Thrall should be exiled after SoO

[bufferunderrun]

in the last book Jaina asked Thrall to return as warchief and boot garrosh back to nagrad, thrall flat out refused cause his full power still absorbed by mending the planet (something that still draining the entire ER power, thrall, nobundo, muln etc are all doing this), he can't possibly lead the horde and cure the planet.

[LilSaihah]

You know Muradin saw what Arthas was becoming, and now he's leader of the dwarves. Why then is he not exiled? Oh, doesn't he feel guilt for not doing anything to stop Arthas? Well that must make it alright then.

That's a very good question. I personally think he should have stayed dead. Waking up with a bit of a headache and forgetting where he left his Steam Tank keys undermined Arthas's fall.

[Scummer]

That's a very good question. I personally think he should have stayed dead. Waking up with a bit of a headache and forgetting where he left his Steam Tank keys undermined Arthas's fall.

It's not a good question because Muradin wasn't Arthas's superior and was powerless to stop him although was constantly telling him to turn back as anything more than that would amount to treason. On top of this Muradin didn't exactly appoint Arthas as leader of an entire faction of people.....

As I mentioned earlier Thrall must have known Garrosh would wind up being like he is now he seriously was a fool. Garrosh gave him an ample example of his poor leadership skills during the Theramore Peace Summit, Northrend and during Thrall's absence while having Vol'jin and Cairne warning him against such an action.

[Screwtape]

I find it amusing that you expect a character to know something the writers didn't know until this expansion. There's substantial evidence that Garrosh was being developed in Cataclysm. Let me just remind you of the timeline of faction leaders so you'll know why I find these discussions amusing.

-Vanilla
*Horde has Orc Jesus; Alliance has nothing

-Sometime later through Wrath
*Orc Jesus and a gigantic dildo with a smashing haircut.

Hmm, we Alliance doesn't seem to happy having a dildo vs Orc Jesus, so let's somehow make an even bigger dildo.

-Wrath
*Orc Jesus with Orange Dildo vs King Dildo

Having two dildos isn't very interesting, so let's soften them a bit
-Cataclysm
*Less dildoish Wrynn vs a still prickish but developing Garrosh

-Pandaland
Well, damn, we're making Wrynn less of a dildo and it would be boring if they were both not pricks. Fuck it, throw that development in the trash can, we're going full dildo mode!

[LilSaihah]

It's not a good question because Muradin wasn't Arthas's superior and was powerless to stop him although was constantly telling him to turn back as anything more than that would amount to treason. On top of this Muradin didn't exactly appoint Arthas as leader of an entire faction of people.....

Muradin was, if anything, Arthas's equal. I'm not 100% sure on how rule of Ironforge is passed down, but Arthas and Muradin are both princes, and Muradin was more or less Arthas's equal in combat (both level 10!). Powerless? Thump him with your damn hammer, assume command and retreat, Muradin, Arthas is a nutter.

Nobody appointed Arthas as leader of an entire faction; at that point in the story, Arthas had commandeered, and is holding against their will, his standing forces. Terenas, the REAL leader of Lordaeron, explicitly told them to get the hell out of dodge and Arthas's army would've been more than happy to oblige, prompting Arthas to blow up his own ships.

This isn't to try to poke any holes in the proposal that Thrall is responsible for Garrosh's rise to power, he definitely is. Garrosh had displayed plenty of less-than-pleasant leadership traits before the appointment, and Thrall had more options than going "HEY LETS GIVE BROWNY MCMINIEYES HERE THE JOB". Garrosh isn't the only decorated Northrend veteran.

[dejec1989]

Varok Saurfang for Horde chieftain! /vote but also Thrall will not go, he lead the Horde to build Orgrimmar save countless Orcs, Trolls and Tauren.

New chief? no.
exiled? no.
place in Horde history and allowed to stay? yes.

[Nekosom]

Yeah, but apparently its ok for the alliance to fuk up and make mistakes, such as with Arthas and allowing him to carry on his mad quest, and yet with Thrall he should be dammed for it?

You know Muradin saw what Arthas was becoming, and now he's leader of the dwarves. Why then is he not exiled? Oh, doesn't he feel guilt for not doing anything to stop Arthas? Well that must make it alright then.

Arthas becoming the Lich King is not something anyone could have reasonably predicted. And by the way, when Muradin got his memory back, he did everything in his power to stop him. Hellbent on stopping him, in fact. Garrosh becoming a tyrant any fool could see coming, and when his tyranny is unveiled? Thrall washes his hands of it, because he has more important concerns.

And by the way, how many times does it need to be reinforced that the Grand Alliance of Lordaeron and the New Alliance of Stormwind are two entirely different entities? King Terenas died for his blind faith in his son, and the old Alliance along with it. Apparently though, Thrall should have no accountability for handing the Horde over to a bloodthirsty tyrant. Ya, whatever.

A person doing good things doesn't cancel out doing bad things. Thrall saved the world, great. Unfortunately, he also give dictator powers to an orc with an obvious lust for blood. I like that in fantasyland we can admire dictators who call themselves "Warchiefs," and when their successor abuses such a power, there's no accountability for the person who set the system up in the first place. Because I mean, a democracy would just be silly, right?

That doesn't mean I agree with Thrall being exiled. If he merely takes up a prominent role in deposing Garrosh, then that is sufficient atonement. If he doesn't...well, then he ceases to be a "noble" character, and everything his character once stood for is for naught.

[Spl4sh3r]

I don't like shortcuts on words, what does SoO even mean?

[Deleted]

I don't like shortcuts on words, what does SoO even mean?

Siege of Orgrimmar, probably the last raid instance to appear in the final MoP patch.

[Scummer]

Muradin was, if anything, Arthas's equal. I'm not 100% sure on how rule of Ironforge is passed down, but Arthas and Muradin are both princes, and Muradin was more or less Arthas's equal in combat (both level 10!).

Combat has nothing to do with it. Both were from two different sovereign states so neither could order the either to do anything, although if any of them were to be a superior it would be Arthas due to Lordaeron's position within the Alliance and even then it accounts for nothing as the Alliance at that time had no centralised body and was still a collection of allied states.

Powerless? Thump him with your damn hammer, assume command and retreat, Muradin, Arthas is a nutter.

Muradin also had no clue about what Arthas had done to Stratholme, so while he saw Arthas going down a dark path all he knew was that Arthas was out for blood against a Dreadlord, so he had no idea of the extent of Arthas' mental state. What you're suggesting is also treason within the Alliance. It's in no way as simple as what you make it out to be.

[Florena]

Arthas becoming the Lich King is not something anyone could have reasonably predicted. And by the way, when Muradin got his memory back, he did everything in his power to stop him. Hellbent on stopping him, in fact. Garrosh becoming a tyrant any fool could see coming, and when his tyranny is unveiled? Thrall washes his hands of it, because he has more important concerns.

And by the way, how many times does it need to be reinforced that the Grand Alliance of Lordaeron and the New Alliance of Stormwind are two entirely different entities? King Terenas died for his blind faith in his son, and the old Alliance along with it. Apparently though, Thrall should have no accountability for handing the Horde over to a bloodthirsty tyrant. Ya, whatever.

A person doing good things doesn't cancel out doing bad things. Thrall saved the world, great. Unfortunately, he also give dictator powers to an orc with an obvious lust for blood. I like that in fantasyland we can admire dictators who call themselves "Warchiefs," and when their successor abuses such a power, there's no accountability for the person who set the system up in the first place. Because I mean, a democracy would just be silly, right?

That doesn't mean I agree with Thrall being exiled. If he merely takes up a prominent role in deposing Garrosh, then that is sufficient atonement. If he doesn't...well, then he ceases to be a "noble" character, and everything his character once stood for is for naught.

Ok I'm tired of hearing this. I want a source in lore that confirms that these two 'alliances' are in fact different entities, that the first was formally dissolved and a new one made from scratch. I have seen no lore that suggests such, and it seems to me that the Alliance simply evolved. Now I don't know every detail of wow lore, but I haven't read anything about the Alliance races coming back together and having to reform it. And even if they did, considering it comprised of the exact same people as the old alliance, it wouldn't really be much of a 'new' alliance unlike the now horde, which is only similar to the old horde in that both started with orcs.

[Mr. Casual]

Ya, but his poor judgement led to a war that killed thousands of Alliance.

That counts for quite a lot too.

not as much as the world being destroyed........ world destruction > couple alliance deaths

[babo7000]

Just got back to this thread, like how its going.

Muradin is nothing comparable to Thrall. He had to control over Arthas, and Arthas had no reason to listen to aside from out of respect. And don't say he could've knocked Arthas out or killed him. The Old Alliance was still around, any damage done to Arthas, no matter his mental state (he wasnt LK at the time anyhow) by Muradin would be treason and/or regicide. Doubt he couldve seen Arthas turning Into the king of undeath either.

But Thrall was Garrosh's direct superior. ANYTHING he said, Garrosh would have to do. Thrall knew the flaws of Grom, and through incidents like Pre-WotLK, Theramore summit and from Saurfangs reports, would had have to known Garrosh carries these same traits. How could Thrall have not seen this coming? How come someone who puts a maniac im power, ignoring the advise of some of his wisest friends and advisors, simply because he wanted to make his people, the orcs (re: not the entire Horde) happy, feel blameless.

Due to Thralls ignorance, poor hindsight, and his wanting to no longer be Warchief (remember,Garrosh was temp), thousands of Alliance and neutral lives have been killed. Should the Alliance ignore all of this because of what he did in Cata? No, but his actions against Deathwing are what warrant his survival. He doesnt deserve death, but he does deserve punishment. Even many non-Orcs should be pissed at Thrall, for not thinking about the Horde as a whole whem he appointed Garrosh.

[Deleted]

I could see Thrall becoming High Chieftain of the Orcs, but not Warchief of the Horde. Either they need to appoint a non Orc Warchief, or have a council of the race leaders taking charge.

Actually scratch that, the Horde should be subjugated by the Alliance, with Shandris Feathermoon appointed as Governor of Orgrimmar.

[Sylreick]

Garrosh is the one in power, he's to blame for all the crap that's been happening. Sure Thrall made a bad move putting him in power, but that was to give him some responsibility and try to shift his point of view. That does not automatically mean all the bad things he does is Thralls doing. Shifting the blame to Thrall would end up making Garrosh out to be innocent, because it's all Thralls fault after all.

[babo7000]

not as much as the world being destroyed........ world destruction > couple alliance deaths

Last I checked Thrall didn't save the World just for the Alliance.

Last I checked Thrall appointed Garrosh because he wanted someone who would be more aggresive to the Alliance.

Im not saying his actions in Cata should be forgotten, they are what keep him alive! But for the Alliance to make this guy 100% blameless because of what he did in Cata would be insane. The Alliance should want to see him punished, and exile to somewhere like Nagrand is more than fair, and judging by Thralls recent convos to Agrra and Jaina, Id doubt hed be too against it.

---------- Post added 2013-02-23 at 03:48 PM ----------

Garrosh is the one in power, he's to blame for all the crap that's been happening. Sure Thrall made a bad move putting him in power, but that was to give him some responsibility and try to shift his point of view. That does not automatically mean all the bad things he does is Thralls doing. Shifting the blame to Thrall would end up making Garrosh out to be innocent, because it's all Thralls fault after all.

Let qoute Dark Knight, with a little change.

'Garrosh is just a mad dog. I want whoever let him off the leash.'

[Rhozul]

Why should Thrall be punished for Garrosh's actions? Would you want to burn the art school that rejected Hitler to the ground because that failure would eventually lead to the Third Reich? Of course not, that's preposterous. No one could have predicted what one mediocre artist could do the world, just like no one knew that Garrosh would fall so far from where he was in the Burning Crusade; heck, even Wrath of the Lich King.

---------- Post added 2013-02-23 at 03:56 PM ----------

Last I checked Thrall appointed Garrosh because he wanted someone who would be more aggresive to the Alliance.

That's incorrect. Thrall appointed Garrosh because he wanted someone who could inspire his people, someone who he knew the people would respond to. Garrosh had a LOT of fans in the orcish army following Wrath of the Lich King, Thrall picked him because he knew that picking Garrosh wouldn't cause the orcs to descend into Chaos fighting over the position of Warchief.

If you think peace-loving Thrall would EVER pick someone to succeed him that would undermine everything he spend over five years working towards, well I can't help you there.

[kage]

Just got back to this thread, like how its going.

Muradin is nothing comparable to Thrall. He had to control over Arthas, and Arthas had no reason to listen to aside from out of respect. And don't say he could've knocked Arthas out or killed him. The Old Alliance was still around, any damage done to Arthas, no matter his mental state (he wasnt LK at the time anyhow) by Muradin would be treason and/or regicide. Doubt he couldve seen Arthas turning Into the king of undeath either.

But Thrall was Garrosh's direct superior. ANYTHING he said, Garrosh would have to do. Thrall knew the flaws of Grom, and through incidents like Pre-WotLK, Theramore summit and from Saurfangs reports, would had have to known Garrosh carries these same traits. How could Thrall have not seen this coming? How come someone who puts a maniac im power, ignoring the advise of some of his wisest friends and advisors, simply because he wanted to make his people, the orcs (re: not the entire Horde) happy, feel blameless.

Due to Thralls ignorance, poor hindsight, and his wanting to no longer be Warchief (remember,Garrosh was temp), thousands of Alliance and neutral lives have been killed. Should the Alliance ignore all of this because of what he did in Cata? No, but his actions against Deathwing are what warrant his survival. He doesnt deserve death, but he does deserve punishment. Even many non-Orcs should be pissed at Thrall, for not thinking about the Horde as a whole whem he appointed Garrosh.

I'm still not sure why why someone anyone should be punished for something his successor even if they did appoint they're replacement? In what part of any society is one held responsible for their replacements actions?

Some cases the person is condemned by members of the public ,but I can think of no instance where legal action (I'm assuming exile would be equivalent in this situation) was ever taken. If someone can think of an instance please tell me.

[Venziir]

Yeah, let's exile a guy for saving the world and not being able to see the future. Sounds fair enough....

[Okacz]

Exiling Thrall is taking this whole thing too far in my opinion. However, something has to be done, or at least reminded.

It was Thrall who appointed the new Warchief. And Thrall had all the data collected that proves that Garrosh SHOULD NOT be the Warchief. He was scared of leading (check), he was extremly brutal (check), he didn't think twice before challenging Thrall to a death battle for a little reason (check), he was reckless (check), his father nearly destroyed everything Thrall fought to accomplish (check), and Garrosh himself said he doesn't want to lead, sice he would pretty much suck at it (double check).

For me, a person who, with all this info, would appoint Garrosh as a Warchief, despite having Saurfang, Eitrigg or Nazgrel as an option, should face some consequences. But exile of the greatest hero of the Horde ever is taking it a bit too far. I'd say leave Thrall to shamanism and flowers, and allow Orcs and the Horde to further evolve. Thrall was a push needed to break the orcs chains and give them a reason to fight and live - now Orcs are a proud and settled down race, and they don't need a caretaker. Therefore, Thrall should stay neutral now, being simply an advisor and close friend of the Horde.