Thrall should be exiled after SoO

[Tenjen]

who else was elegible other than Garrosh? Saurfang Jnr. was the first choice (and the better choice) but he was killed. No one else was close to willing or able. Garrosh showed potential and was the only viable choice on the cusp of the end of the world who would have lead the horde and managed to push them past the suffering of the cataclysm. As i said Garrosh showed the potential for better sense but that didnt work out.

Thrall shouldnt be faulted for having to choose him, there were no other options that wouldnt have cost his people everything. But he definately should get involved to stop Garrosh (not in a central role like with Deathwing though but one of many involved)

I wonder if Deathbringer Saurfang can be resurrected somehow, Saurfang asking Sylvanas for help? nah.

Anyway, the horde should be a republic-like system with representatives from each race in a council. Can be the faction leaders or other.

[babo7000]

Why should Thrall be punished for Garrosh's actions? Would you want to burn the art school that rejected Hitler to the ground because that failure would eventually lead to the Third Reich? Of course not, that's preposterous. No one could have predicted what one mediocre artist could do the world, just like no one knew that Garrosh would fall so far from where he was in the Burning Crusade; heck, even Wrath of the Lich King.

---------- Post added 2013-02-23 at 03:56 PM ----------



That's incorrect. Thrall appointed Garrosh because he wanted someone who could inspire his people, someone who he knew the people would respond to. Garrosh had a LOT of fans in the orcish army following Wrath of the Lich King, Thrall picked him because he knew that picking Garrosh wouldn't cause the orcs to descend into Chaos fighting over the position of Warchief.

If you think peace-loving Thrall would EVER pick someone to succeed him that would undermine everything he spend over five years working towards, well I can't help you there.

After WotLK, night elf sentinels were killed im Ashenvale, during a time of drought in Durotar. The Alliance demanded justice and those responsible to br brought forward. Thrall, not knowing who set it up, refuses this, as he believes the Horde should punish them. One of his main reasons for appointing Garrosh, and he says so rightt im the book, is because Garrosh will be more unmoved by the Alliance, and wouldn't give in to them.

How he couldn't see this war coming, especially after Garrosh, for no reason, starts foaming out of the mouth with hatred for the Alliance after arriving on Azeroth.

And yes, Thrall didn't want unrest in the Orcs. He didn't want Cairne as Warchief because the Orcs wouldn't like a different race as their leader. So instead he puts one ofworst choices imaginable in charge, just too keep the Orcs happy. How should the Belves, or Tauren, or Trolls think about Thrall after this?

[Solzan Nemesis]

Why should Thrall be punished for Garrosh's actions? Would you want to burn the art school that rejected Hitler to the ground because that failure would eventually lead to the Third Reich? Of course not, that's preposterous.

huh, I think it should be shut down. Though I do not think any thing should happen to Thrall.

How was Thrall supposed to see into the future?

Yeah, let's exile a guy for saving the world and not being able to see the future. Sounds fair enough....

Thrall's a Farseer.

[kage]

After WotLK, night elf sentinels were killed im Ashenvale, during a time of drought in Durotar. The Alliance demanded justice and those responsible to br brought forward. Thrall, not knowing who set it up, refuses this, as he believes the Horde should punish them. One of his main reasons for appointing Garrosh, and he says so rightt im the book, is because Garrosh will be more unmoved by the Alliance, and wouldn't give in to them.

How he couldn't see this war coming, especially after Garrosh, for no reason, starts foaming out of the mouth with hatred for the Alliance after arriving on Azeroth.

And yes, Thrall didn't want unrest in the Orcs. He didn't want Cairne as Warchief because the Orcs wouldn't like a different race as their leader. So instead he puts one ofworst choices imaginable in charge, just too keep the Orcs happy. How should the Belves, or Tauren, or Trolls think about Thrall after this?

All excellent points, but this doesn't explain why this would warrant his exile?

[babo7000]

Yeah, let's exile a guy for saving the world and not being able to see the future. Sounds fair enough....

If Garrosh wasn't anything like he was, id agree with you. But Its not like Thrall shouldnt have seen this coming. He knew how dangerous Garrosh coule be, but ignored that, simply to appease the Orcs. Should the Alliance forget this?

And again, Thralls actions in Cata are what keep him alive.

People want to use some real life examples? Okay, Iran is a hot spot right now. If Mahmoud Ahmadinejad gave complete control of the Iranian government, military and people to the Taliban, knowing fully well what these people will do, do you think the American people are going to let him go? No, they would rightfully want him to be punished for his move. Why shouldn't the Ally?

---------- Post added 2013-02-23 at 04:20 PM ----------

All excellent points, but this doesn't explain why this would warrant his exile?

Hes done too much good to be killed. However he should be punished in some way. The Alliance demanding the Horde exile him isnt that far fetched.

[Venziir]

huh, I think it should be shut down. Though I do not think any thing should happen to Thrall.

Thrall's a Farseer.

And what is Far Sight? It's the ability to SEE FAR. Not see the future. Velen is the only one in the entire franchise credited with the powers of being able to see the future.

[Hughes]

I am at in impasse with this as well...

At one point, they were like 'yeahh Garrosh is going to be warchief!" then when MoP was announced (as well as Garrosh being the last boss) I remember people complaining that Metzen would bring back Thrall as Warchief. I don't remember exactly what was said, but Blizz response was "what's wrong with that?" Which quickly turned into "it's not happening."

Exlie Thrall? As much sense as it makes it won't happen. It's Metzen's lovechild, one that every time he mentions a syllable that comes close to sounding like "Thrall" you can practically see the semi forming from his face. To Metzen, Thrall is 'badass' and 'really cool' and 'badass' etc. etc. etc.

As much as I would like to see Thrall kick the bucket. Metzen won't allow him to die.

Oh, and someone said this is Thrall's Horde? No, it isnt. He gave that up when he passed the torch to a war-mongering, borderlined blood rage machine that is Garrosh.

---------- Post added 2013-02-23 at 04:32 PM ----------

And what is Far Sight? It's the ability to SEE FAR. Not see the future. Velen is the only one in the entire franchise credited with the powers of being able to see the future.

Interesting, what do you call the 'visions' that Thrall has had?

[Deleted]

About Thrall being a Farseer. Remember that little detail, which made the world, the elements and the spirits asunder? What was it's name?

OH, right! The Cataclysm. Everything went into the crapper that not even the Aspect of Time could see the future.

[Venziir]

I am at in impasse with this as well...

At one point, they were like 'yeahh Garrosh is going to be warchief!" then when MoP was announced (as well as Garrosh being the last boss) I remember people complaining that Metzen would bring back Thrall as Warchief. I don't remember exactly what was said, but Blizz response was "what's wrong with that?" Which quickly turned into "it's not happening."

Exlie Thrall? As much sense as it makes it won't happen. It's Metzen's lovechild, one that every time he mentions a syllable that comes close to sounding like "Thrall" you can practically see the semi forming from his face. To Metzen, Thrall is 'badass' and 'really cool' and 'badass' etc. etc. etc.

As much as I would like to see Thrall kick the bucket. Metzen won't allow him to die.

Oh, and someone said this is Thrall's Horde? No, it isnt. He gave that up when he passed the torch to a war-mongering, borderlined blood rage machine that is Garrosh.

---------- Post added 2013-02-23 at 04:32 PM ----------



Interesting, what do you call the 'visions' that Thrall has had?

Well let's take the first ones he ever had. That was Medivh messing with him.

[Hughes]

[/B]

Well let's take the first ones he ever had. That was Medivh messing with him.

And the ones he had prior to and during cataclysm? (Wasnt talking about WC3)

[kage]

If Garrosh wasn't anything like he was, id agree with you. But Its not like Thrall shouldnt have seen this coming. He knew how dangerous Garrosh coule be, but ignored that, simply to appease the Orcs. Should the Alliance forget this?

And again, Thralls actions in Cata are what keep him alive.

People want to use some real life examples? Okay, Iran is a hot spot right now. If Mahmoud Ahmadinejad gave complete control of the Iranian government, military and people to the Taliban, knowing fully well what these people will do, do you think the American people are going to let him go? No, they would rightfully want him to be punished for his move. Why shouldn't the Ally?

---------- Post added 2013-02-23 at 04:20 PM ----------



Hes done too much good to be killed. However he should be punished in some way. The Alliance demanding the Horde exile him isnt that far fetched.

He was a respected and (at the time) honorable military hero. He had a great deal of hate for the Alliance and other factors which make this decision questionable, but he was no less hateful and volatile than King Varian who matured in a competent leader as Thrall had hoped Garrosh would.

I know hopes do not a good Warchief, but you still have not answered why Thrall is culpable for Garrosh's actions. Stop assuming the reason as obvious. It isn't.

P.S. Way to bring the Taliban into the argument. Let's leave the Middle East out of the argument.

[Venziir]

And the ones he had prior to and during cataclysm? (Wasnt talking about WC3)

Those were the Spirits, the Earth and the Elements talking to him. Not visions of the future. Most of these "conversations" were done through meditation or rituals.

[Hughes]

He was a respected and (at the time) honorable military hero. He had a great deal of hate for the Alliance and other factors which make this decision questionable, but he was no less hateful and volatile than King Varian who matured in a competent leader as Thrall had hoped Garrosh would.

I know hopes do not a good Warchief, but you still have not answered why Thrall is culpable for Garrosh's actions. Stop assuming the reason as obvious. It isn't.

P.S. Way to bring the Taliban into the argument. Let's leave the Middle East out of the argument.

You can't look at a dog's violent past and always hope for a better future if they are put in the proper place. Thrall knew about Garrosh's hotheadedness, and his doubt of Garrosh's capabilities was obvious during Firelands.

Also his mentioning of the Taliban was a real-world comparison. He wasn't putting it in for a shock factor. Get over yourself.

[kage]

And the ones he had prior to and during cataclysm? (Wasnt talking about WC3)

The elements (every Shaman's buddy) telling him of coming Unatural disaster on an epic scale I get, but how would elements warn him that Garrosh was a future Oppressor and War Criminal?

[Hughes]

The elements (every Shaman's buddy) telling him of coming Unatural disaster on an epic scale I get, but how would elements warn him that Garrosh was a future Oppressor and War Criminal?

His dislike of non-orcs, how aggressive and borderlined bat shit crazy hatred towards the Alliance shortly after leaving Outland (Suppose you could chalk that up as Blizz trying to make a good impression for Horde players).

[kage]

You can't look at a dog's violent past and always hope for a better future if they are put in the proper place. Thrall knew about Garrosh's hotheadedness, and his doubt of Garrosh's capabilities was obvious during Firelands.

Also his mentioning of the Taliban was a real-world comparison. He wasn't putting it in for a shock factor. Get over yourself.

We also put down dogs when they've attacked someone rather than risk them ever attacking again even if they were only obeying/protecting they're master. See how the comparison doesn't really work when applied to people?

---------- Post added 2013-02-23 at 04:49 PM ----------

His dislike of non-orcs, how aggressive and borderlined bat shit crazy hatred towards the Alliance shortly after leaving Outland (Suppose you could chalk that up as Blizz trying to make a good impression for Horde players).

What does that have to do with whether or not Thrall should have had magical visions about Garrosh being a bad idea?

[babo7000]

He was a respected and (at the time) honorable military hero. He had a great deal of hate for the Alliance and other factors which make this decision questionable, but he was no less hateful and volatile than King Varian who matured in a competent leader as Thrall had hoped Garrosh would.

I know hopes do not a good Warchief, but you still have not answered why Thrall is culpable for Garrosh's actions. Stop assuming the reason as obvious. It isn't.

P.S. Way to bring the Taliban into the argument. Let's leave the Middle East out of the argument.

There is a difference between Garrosh's hatred to Ally, and Varians hatred to Horde.

Garrosh hated himself, his father, and his name, because he heard all the horror stories of Grom. You can sympathiye with the guy in a way. He knew how bad of a leader he was destined to be, which is why he didn't want to lead the Mag'Har. But anyways, we know this all changed because Thrall showed him the vision of Grom. He essentially told Garrosh his feelings of anger and aggression, that he had purposely had been bottling in his entire life were acceptable, and made his father a hero. He gave Garrosh the okay to be a dick. He made this guy with a very fragile mind believe that should he be more like his father, he would be as legendary as he.

Now, Thrall has seen multiple times Garrosh's uncalled for hatred towards the Alliance. I can understand him feeling a grudge towards them after seeing Org, but it does not warant a completely 100% devoted hatred. The reason he felt like this is because, as much as people may not like to accept it, Thrall allowed him to.

Fast forward to the Shattering, and Thrall gives Garrosh the positions of Warchief, mostly to appease the Orcs. Thrall isnt dumb. He knew what Garrosh would eventually do, but refused to accept that fact.

Now, even then, I would say Thrall doesnt deserve exile. His lines in ToW sealed the deal. He acted as if everything Garrosh has done is no longer his problem. When told about Garrosh by one of his best friends, he shrugs her off. The Alliance should not take this simply.

And very sorry about the Iran thing. Trust me, i hate to bring real life issies in WoW; different standards.
I just mentioned it because someone o, as expectes, did a ww2 comparison.

[Kralljin]

And what is Far Sight? It's the ability to SEE FAR. Not see the future. Velen is the only one in the entire franchise credited with the powers of being able to see the future.

Actually the idea of Far sight comes from foretelling the future.

Far seer in Wc3 could use Far sight to scout anywhere on the map, the idea behind it was to tell where the enemy would attack.

"Far Seers are not only tied to the elements of the earth and sky, but are also adept at foretelling the future."

"The Fire is also the granter of visions, thus Far Seers scry using campfires"

http://www.wowpedia.org/Far_Seer_%28Warcraft_III%29

Obviously Far sight in the form it existed in Wc3 was the closest thing to "foretelling the future" since it's hardly possible to tell what your enemy will do in the future.

[Deleted]

Well, in a very real sense... people need to hate Thrall for what Garrosh is doing to the Horde. He put him there. Garrosh didn't even want the position.

And I believe Metzen said that Garrosh was only a means for developing Thrall's storyline. So they succeeded in that. Thrall became less awesome.
And then there's the whole Go'el incident. Blizzard really shot themselves in the foot. They probably thought they could enrich Thrall's storyline, instead they ruined it and now people aren't even sure they want him back anymore.

I'd rather keep Garrosh. But if he has to go, I must admit I'd rather see Thrall return than some mindless nobody like Vol'jin or Lorthemar.

[kage]

Well, in a very real sense... people need to hate Thrall for what Garrosh is doing to the Horde. He put him there. Garrosh didn't even want the position.

And I believe Metzen said that Garrosh was only a means for developing Thrall's storyline. So they succeeded in that. Thrall became less awesome.
And then there's the whole Go'el incident. Blizzard really shot themselves in the foot. They probably thought they could enrich Thrall's storyline, instead they ruined it and now people aren't even sure they want him back anymore.

I'd rather keep Garrosh. But if he has to go, I must admit I'd rather see Thrall return than some mindless nobody like Vol'jin or Lorthemar.

I'll give you "nobody" for Lorthemar (that joke was what he was most known for for a good while), but "mindless" really? How are they mindless?