[Priest] 5.2 PTR notes

[HPLathus]

Do I really need to quote you even more? Mind saving me the effort and go look through your own posting history?



and I'll repeat myself. If that's what you're doing, why are you listing single target abilities from sps while not listing raid wide abilities from the other classes?



I suppose this means that you advocate the removal of any utility from pures as well? Otherwise it kinda means that there's no point to ever bring a hybrid. Either way it's not a proper argument against sps having competitive dps, when blizzard has stated that this is their design intent.

Quote my old posts all you want, I have said nothing in this post that is rude or condescending to you. However, you most certainly have on several occasions now.



I am not saying remove all utility from classes, but blizz needs to make up their mind if they want hybrids to be pure dps classes now or not, because the classes like spriest that were originally more hybrid based. Blizz said they wanted to be on level with everyone else, yet time and time again, they what seems to be, purpously keep them under par of other more pure DPS classes.


I know blizz is saying one thing, but their actions for the most part are completely opposite at first, then they do major change patches like this basically saying how they effed up all along...

[Martinussen]

I don't see how we're significantly below every DPS class now, and I don't see how buffing other low specs AND us makes us worse off. I would imagine that certain people would only be satisfied if shadow was 10% above everyone else.

Once you reach 500+ ilvl the rest of the raid pulls ahead in burst and sustained dps compared to spriests. Sure, on some fights spriests are really good (stone guards and elegon,) but usually we'll just always stay behind other classes. I notice again and again the same classes doing higests burst and best sustained dps on bosses, while spriests lay behind. Sure when the rest of the raid were around 480-485 i could be in top 3 in my 10man raid group. Now at 504 ilvl in a 25 hc raiding group, i feel used to 8th spot no matter how well i play my rotation.

[DeiVias]

The problem is we don't scale worth a damn compared to some other classes and blizzard don't do preventive changes, they wait till there is a problem and then decide hey we better stick a bandaid on this, we'll probably be ok at the start of 5.2 but once everyone starts getting heroic gear we'll most likely be back to where we are right now.

I don't see how we're significantly below every DPS class now

Do you raid heroics? i guess not if that's how you see us.

And I might add with only pushing one button.

Id love to know the 1 button you use to be competitive, unless you raid big trash packs.

[Deleted]

Quote my old posts all you want, I have said nothing in this post that is rude or condescending to you. However, you most certainly have on several occasions now.

Yes, you are obviously the one who should decide if I find a post rude or condescending (while also deciding if my posts are condescending or rude:P), and if not against me your posts against other users would definitely be considered condescening by any objective reader (I think I quoted a few just a page or two back). Personally I don't find it rude to call your previous post stupid, I found it to be an accurate description, albeit possibly a bit blunt.

I am not saying remove all utility from classes, but blizz needs to make up their mind if they want hybrids to be pure dps classes now or not, because the classes like spriest that were originally more hybrid based. Blizz said they wanted to be on level with everyone else, yet time and time again, they what seems to be, purpously keep them under par of other more pure DPS classes.

I know blizz is saying one thing, but their actions for the most part are completely opposite at first, then they do major change patches like this basically saying how they effed up all along...

If spriests and pures were the only specs in the game you'd have a point, but as it stands several hybrid dps specs are currently up there with the pures (see Sprints post), while sps aren't.

[Yvaelle]

People are right to still be concerned about our scaling, our scaling is still the worst of all dps specs even after the buffs we've gotten: that's concerning. Even with the buffs, we're still probably going to come out as the lowest DPS spec again in 5.2, and by heroic parses we're going to (because of bad scaling) slip even further behind than we were at the start of 5.2: again, concerning.

Our ability to maximize DPS gains out of the new wrathion legendary and the crit trinket should lead to a relative boost to shadow which is not as accessible to other specs. Even with the nerf to crit snapshotting, refreshing dots during the crit trinket will lead to 18 seconds of crit Pain ticks, which will extend the duration of Pain by another ~18 or so seconds (but then end, it won't continue indefinitely now) - if that application overlaps with say, Bloodlust, or Wrathion mini-lust, or power infusion - it will retain those haste bonuses for the full ~40 seconds. That synergy is almost unique to shadow in 5.2 - and will provide a relative DPS gain to Shadow by gearing right and being very mindful of these procs and re-applications.

That should make people a little hopeful. If we do all that right, we won't be the worst dps in single target - so that's an improvement. It's still a very long way from being a great single target DPS spec, and we're still going to be behind in multi-dot to the other multi-dotters (but the Shadowform buff will help that a bit), and our AoE still won't be demo lock aoe (but the shadowform buff will help this also). So, overall, our relative position in 5.2 will be better than our position in 5.1 if we make good use of these proc effects and the synergies they provide.

Generally, it's good news.

---------- Post added 2013-02-21 at 12:22 AM ----------

Id love to know the 1 button you use to be competitive, unless you raid big trash packs.

I don't know why I found this as funny as I did, but I literally nearly laughed my way onto the floor. Where can I sign up for trash pack-only raiding?

[Martinussen]

True Yvaelle, but this is assuming all the gear has been acquired first, which can be hindered by the RNG gods not recieving their weekly virgin sacrifice before every reset.

I dont want my class to be bound to having end game trinkets and such to be competitive.

[Deleted]

I agree entirely Yvalle, not much else to say really. We'll definitely be in a better spot in 5.2 than 5.1 (and it's probably enough to not allow my undergeared alt to outdps my main anymore:P), but I also feel like there's room for further improvements.

[Yvaelle]

True Yvaelle, but this is assuming all the gear has been acquired first, which can be hindered by the RNG gods not recieving their weekly virgin sacrifice before every reset.

I dont want my class to be bound to having end game trinkets and such to be competitive.

I agree, being bound to 4 second every 2 minute procs, and legendary gems, and hoping they coincide - is not the right way to balance a class (especcially since it obviously wasn't intended for us to have as much proc synergy as we do in 5.2, which is why they pre-nerfed our crit snapshots to prevent it from working even if it did magically align).

I tweeted GC thanking him for 25% Shadowform, but also asking if we'd see 30% Shadowform if we still proved low in testing - right after I made that post actually It could be the case that 25% Shadowform was still an incremental buff.

[Martinussen]

Well the easiest way to fix shadows low avg dps would be to just buff the signature ability of a shadow priest: Shadow form. If we need 5% or 10% more dps to be competetive i think the easiest way to fix that would be to just buff the dmg increase from Shadowform. Seems like blizzard agrees on that.

Im happy with overall changes, though i'd love to see a baseline burst CD for spriests so we didnt have to spec into our only real CD.

I'd love for this glyph to be implemented.

Glyph of Shadow Orbs: For every 20 seconds spent outside of combat you generate 1 Shadow orb.

This could be so spriests atleast would have a DP to start out with in PVE fights giving us much better burst at start, aswell as not allowing pvp spriest to stay out of combat to generate a huge amount of DPs (i dont pvp but i assume you dont stay out of combat for 20 seconds....)

A more fitting burst CD for spriests could be something like Overwhelming Shadows: Calls upon dark powers and engulfs the priest in shadow energies, increasing their shadow dmg by X% and reduces the cooldown of Mind Blast by 2 seconds. Lasts 10 seconds

This is the kind of burst CD that would be awesome as hell. It could have a cool visual transforming the priest or making shadows whirl around him or something.

But it might be op in pvp i guess. I know nothing of pvp so i cant tell if priests need changes and if so, where.

[Drye]

People are right to still be concerned about our scaling, our scaling is still the worst of all dps specs even after the buffs we've gotten: that's concerning. Even with the buffs, we're still probably going to come out as the lowest DPS spec again in 5.2, and by heroic parses we're going to (because of bad scaling) slip even further behind than we were at the start of 5.2: again, concerning.

Our ability to maximize DPS gains out of the new wrathion legendary and the crit trinket should lead to a relative boost to shadow which is not as accessible to other specs. Even with the nerf to crit snapshotting, refreshing dots during the crit trinket will lead to 18 seconds of crit Pain ticks, which will extend the duration of Pain by another ~18 or so seconds (but then end, it won't continue indefinitely now) - if that application overlaps with say, Bloodlust, or Wrathion mini-lust, or power infusion - it will retain those haste bonuses for the full ~40 seconds. That synergy is almost unique to shadow in 5.2 - and will provide a relative DPS gain to Shadow by gearing right and being very mindful of these procs and re-applications.

That should make people a little hopeful. If we do all that right, we won't be the worst dps in single target - so that's an improvement. It's still a very long way from being a great single target DPS spec, and we're still going to be behind in multi-dot to the other multi-dotters (but the Shadowform buff will help that a bit), and our AoE still won't be demo lock aoe (but the shadowform buff will help this also). So, overall, our relative position in 5.2 will be better than our position in 5.1 if we make good use of these proc effects and the synergies they provide.

I would really love to see where numbers are right now. As for scaling, they will refuse to say its the reason for low dps because of how our class works, unless we get a revamp in some way, our scaling won't change.

[Deleted]

I would really love to see where numbers are right now. As for scaling, they will refuse to say its the reason for low dps because of how our class works, unless we get a revamp in some way, our scaling won't change.

Could you clarify? Increasing any ability (in particular shadowform) by a percentage (=not only the base damage) will result in our scaling being improved, there's no need to revamp the spec for this to happen.

[Halda]

I agree with Yvaelle that when played right Shadow can now pull it's weight.

But i'm really worriend about our dps on the move, now (5.1) we can spam SWP and even if it's weak it's still something to do and works in most cases.
But in 5.2 our mobility took a hit with the nerf of the glyph of minde spike, furthermore when you got a good snapshot on your SWP(be it crit trinket or legendary metagem), it will really hurt us to refresh it, and i'm afraid that in some cases we will not even cast anything when moving to keep our snapshot intact.

I'm also worried is the state of an "average" Shadow priest who will probably not even think of refreshing his dots (or do it wrong), will probably be close to dead last.

[Drye]

Could you clarify? Increasing any ability (in particular shadowform) by a percentage (=not only the base damage) will result in our scaling being improved, there's no need to revamp the spec for this to happen.

you are right it does increase scaling, however we still wont scale as well as other class by how our rotation works. For instance, fire mages, they gain so much from crit because it has other passive things it does. Like crit mass/hotstreak prcs, both scale insanly well. We really dont get that much from secondary stats other than mastery having synergy with dots/procs and even then its only 57% of our base dmg normally.

[Aica]

It's less than a 4.15% buff, since Shadowform doesn't affect Shadowfriend.

[Deleted]

you are right it does increase scaling, however we still wont scale as well as other class by how our rotation works. For instance, fire mages, they gain so much from crit because it has other passive things it does. Like crit mass/hotstreak prcs, both scale insanly well. We really dont get that much from secondary stats other than mastery having synergy with dots/procs and even then its only 57% of our base dmg normally.

Well, if our base coefficients are the same ofc, but it can easily be solved by just slapping more percentages of damage on our spells. Changing our mechanics might be a neater solution (and result in comparatively stronger secondaries), but either does the job.

[Drye]

Well, if our base coefficients are the same ofc, but it can easily be solved by just slapping more percentages of damage on our spells. Changing our mechanics might be a neater solution (and result in comparatively stronger secondaries), but either does the job.

There's a very large difference between mages having a 5.6 int per dps compared to our 3.2 and thier secondary stats scale almost 2 times as quickly as ours. Our rotation just doesn't get as much out of stats as others.

[Deleted]

There's a very large difference between mages having a 5.6 int per dps compared to our 3.2 and thier secondary stats scale almost 2 times as quickly as ours. Our rotation just doesn't get as much out of stats as others.

I don't think those are the numbers I have, but yes even if they would get ~50% more from each stat we'd be just fine if they increased the scaling damage of all our spells by 50%:P. Suggesting that a guy who has absolutely no clue about how our class works (GC) changes our rotation might just end in a complete mess.

[espoire]

Shadow Priest: Vampiric Embrace, dispersion, mana hymn{big one}, a lot of self heals, shelds and offer offspec tranqs when symbiosised

Mages: time warp...
Warlocks: Battle res and a portal, some self healing and self cooldowns
Rogues: Nothing extremley useful for the raid
Warriors: Rallying Cry

Either you're not very familliar with the other specs, or you're being biased. Pure (spell) DPS have similar or better utility to Shadow, and still do way more damage.

Mages:

• 24 sec ranged interrupt
• time warp
• ice block/cauterize/alter time/temporal shield (all equivalent to Dispersion)
• mage food
• 10% spell power and 5% spell crit
• spellsteal
• remove curse
• ring of frost
• instant 30% hp
• ice barrier, equivalent to shadow shield, but self only and does not interfere with disc priests
• awesome kiting
• invisibility - fast wipe recovery for the raid

Warlocks:

• 24 sec ranged interrupt
• brez
• self-portal
• group portal
• healthstones - possibly the most OP utility ever
• 5% stamina
• 10% spell power
• 5% magic damage
• singe magic
• devour magic
• dark bargain + unending resolve (again, equivalent to dispersion)
• great single-target CC
• amazing multi-DoT and burst cooldowns
• a lot of self heals (GoSac = passive 2% / 5sec, drain/harvest life, instant 30%, 20% returned by primary nuke, 20% returned by AoE DoT)

Shadow Priest:

• 45 sec ranged interrupt
• Vampiric Embrace
• Dispersion
• Mana Hymn (12% to the 3 lowest mana; not always healers)
• 5% stamina
• 5% spell haste
• Devouring Plague (~30% HP over 6sec, requires an enemy target)
• the option to drop Shadowform to manually cast heals costing an extra global to re-enter Shadowform and quickly emptying mana
• Shields which prevent Disc priests from healing
• mass dispel, which quickly empties mana
• Halo healing

No priest would use Symbiosis Tranquility; the Shadow tranq heals less than spamming flash heal for the same amount of time. While we're on the topic though, both mages and warlocks can get a single-target heal that heals as much as a Shadow flash heal, but without the extra global to get back into shadow form.

[Purpleisbetter]

Because they aren't called hybrids because they do pure straight DPS


And spriests can bubble people, if a tank/dps needs to get somewhere a spriest can easily PW:S them to give them the body and soul buff.


Shadow Priest: Vampiric Embrace, dispersion, mana hymn{big one}, a lot of self heals, shelds and offer offspec tranqs when symbiosised
Shaman: Slew of totems, can pop healing cooldowns even as DPS via talents, blood lust/hero
Feral Druids: Brez, Offspec tranq, ability to self heal for a mega amount every 10 seconds or so, common amounts of self healing, raid speed increases for mobility fights, offer symbiosis to other classes


Mages: time warp...
Warlocks: Battle res and a portal, some self healing and self cooldowns
Rogues: Nothing extremley useful for the raid
Warriors: Rallying Cry


So.... I would say hybrids have significantly more to offer for raid utility then any pure DPS class ever could.


Also, WAY LESS is a pretty huge over exaggeration at this point. Spriests and other hybrids.. have held up great so far this tier against pure DPS classes and got significant buff to even bring them more in line with the pure DPS classes...

I just don't think people understand how important hybrids are in raids OTHER then pure dps.

Those of the lock are not "some" self heals. Actually, if i get symbiotized as a lock, i can say s.priest has some self heals. Some. Very few. Its not like a spriest can pump up 11k personal hps while doing top tier dps, wouldn't him?

And beside, all in all u can reduce everything to VE and HoH. Oh btw, if there's so much need for a spriest to go wild with flash heals and eventual bubbles at this point why would u take a spriest at all? I mean, u get a crit haste holy priest and here you go: almost the same DPS single target, better AoE and lightwell+DH+proper healing.

As my experience go, u can only afford one hybrid caster, and that place in my books go to the boomkins hands down. Better dps, Tranq (not VE but the MoFo tranq), b ress, innervate and if needed HoTW. Wich is not some wannabe healing, its a goddamn 45 seconds of proper healing costing no mana. Without loosing so much dps, as the int scaling from chickens is quite good(hotw passive bonus).
Oh there's symbiosis wich can lead to a free purge or mass dispell, or one more defenisve cd on ur tank.

Quoting ur own words we should look at what u can bring to a raid. That's fair.

Now i try to show u this:
lets assume there's a 10m raid (easier for the sake of this example) built this way:

2 tanks (random)
3 healers (one is a r .druid)
5 dps wich can be symb-lock, mage, a rogue, a bm hunter and a war.

Now u've:
lock: HUGE self heal (gosac + glyph siphon life on multi target rej and so on), 1 soaking cd, another strong 40%dmg reduction cd and a nopanicitopbymeslf Healthstone+Dark regen macro.
mage: cauterize, iceblock alter time, and yet another topbymyself spell wich is glyphed invo.
rogue: as combat u get glyphed feint (can u even compete with that?) , cos, vanish if needed, self heal thru recoup (not so strong but still).5.2 they get the poor man PW:B.
hunter: 2xDeterrence, self heal thru pet. Dunno what else.
War: kown for the infamous DEFENSIVESTANCEDBTSSHIELDWALLSECONDWINDLOLOLOLOLOLIDON'TDIE.

C'mon, there's not even need for a hybrid caster at all.

[Fadinglight]

I'd give up my casted heals to do more damage. Locks heal just as much basically and do more damage. It doesn't make sense.