchok, that means at more than 23k guilds that are now raiding havent killed the easiest boss in the tier (assuming we belive those saying more guilds are raiding).

So yes, i would quantify the success of a tier is 23k GUILDS TRYING to kill Normal bosses cant down a single boss (which i believ is incorect, i belive less people are raiding now than in DS).

The buff is irrelevant, what people here are sayign is that MORE GUILDS are raiding now that in DS. Numbers says otherwise. Numbers say less people are raiding now than in DS or that T14 is so, so difficult that 23K guilds have been trying to kill a boss for months unsuccesfully (which i believe its wrong).

I know of many players incapable of passing stone guardians on a dependable basis. I have a newly formed group in my guild that sits in that boat. Taking the week away from farming it with my group to get them up to speed.

[Osmeric]

And the real cool numbers on raid participation will come in T15, when we see how many guilds even start trying normal modes, especially since maybe 6K guilds are even at T15 normal entry ilvl.

Some may try to gear up in nerfed T14, but I think most will just throw in the towel, if they haven't already.

---------- Post added 2013-02-19 at 07:18 PM ----------

I know of many players incapable of passing stone guardians on a dependable basis. I have a newly formed group in my guild that sits in that boat. Taking the week away from farming it with my group to get them up to speed.

They'd still be counted as having downed SG if they had done so even once.

[Crashdummy]

I know of many players incapable of passing stone guardians on a dependable basis. I have a newly formed group in my guild that sits in that boat. Taking the week away from farming it with my group to get them up to speed.

I never said dependable basis. Those numbers show that more than 23k guilds TRYING (because people claim there are more guilds raiding now than in DS) have NEVER killed Stone Guards Normal, even in their easy combination.

Your guilds failing group is irrelevant, because your guild has the kill from YOUR group.

[ro9ue]

The guy who said something like 'I noticed since vanilla a tread of people coming and going', while funny and true, isn't what this thread is about. From vanilla until the peak in wrath, guild health was always getting better. Communities were stronger, raiding was so accessible and fun. When Blizzard listened to the 5% of the elitist players who said make things harder, they got Cataclysm, and everything since 4.0 has been slowly getting worse. Look at any WoW Progress or stat tracking graphic on the internet. Raiding is less popular, the game is less popular, and it will slowly keep turning downhill until they bring back how easy and fun it was in Wrath.

I played in vanilla and did server firsts on Stonemaul (rag, AQ, etc). I never cared about it being difficult so i could be 'different' from other players because it was just ultimately i had more time on my hands than other players. How WoW was in wrath, all my friends could jump into dungeons and raids and clear shit, grind reps in a few days, etc and love the game. Straight up, this is a game. It's an online game to hang out, kill shit and move on. Not stress about and make sure you log in every day to do some retarded repetitive dailies to fill another bar up over two months. Any online / social game really is better off when theres just more people, straight up. Put some challenging heroic modes for the 5%, go ahead... no one cares. Let the people who want to have fun do the normal modes and make it easy.

[fangless]

I thought that was the case, what with your retraction of previously stated position once new data invalidated and so on.

I also ow fangless an apology - a while ago we were debating what T14 was going to be like. I was convinced they wouldn't make the T11 mistake difficulty wise ever again. He said otherwise - so GJ fangless on figuring out blizzes boneheadedness better than I did.

LOL, I don't even remember such a thing. Thanks I think o_O

And the real cool numbers on raid participation will come in T15, when we see how many guilds even start trying normal modes

I agree. I sincerely hope that guilds short of completing T14 stick with it, and realize that their progression is still relevant. Not all guilds are the same, hence why there are guilds at all levels of progression right now. It's just too bad that the mindset of players right now is that if you aren't clearing raids by each patch, you're wasting your time and should just give up.

By 5.2, T14 will be nerfed (undeserved, but another topic), and allow guilds to make their way into T15. By the time 5.4/T16 hits, some guilds will continue to be on the cutting edge, some will be still doing T15, and some may even just starting to pug/casually do T14. This isn't a bad thing, it's just how progression goes.

[judgementofantonidas]

And the real cool numbers on raid participation will come in T15, when we see how many guilds even start trying normal modes, especially since maybe 6K guilds are even at T15 normal ilvl.

Some may try to gear up in nerfed T14, but I think most will just throw in the towel, if they haven't already.

---------- Post added 2013-02-19 at 07:18 PM ----------



They'd still be counted as having downed SG if they had done so even once.

right. and I only tried to make a statement based on personal knowldege and extrapolate that if there are guild groups in a raiding guild that has the content on farm that cannot even get past the first boss then it is logical to assume that there are guilds and definitely pug groups that have that same difficulty.

---------- Post added 2013-02-19 at 02:22 PM ----------

I never said dependable basis. Those numbers show that more than 23k guilds TRYING (because people claim there are more guilds raiding now than in DS) have NEVER killed Stone Guards Normal, even in their easy combination.

Your guilds failing group is irrelevant, because your guild has the kill from YOUR group.

already responded to osmeric's near identical post

[darklady]

I have a question for the people saying their guild is falling apart now. What's your raiding schedule? Do you raid for more than 9 hours per week? On my realm, the only guilds that are having problems are the ones that insist on raiding for 12-16 hours per week. There's just too much grind this expansion to raid that much. The dailies are technically optional, but the coins you get from doing them do help with the gearing process, especially in a 10 man. I'm not wow rich, so I have to farm on my main and level my 2 alts to keep my raid supplies up. This is the case for many others. I'm in a guild that only raids 8 hours per week. We raid for 3 hrs on Tues and Thurs, and an optional 2 hrs on Sundays only if we are on the brink of a kill. We had to get efficient about raiding. Extending raid ID's for progression, using the same macros, good raid awareness, etc. We also had to accept that progression would be slower. We're 16/16 normal and 5/16HM. Not as progressed as the top guilds on the realm, but we're more progressed than guilds that raid more and are better geared. Point is, this schedule allows us to raid and do the other PvE content, and not get burned out. More people should have listened to those Pandarians when they said to "Slow down. Life is meant to be savored."

[isadorr]

And the real cool numbers on raid participation will come in T15, when we see how many guilds even start trying normal modes, especially since maybe 6K guilds are even at T15 normal ilvl.

Some may try to gear up in nerfed T14, but I think most will just throw in the towel, if they haven't already.

---------- Post added 2013-02-19 at 07:18 PM ----------



They'd still be counted as having downed SG if they had done so even once.

Has anyone thought to get better at the game? As stupid as that sounds I have tried helping many friends in supposed,"Progression," guilds only to see that most of their raid group didnt know their class. They thought they did but they were way off and pulling horrendous numbers. People say something is too hard then watch someone walk through it in blues, greens and do a full clear in normal mode. What is the answer to that? Low ilvl and full clear normal mode makes it sound like the nerfing and giving away loot isnt working. Nerfing content 35% and making people happy so they feel like good raiders then they are hit with a normal raid and fail miserably isnt the game, it is the player base.

[Deleted]

I'm suprprised about the amount of people in this thread who don't raid, and yet still are expert's in the subjects.
Guys if you don't raid maybe you should check pvp, scenarios, pet battles, or whatever you do, threads, and leave content that it's not even for you alone?

[Harekrsna]

I can tell you from farming it and watching the difficulty of each boss and what it took to down them that MSV has seen three nerfs to Elegon alone. Only one of which was publishe by Blizz.

In a couple of weeks it will get an across the board nerf of 10% and you can real ID raid it.

Not that any of this is relavant to the fact there are many more guilds trying to down the content now than there were at the end of DS.

What exactly is the argument? That is a comparison to apples and oranges, DS ran nearly a year- it was the longest lived tier with the least amount of bosses. This is the exact opposite kind of tier, most bosses least amount of time to finish them all.

Nerfs to Elegon were all on normal mode (with the exception to the nerf that put back in dmg output from spark explosions and an hp reduction to make up for it), those are targeted nerfs to correct over-tuned encounters not baseline nerfs to make bad players able to clear content. The only heroic nerf I know of outside of that is the nerfs to Empress' 10-man dmg to prevent 4 healing, and heroic-elite dmg output from the curse (and the hotfix where it was doubling for no reason).

But the rest of these "nerfs" were more about correcting overtuning, and when the patch ends who cares whether its nerfed or not any half-decent guild will be in ToT clearing that.

[ro9ue]

The reason with the Stone Guards in my opinion is that it's just too hard for an entry level boss for 80% of guilds. The upper eschelon might laugh and say LOL U CANT KILL STONE GUARDS. But they don't have the casual mentality. Any guild in the world could go into DS and kill Morchok and Yorsahj normal. So what does this mean?

- Casual guilds who have to deal with a rotating roster more often than stable guilds have to constantly retrain and reteach new players
- Casual guilds are actually getting some taste of success to further incentivize continuing
- Casual guilds are actually getting loot to gear up players to make later encounters easier

There were weeks we'd clear up to spirit binder no problem. Then we'd have 2-3 slots that were like a rotating door and the next week we'd have problems on the dogs. So we'd basically never have anything on farm because it's so hard to keep players in this tier and having to constantly get new people sucked. Being on a shit server only makes it worse because you can't be picky. You need to just take what you can get, and usually it's the guy who stands in fire.

[judgementofantonidas]

I have a question for the people saying their guild is falling apart now. What's your raiding schedule? Do you raid for more than 9 hours per week? On my realm, the only guilds that are having problems are the ones that insist on raiding for 12-16 hours per week. There's just too much grind this expansion to raid that much. The dailies are technically optional, but the coins you get from doing them do help with the gearing process, especially in a 10 man. I'm not wow rich, so I have to farm on my main and level my 2 alts to keep my raid supplies up. This is the case for many others. I'm in a guild that only raids 8 hours per week. We raid for 3 hrs on Tues and Thurs, and an optional 2 hrs on Sundays only if we are on the brink of a kill. We had to get efficient about raiding. Extending raid ID's for progression, using the same macros, good raid awareness, etc. We also had to accept that progression would be slower. We're 16/16 normal and 5/16HM. Not as progressed as the top guilds on the realm, but we're more progressed than guilds that raid more and are better geared. Point is, this schedule allows us to raid and do the other PvE content, and not get burned out. More people should have listened to those Pandarians when they said to "Slow down. Life is meant to be savored."

We raid 5-8pm pst tues-thurs with some sundays and mondays being catch up days Expendables raid group
We raid 8-11pm pst tues,weds,fri Average Joes raid group
We raid 10am to 1pm sat-sun Weekend Warriors raid group

[Crashdummy]

right. and I only tried to make a statement based on personal knowldege and extrapolate that if there are guild groups in a raiding guild that has the content on farm that cannot even get past the first boss then it is logical to assume that there are guilds and definitely pug groups that have that same difficulty.

---------- Post added 2013-02-19 at 02:22 PM ----------



already responded to osmeric's near identical post

So, as i already asked you many times, you do actually believe more than 23k guilds TRYING have yet to kill a single boss in the tier.

I dont believe that, but if that's the case, then i wouldnt call the tier successfully, since 40% of the guilds trying cant kill a single boss (not talking about finishing it).