Varian should be exiled from the alliance.

[Justignoreme]

It's still lore, I'm sorry you don't like it. What is known, makes them a non-threat and a victim of the wars around them. It's just how it is.

There is nothing known either way, it has nothing to do with my personal opinion. You are stating Dark Trolls lived peacefully and never instigated anything, without a shred of evidence either way.

---------- Post added 2013-02-25 at 05:07 AM ----------

All Elves and Trolls have a common ancestor, doesn't have anything specifically to do with Dark Trolls, that's just a tribe that happened to live near Nordrassil.

Elves and Trolls being related actually makes perfect sense, because otherwise Azeroth has two distinct intelligent indigenous races that happen to look quite similar.

In fact every life form on the planet not seeded by the Titans must have evolved there, so they're all actually related. It's just a question of how closely.

No, they don't have a common ancestor. As written in that magazine, Night Elves come from Dark Trolls, supposedly confirmed by Freya and Cenarius. While this could and should be thrown out in lieu of some lore that isn't one liner crap, for now thats the story. What doesn't have much explanation are Dark Trolls. Nordrassil was planted after the War of the Ancients, the Well has not been confirmed as a source for the change.

[Uennie]

There is nothing known either way, it has nothing to do with my personal opinion. You are stating Dark Trolls lived peacefully and never instigated anything, without a shred of evidence either way.

I said that secretive =/= peaceful, because I was having a discussion with Skytotem and he raised a good point. What is known is that they never attacked anyone and ended up being the victims of genocide.

Please just let it go. It's not a pretty fact but it is part of lore.

[Justignoreme]

No, the goblins messed up the water. Durotar had problems in The Shattering, which I assume only got worse after the Shattering actually happened.

Watershed turned the desert of Durotar into a flood plain. A flood plain whose water couldn't be used for even drinking thanks to goblin pollution. ORc solution, invade Ashenvale (and pollute and destroy that land too)

---------- Post added 2013-02-25 at 05:11 AM ----------

I said that secretive =/= peaceful, because I was having a discussion with Skytotem and he raised a good point. What is known is that they never attacked anyone and ended up being the victims of genocide.

Please just let it go. It's not a pretty fact but it is part of lore.

I will let it go when you stop acting as if one line of nondescript lore = a detailed and in depth description of the Dark Trolls...

[Florena]

Watershed turned the desert of Durotar into a flood plain. A flood plain whose water couldn't be used for even drinking thanks to goblin pollution. ORc solution, invade Ashenvale (and pollute and destroy that land too)

---------- Post added 2013-02-25 at 05:11 AM ----------

I will let it go when you stop acting as if one line of nondescript lore = a detailed and in depth description of the Dark Trolls...

I could be mistaken but I think your chain of events is a bit muddled. I don't think the water got bad until AFTER Garrosh put his war machine into action, using the goblins to invade night elven lands etc, unless something in Baine's story indicates it takes place before the achenvale invasions. I could be wrong but I think the goblin water pollution came later on.

[Aquamonkey]

Watershed turned the desert of Durotar into a flood plain. A flood plain whose water couldn't be used for even drinking thanks to goblin pollution. ORc solution, invade Ashenvale (and pollute and destroy that land too)

Wouldn't need to invade if the Alliance wasn't so greedy about keeping resources the Horde needs to survive. They could've offered relief aid. Or set them up with a tract of forest to use.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Wouldn't need to invade if the Alliance wasn't so greedy about keeping resources the Horde needs to survive. They could've offered relief aid. Or set them up with a tract of forest to use.

Horde should stop messing up their own resources first.

[Justignoreme]

Wouldn't need to invade if the Alliance wasn't so greedy about keeping resources the Horde needs to survive. They could've offered relief aid. Or set them up with a tract of forest to use.

Im sorry, but resources in Alliance land isn't greed. And relief aid? To the people who want to kill and maim the Alliance all day? They are Alliance, not the First World IRL. Horde has resources to survive too, they just have no skills. At least the Orcs don't. Tauren do, Forsaken do, Blood Elves do, Trolls do. If the Horde wasnt so adept at stabbing the Alliance in the back, trade would've remained open...

I could be mistaken but I think your chain of events is a bit muddled. I don't think the water got bad until AFTER Garrosh put his war machine into action, using the goblins to invade night elven lands etc, unless something in Baine's story indicates it takes place before the achenvale invasions. I could be wrong but I think the goblin water pollution came later on.

Goblins rescued by Thrall, Shattering (actual, not novel), Garrosh invades Ashenvale, Alliance invades Barrens to bring relief to a beleaguered Night Elf dominion is the timeline as far as I know.

[Uennie]

Watershed turned the desert of Durotar into a flood plain. A flood plain whose water couldn't be used for even drinking thanks to goblin pollution. ORc solution, invade Ashenvale (and pollute and destroy that land too)

---------- Post added 2013-02-25 at 05:11 AM ----------

I will let it go when you stop acting as if one line of nondescript lore = a detailed and in depth description of the Dark Trolls...

Look, just because you don't like this doesn't mean it isn't part of the story. It's there, it's lore, and what is known is that they didn't attack anyone and were almost (or were) completely wiped out. I get it, you really like Night Elves, but you're basically saying that canon lore isn't canon or lore because it doesn't give you enough information. It gives you all the information you need, they didn't attack people, people attacked them. It would certainly at least be written or enacted somewhere if they had been aggressive unprovoked in WCIII.

They weren't. This is what we have, and trying to imagine what-if scenarios isn't going to fix anything. As I conceded to Skytotem, they may not have been peaceful, but they didn't attack anyone. You really just have to accept that until we get some new lore on them. The Night Elves committed genocide against the Dark Trolls, who were a complete non-threat. It's just how it is. I don't like it, it's clear you don't like it, but it still exists.

You can't change it, and no amount of mental gymnastics will.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Look, just because you don't like this doesn't mean it isn't part of the story. It's there, it's lore, and what is known is that they didn't attack anyone and were almost (or were) completely wiped out. I get it, you really like Night Elves, but you're basically saying that canon lore isn't canon or lore because it doesn't give you enough information. It gives you all the information you need, they didn't attack people, people attacked them. It would certainly at least be written or enacted somewhere if they had been aggressive unprovoked in WCIII.

They weren't. This is what we have, and trying to imagine what-if scenarios isn't going to fix anything. As I conceded to Skytotem, they may not have been peaceful, but they didn't attack anyone. You really just have to accept that until we get some new lore on them. The Night Elves committed genocide against the Dark Trolls, who were a complete non-threat. It's just how it is. I don't like it, it's clear you don't like it, but it still exists.

You can't change it, and no amount of mind gymnastics will.

Unless there was suddendly no Dark Trolls in Hyjal which...is supposedly to be wiped out by the Twilight Hammer.

[Cloud2038]

Night Elves did not come from trolls. Period.... I am so tired of this debate. Retcon or no, it was only stated in a magazine/comic that they came from trolls. Otherwise there have been numerous posts from blizzard that state that Night Elves ARE the oldest race and that Elune created them in her image...

[Uennie]

Unless there was suddendly no Dark Trolls in Hyjal which...is supposedly to be wiped out by the Twilight Hammer.

Yes, it's a shame that it seems the last of the Dark Trolls were wiped out by the Twilight Hammer. Here's hoping there are survivors (yay supposedlys)!

[Justignoreme]

Look, just because you don't like this doesn't mean it isn't part of the story.*snip*.

Once again, me calling out your made up BS has nothing to do with what I like or don't like. There's isn't any lore of substance with respect to Dark Trolls anywhere in the WoW universe. There's little snip its which amount to nothing. I don't get why you can't see this, but that's not my problem.

Unless there was suddendly no Dark Trolls in Hyjal which...is supposedly to be wiped out by the Twilight Hammer.

This too. A clever way for Blizzard to create a primer (saying Night Elves came from Dark Trolls) but not have to write about it (but the Dark Trolls were eradicated by the Twilight's Hammer).

[Uennie]

Night Elves did not come from trolls. Period.... I am so tired of this debate. Retcon or no, it was only stated in a magazine/comic that they came from trolls. Otherwise there have been numerous posts from blizzard that state that Night Elves ARE the oldest race and that Elune created them in her image...

Isn't Elune speculated to be a Naaru?

[Justignoreme]

Night Elves did not come from trolls. Period.... I am so tired of this debate. Retcon or no, it was only stated in a magazine/comic that they came from trolls. Otherwise there have been numerous posts from blizzard that state that Night Elves ARE the oldest race and that Elune created them in her image...

I wish that were true but, canon is canon -.-

Isn't Elune speculated to be a Naaru?

not this bullshit...

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Yes, it's a shame that it seems the last of the Dark Trolls were wiped out by the Twilight Hammer. Here's hoping there are survivors (yay supposedlys)!

My only issue with that is I'd like to interact with one. SHEEZ.... seeing them wiped out makes me sad. Excluding the Mogu, they are evil bastages.

Isn't Elune speculated to be a Naaru?

Speculated even though I highly highly disagree and disapprove of it.

[Uennie]

Once again, me calling out your made up BS has nothing to do with what I like or don't like. There's isn't any lore of substance with respect to Dark Trolls anywhere in the WoW universe. There's little snip its which amount to nothing. I don't get why you can't see this, but that's not my problem.

This too. A clever way for Blizzard to create a primer (saying Night Elves came from Dark Trolls) but not have to write about it (but the Dark Trolls were eradicated by the Twilight's Hammer).

So you're saying that in the lore that they didn't attack anyone and were instead attacked, that didn't exist? Because it's RIGHT there. Just because it's not good enough for you, doesn't mean it's not lore, and it's pretty ridiculous that you're saying that it doesn't count. You can't pick and choose what parts of lore exist and what don't. Even I can admit when I'm wrong. It's the only lore we have, but it's still lore.

[Wyrt]

Isn't Elune speculated to be a Naaru?

Yes, she is a floating magical light windchime and angry night elves will be at your door momentarily to beat you.

[Justignoreme]

My only issue with that is I'd like to interact with one. SHEEZ.... seeing them wiped out makes me sad. Excluding the Mogu, they are evil bastages.

You'd think the Zandalari would've at least taken some interest in them. I suppose with the destruction of Zandalar, so too went troll records regarding the issue (so well thought out by cdev now if you think about it)

[Uennie]

I wish that were true but, canon is canon -.-


not this bullshit...

I didn't said I agreed with it. I was just commenting on what he said.

You are really getting worked up over this.

[Thrive]

except he didn't, its very clearly stated that garrosh made the attack against ashenvale following the shattering, taking advantage of the weaken night elven defenses.

before that the horde and alliance were at peace following the events of wrath.

learn the lore before you start talking.

He openly attacked the Warchief, told them peace was over. He DECLARED war, and Garrosh started the actual fighting of it.