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  1. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by Dracodraco View Post
    Looking at last weeks bladelord between me and kayman, his pet did 5 melee attacks more than mine, his did 60 specials and mine did 69. So that's one every 6 seconds for him, and one every 5.2 seconds for me. Also, his pet's bite-ability has a damage spread of 15k->29.5k, mine has a dmg spread of 20.7-42.5K, while melee is even - so I guess that "wild hunt" or whatever the pets passive is named now has a SIGNIFICANT impact on the pets damage. Don't discount it as "nothing", it's a BIG factor overall between the two talents, like it or not.
    What pet "special" are you referring to? I logged in and couldn't find any on any pet that cost focus except for if your pet is tank specced. The only ability that cost focus was the Basic Attack (and it does increased damage if above 50) and their dash like ability.

    Also the only pet passive I can find have nothing to do with focus at all so why are people claiming it does? Spiked Collar and Combat Experience. The only time I can see it playing a role is when you pop fervor each time they get 1 guaranteed ability to be above 50 focus thus giving extra damage.

  2. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by Lucetia View Post
    What pet "special" are you referring to? I logged in and couldn't find any on any pet that cost focus except for if your pet is tank specced. The only ability that cost focus was the Basic Attack (and it does increased damage if above 50) and their dash like ability.

    Also the only pet passive I can find have nothing to do with focus at all so why are people claiming it does? Spiked Collar and Combat Experience. The only time I can see it playing a role is when you pop fervor each time they get 1 guaranteed ability to be above 50 focus thus giving extra damage.
    "Basic attack" and "Special attack" is the same thing. I just refer to it as a special, because it costs energy to use. Melee hits, to me, are "basic attacks". Basic attack = auto shot. Special attack = explosive shot. You can see why I'd refer to Bite, claw, and the likes as a "special", following that logic.
    Also, the wild hunt I was referring to is indeed the "causes more damage when above 50 energy". Apparantly, my pet did 9 swings more than his, and it's "Specials", "Basics", or whatever you want to call it, did 33% more damage. Quite significant, really (an average of 22.5K for 60 hits = 1350K dmg, an average of 30K for 69 hits = 2070K dmg, or a difference of 720K divided by 360 seconds is 2K dps).

  3. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by Dracodraco View Post
    "Basic attack" and "Special attack" is the same thing. I just refer to it as a special, because it costs energy to use. Melee hits, to me, are "basic attacks". Basic attack = auto shot. Special attack = explosive shot. You can see why I'd refer to Bite, claw, and the likes as a "special", following that logic.
    Ah, ok. Going by the logic it makes sense then. I was just using in game terms that are the spells are referred to so that's what threw me off.


    Quote Originally Posted by Dracodraco View Post
    Also, the wild hunt I was referring to is indeed the "causes more damage when above 50 energy". Apparantly, my pet did 9 swings more than his, and it's "Specials", "Basics", or whatever you want to call it, did 33% more damage. Quite significant, really (an average of 22.5K for 60 hits = 1350K dmg, an average of 30K for 69 hits = 2070K dmg, or a difference of 720K divided by 360 seconds is 2K dps).
    Yea the +DMG above 50 Focus is built into the Bite/Claw/etc. Is there a way to differentiate the difference between a boosted one and a non without going through each hit and looking at it? If it did that much that much more damage I am wondering if there is anything else influencing how much focus the pets are generating. Do their focus regen scale with haste? I tried looking everywhere in game and couldn't find anything definitive.

    As I mentioned before, not arguing with you or anything. Just trying to throw some thoughts out there and seeing things.

  4. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by Lucetia View Post
    Ah, ok. Going by the logic it makes sense then. I was just using in game terms that are the spells are referred to so that's what threw me off.




    Yea the +DMG above 50 Focus is built into the Bite/Claw/etc. Is there a way to differentiate the difference between a boosted one and a non without going through each hit and looking at it? If it did that much that much more damage I am wondering if there is anything else influencing how much focus the pets are generating. Do their focus regen scale with haste? I tried looking everywhere in game and couldn't find anything definitive.

    As I mentioned before, not arguing with you or anything. Just trying to throw some thoughts out there and seeing things.
    Don't think so I'm afraid, the hit is just... Harder. Pets regen DOES scale with our own, but it's not a gear difference - that week, Kayman had better gear than I did (he had heroic shoulders from protectors, heroic tier chest, and heroic protector ring. I had heroic tier shoulders, zorlok chest, and heroic ring. Got my shoulders+chest that evening, and we both got our rings this reset).
    I don't recall how quickly the pet gains focus, but I guess an instant +50 means an instant buffed attack, and +5 focus regen over time means it'll get another buffed attack off eventually... So every time you pop fervor, it's basicly 2x basic attacks buffed.

  5. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by Disfunctionz View Post
    I dont agree.
    Your overall focus flow in the course of a fight will be the determining factor of your steady/arcane ratio.
    If you use procs while focus capped, your gaining less passive focus.
    If your using procs while NOT focus capped you are gaining full passive focus.
    That passive focus gain is going to give you more overall focus, witch is return will increase your overall arcane usage.
    Also getting procs while not focus capped(especially at lower focus)increases the general usefulness of the ability, allowing you to have an easier rotation, and giving you a better chance to not make mistakes.

    The passive focus regen is quite significant in the overall picture, so to not consider it is a bad thing.
    I'm not sure what you are talking about. Steady shot with SV? I don't know what you are disagreeing with. Using your maximum damage abilities doesn't give you maximum damage?

  6. #106
    Yea I agree that the pet damage as SV is still something, I just called it minuscule if compared to your own personal dmg.. And what you posted is not the best case scenario.. I have had 3 back to back procs at times.. opening rotation, proc, spam as, ES (another proc), spam AS, BA/GT (proc), spam AS etc.. that's already 3 procs within the first 10-12 secs.. so 5 within 60 is not the best case scenario.. Also another thing you didn't account for was cobra vs higher dmg abilities. In cases like the one I mentioned, I don't even use cobra for a good while.. almost like in BM.. It's just straight AS spam.. and just refresh it with either srs or multi shot if at focus cap.

    That being said though, like I said, 1 source and whatnot.. So I will try out fervor.. see if I can get the hang of maximizing it's benefit..

    But dude did you really say all 25m players are more skilled than 10m players lol ? Cuz there is a discrepancy in almost all the 10 and 25m logs.. If technically all factors are the same, why is there a difference at all ? The only thing you can say is 25m players > 10m players lol.. which would ruffle a lot of feathers.. And I don't believe that for a second..

  7. #107
    I did expect to learn something from this post but seems things become personal /sigh

  8. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by Namarus View Post
    I'm not sure what you are talking about. Steady shot with SV? I don't know what you are disagreeing with. Using your maximum damage abilities doesn't give you maximum damage?
    Steady was a typo(obviously)
    Your kind of saying that using your max dmg ability is always a good thing no matter what, but thats like saying " o i have 20 focus ima use arcane even tho kill command will be off cd next global"
    You need to look at the bigger picture.
    My arguement is that it is a dps loss to be focus capped(or in other words if you dont focus cap youll do more dps)
    Its simple
    If your focus capped and spamming arcane with toth your getting less passive focus

    VS

    If you not focus capped with toth and spamming arcane you gain more passive focus.

    Would you rather spam the same shot but gain LESS focus
    or spam that same shot and gain MORE focus.?

    Either way that shot and proc have the same value capped or not.(your still using the proc, arcane still does the same dmg, and arcane still cost the same amount of focus either way whether capped or not)
    But gaining more focus at the same time is better(witch you gain less if your capped)

    In the end that extra focus will eventually catch up, and potentially give you an extra arcane in a 6 sec cycle.

    It is the simple fact that you always want to be passively regening focus.
    4focus a sec adds up.
    If your capped your not gaining that(youd be gaining some still but not the full amount)

    The point is the more you focus cap, the less overall focus youll gain in the course of a fight.
    More overall focus will give you more overall arcanes.

    If you focus cap and there was absolutely nothing you could have done to prevent it, then thats the talents fault.
    But you would have theoretically still gotten more overall dps out of using it while not focus capped.
    max dmg ability capped vs non capped is not = in the big picture.

    If we didnt passively regen focus, I'm pretty sure youd be right.
    But we do.

    ToTH doesnt really matter in this explaination, I just use it because its the main contributing factor to the scenario in witch the topic arises.
    But based on what I'm saying above it does lose overall value if it causes you to focus cap.
    Last edited by Disfunctionz; 2013-02-23 at 09:28 AM.

  9. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by Disfunctionz View Post
    Steady was a typo(obviously)
    Your kind of saying that using your max dmg ability is always a good thing no matter what, but thats like saying " o i have 20 focus ima use arcane even tho kill command will be off cd next global"
    What I actually wrote was.

    Being focus capped while doing low damage abilities is bad.

    Being focus capped while doing your maximum damage abilities is not bad. You aren't wasting dps, you are doing MAXIMUM damage.
    It doesn't matter what picture you look at, this statement is true, always.

  10. #110
    You would be doing max dmg at that point, but eventually because of the focus you didnt regen, a time would come when instead of using an arcane you have to use a cobra, overall lowering your dps.
    You make this statement but dont provide any real explanation or evidence.
    What your saying does "kind of" make sense, but alot of times things that make sence arent right when you actually look at the bigger pciture.
    I mean come on, at least make a rebuttal to my argument to back your statement up.

  11. #111
    Quote Originally Posted by Disfunctionz View Post
    You would be doing max dmg at that point, but eventually because of the focus you didnt regen, a time would come when instead of using an arcane you have to use a cobra, overall lowering your dps.
    You make this statement but dont provide any real explanation or evidence.
    What your saying does "kind of" make sense, but alot of times things that make sence arent right when you actually look at the bigger pciture.
    I mean come on, at least make a rebuttal to my argument to back your statement up.
    I'm not even sure I want to bother with a rebuttal to this nonsense, so I'm not going to bother. I'm just letting you know it is nonsense.

  12. #112
    Quote Originally Posted by Dracodraco View Post
    Lollipop, your posts are hard to read (paragraphs, commas and such are your friends ), but by the gist of it, it seems like you're sticking to TOTH because you like it better. So be it, that just means you aren't as "serious" as some of us are. As for your "DPS gain for non BM pet is something but not alot", let's take http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...?s=7718&e=8173 as we have close to 100% uptime with no dumb modifiers on that fight.
    My Manglermaster: 16464 DPS.
    Kayman's Blackwing: 11964 DPS.
    Thats exactly 4.5K dps more for my pet, or a 37% increase in my pet's damage. And noticeably, about 4% OVERALL dps for me.
    You're really, REALLY undervalueing how hard your pet hits .
    I dont like this log ....how will u explain me the fact that u have 1.3m more dmg from your serpent sting ....thats a lot
    Also you have 17 multi shots and he has only 9 (and he use ToHT!!!) that makes absolutely no sense to me.
    And here comes the really funny part ...you have 77 Cobra shots(u) vs 71 Cobra shots (Kayman).....his CS count should be much lower then yours but its kinda the same!
    But l ll keep digging into this log ....114AS(kayman)vs 99(u) ...REALLY ? ....with ToHT he has 15 AS more then you and 8 less Multishots !
    I dont want to make conclusions out of this log cuz i ll probably insult someone -.-
    But i ll admit you something ...Wild Hunt + Farvor is not something to be ignored

  13. #113
    Quote Originally Posted by Namarus View Post
    I'm not even sure I want to bother with a rebuttal to this nonsense, so I'm not going to bother. I'm just letting you know it is nonsense.
    Being focus capped while doing low damage abilities is bad.

    Being focus capped while doing your maximum damage abilities is not bad. You aren't wasting dps, you are doing MAXIMUM damage.
    Scenario 1: You focus cap but use your highest damaging abilities.

    Scenario 2: Same rotation except at some point before focus capping you use an arcane shot instead of a cobra. You don't focus cap. During the period of time that you were focus capped in scenario 1 you are instead generating passive focus. Over time this focus adds up to afford you an extra arcane shot.

    Which scenario will result in more damage?

    Using your highest damage abilities while focus capped isn't a DPS loss at that particular point in time. Focus capping in the first place is.
    That may not be what he was referring to, and it may not be what you were referring to, but you should tone down the arrogance in any case.

  14. #114
    Quote Originally Posted by mediic View Post
    Scenario 1: You focus cap but use your highest damaging abilities.

    Scenario 2: Same rotation except at some point before focus capping you use an arcane shot instead of a cobra. You don't focus cap. During the period of time that you were focus capped in scenario 1 you are instead generating passive focus. Over time this focus adds up to afford you an extra arcane shot.

    Which scenario will result in more damage?

    Using your highest damage abilities while focus capped isn't a DPS loss at that particular point in time. Focus capping in the first place is.
    That may not be what he was referring to, and it may not be what you were referring to, but you should tone down the arrogance in any case.
    I tell you what, why don't you write down your argument with shot rotation, current focus, focus consumed and damage done. You will see that your scenarios are completely wrong. Focus capping while doing your highest damage ability is never a dps loss.

    Something for you to think about.

    If you a close to full focus cap, LNL procs, do you fire all the two free explosive shots knowing that this will focus cap you, or do you fire an explosive shot, followed by an arcane, followed by the rest of the explosive shots.
    Last edited by Namarus; 2013-02-23 at 01:11 PM.

  15. #115
    Quote Originally Posted by Saoron View Post
    Yea I agree that the pet damage as SV is still something, I just called it minuscule if compared to your own personal dmg.. And what you posted is not the best case scenario.. I have had 3 back to back procs at times.. opening rotation, proc, spam as, ES (another proc), spam AS, BA/GT (proc), spam AS etc.. that's already 3 procs within the first 10-12 secs.. so 5 within 60 is not the best case scenario.. Also another thing you didn't account for was cobra vs higher dmg abilities. In cases like the one I mentioned, I don't even use cobra for a good while.. almost like in BM.. It's just straight AS spam.. and just refresh it with either srs or multi shot if at focus cap.
    That's what we call a "theoretical" best case scenario. Besides, it was 6 procs, not 5. You can get as many procs as there is focus-costing shots in your cycle, but you could also get none. They proc 30% of the time, and what I set up is what it would look like under a "normal" cycle without lock and load procs, while using all the charges. You can't calculate how much something is worth unless you can assume an average, which we can, because we're straight out given it - it can be better, and it can be worse.

    That being said though, like I said, 1 source and whatnot.. So I will try out fervor.. see if I can get the hang of maximizing it's benefit..

    But dude did you really say all 25m players are more skilled than 10m players lol ? Cuz there is a discrepancy in almost all the 10 and 25m logs.. If technically all factors are the same, why is there a difference at all ? The only thing you can say is 25m players > 10m players lol.. which would ruffle a lot of feathers.. And I don't believe that for a second..
    I'd be quite happy to be wrong, but I mean... Looking at it again, the only "other" factor that benefits me more is the fact that we have more crit banners and stormlashes than he does (2 of each respectively). Each stormlash is about ~500-750 dps, so can take 1.5k away from my 10k lead, but don't know how to calculate crit banners, really.


    Quote Originally Posted by lolipopp View Post
    I dont like this log ....how will u explain me the fact that u have 1.3m more dmg from your serpent sting ....thats a lot
    Also you have 17 multi shots and he has only 9 (and he use ToHT!!!) that makes absolutely no sense to me.
    And here comes the really funny part ...you have 77 Cobra shots(u) vs 71 Cobra shots (Kayman).....his CS count should be much lower then yours but its kinda the same!
    But l ll keep digging into this log ....114AS(kayman)vs 99(u) ...REALLY ? ....with ToHT he has 15 AS more then you and 8 less Multishots !
    I dont want to make conclusions out of this log cuz i ll probably insult someone -.-
    But i ll admit you something ...Wild Hunt + Farvor is not something to be ignored
    No offense, but you have to either put your posts through a spellcheck, or make yourself more clear than you are now.
    I have 17 multishot HITS. Each hit registers as a seperate multishot in logs. I got MC'd and multishotted people. How hard is that to figure out :s?
    Difference in AS' and Cobra's can be due to alot of different reasons. I got off more ES and glaive toss than he did, so that would have to come from something else. He would have to cast less Cobra shots because he's busy firing off arcane shots from TOTH (Requiring 3 GBC's per time it procs, rather than fervor letting me do whatever I was already doing - for example, ES->BA for only 2 gbcs).
    There's a 200K difference in the dmg from our serpent sting, with an edge to Kayman. If you're talking about Thaloc, he was beastmastery and has *significantly* worse gear than me and kayman. Simmed him as SV the other day, I came out at ~120K, he came out at ~105K. It's really quite incredible how much gear changes things.
    Really, you're pointing out things that should be stupidly obvious :/.

  16. #116
    Then why u bring a gimmick fight to a topic comparing talents ? Ofc i know about MC u know it too but why you gave this fight as an example . WhY ?
    He would cast less ...sorry but 6 cobra shots out of 77 is nothing .One of you is doing it wrong ...don't know who and don't care !

  17. #117
    Quote Originally Posted by lolipopp View Post
    Then why u bring a gimmick fight to a topic comparing talents ? Ofc i know about MC u know it too but why you gave this fight as an example . WhY ?
    He would cast less ...sorry but 6 cobra shots out of 77 is nothing .One of you is doing it wrong ...don't know who and don't care !

    My brain literally hurts. Just... Just stop man. You're embarassing yourself at this point <.<. I'm sure no other hunters will have an issue with the fact that I got mindcontrolled and fired off a multishot.

  18. #118
    This whole topic is a mind fuck
    And no i don't ...if u want to prove something pick the right fight for it ...fuck multishots i care about CS and AS count cuz they reflect the benefits from either Farvor or ToHT.

  19. #119
    Quote Originally Posted by lolipopp View Post
    This whole topic is a mind fuck
    And no i don't ...if u want to prove something pick the right fight for it ...fuck multishots i care about CS and AS count cuz they reflect the benefits from either Farvor or ToHT
    You can't deduct anything from a single log. The log was used as an example for the damage my PET did, compared to his. How on earth does my amount of cobra shots and arcane shots have any bearing on how effective fervor is for my *pet*. You rambling on about multishots is just utterly dumb, no offense ment, but why are you even posting about it? you didn't even seem to know that "17 multishot" hits didn't mean I pressed my multishot 17 times (WHY ON EARTH would I do that on a singletarget fight?), but rather that my multishot HIT a total of 17 times.
    Besides, RNG and human trial and error means that a *log* is one of the worst things you can use to simulate the benefit of a talent. You can usually get a much better view of how much a talent should benefit you through math than through reading a log.

    What a log can give you - base damage and overview of how things are handled in a "real" enviroment (proc munching, downtime, how much damage an ability does comparable to another).
    What a log can't give you - math to prove a talent is better than another talent, due to the nature of RNG.

  20. #120
    you want to prove how much Fervor benefits pets dps ...i want to see the whole picture and this fights is not good for it cuz of a MC that can mess it up thing.Since you said your gear ilvl are kinda a same i want to see Cobra shot and Arcane Shot numbers cuz thats very important.

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