Talisman of Bloodlust + Rune of Re-Origination

[soxyboi]

Just trying to work out if it would be possible to use these 2 trinkets together to gain double the amount of ToB haste rating as mastery without the negative effects due to haste not reducing below 0%

This would mean 7681 more mastery than haste on gear to force massive mastery procs from RoR.

this would mean approx 10k mastery 2k haste 3k crit on gear, PLUS 7680 haste buff also being transferred to haste in the equation.

10k + 2(2k+3K+7680)
10k + (2 * 12680)
10k + 25360
35360 mastery during proc = 206% poison damage.
+ 28% base
+ 17.5% mastery buff
= 251.5% poison damage during RoR proc.

Havent tried to get a bis armor set for this, but just wondered if this could be viable in any way shape or form. (Possibly combined with shuriken toss?)

[Smashysmashy]

I was playing with some maths on this idea the other day. i assumed the 22sec ICD with 10sec uptime = 10/22 uptime duration, and reforged my current gear from mastery to crit/haste and i yielded a dps increase (assuming inst proc after ICD comes off). RoRO could definitely shake up stat priority and i'm thinking that this could possibly work.

[Kael]

While, in theory, this could work, both ToB and RoR use RPPM, sooo you don't control the procs. In the event you didn't have 7681 more mastery than haste on gear, you'd be, well, shit out of luck and stuck with a ton of haste if this occurred.

Could it work? Yes. Would you rely on it? No. I'd wait to see how simcraft shows it coming forth, and, as Smashysmashy points out, more likely reforge haste/crit closer to mastery to benefit more consistently from the proc, rather than try to time RoR with ToB's proc.

[aggixx]

You'd have to have an incredibly specific set of gear to abuse the fact that haste cannot go negative. This is not something you would be able to achieve without months of farming.

---------- Post added 2013-02-26 at 03:09 PM ----------

Do note that ToB shouldn't be sitting at 5 stacks most of the time anyway; you'll certainly have a high chance of feeling that negative effect. 7681 haste from ToB becomes over 15k mastery, haste goes to 0, RPPM lowers as a result of lost haste, ToB doesn't self-renew, and haste hits -7681, is a more likely situation.

No, haste rating cannot go below 0 rating. That was the whole idea.

Edit: Source: http://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/2...t-ii/#post1606

[Smashysmashy]

My stat weights with current gear are: Mastery - 1.264, Crit - 1.071, Haste - 1.022.
With the assumption of 10/22 uptime (0.4545) this gives the stat weights for Crit - 1.733 and Haste - 1.706. plug these into your sims to compare the other trinkets and should tell you whats best. as haste cant drop below 0. haste potentially has a higher weight if its gunna drop off.

[aggixx]

I was playing with some maths on this idea the other day. i assumed the 22sec ICD with 10sec uptime = 10/22 uptime duration, and reforged my current gear from mastery to crit/haste and i yielded a dps increase (assuming inst proc after ICD comes off). RoRO could definitely shake up stat priority and i'm thinking that this could possibly work.

Rune of Reorigination most definitely does not proc after the ICD comes up, that is not how RPPM trinkets work at all. The ICD on RPPM trinkets has a near negligible effect on the trinket's uptime. If you want use a number for napkin math you should use something like 17.5 or 20% depending on if you have low or high haste.

That said, you are correct in that it has a tendency to greatly affect stat weights and it may be a DPS gain to reforge for the sole purpose of maximizing the proc.

Also, those numbers in the above post make no sense at all. The value of your stats is not going to almost double just because you have a trinket.

[Maelstrom51]

The ICD on RPPM trinkets has a near negligible effect on the trinket's uptime.

That's not entirely true. A 22 second ICD adds a good 12 seconds between each proc, since the maximum time between proc chances is capped at 10 seconds.

[aggixx]

That's not entirely true. A 22 second ICD adds a good 12 seconds between each proc, since the maximum time between proc chances is capped at 10 seconds.

I'm aware of the mechanic, you lose 12 seconds worth of proc chance to each ICD, but that's not incredibly significant. Sure it might be something like 10 or 20% less uptime than if there was no ICD, but my point was relative to a non RPPM based ICD trinket where the uptime is almost entirely dependant on the ICD, the ICD is largely irrelevant.

[Kael]

No, haste rating cannot go below 0 rating. That was the whole idea.

Edit: Source: http://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/2...t-ii/#post1606

99% sure haste was the only exception to that rule, but iirc it only affected some parts of haste's effects. I'll see if I can find it...

EDIT: D'OH. Completely backwards. Changing first post. Haste IS the exception, in that it doesn't go negative. Derp.

[Koji2k11]

i tried out RoR and i didnt like it after it procced i had 140% more damage from mastery on assassination but lost all my crit i got below 13% there if thats the price for a short period of time loosing 8% crit i'd rather take something more reliable,also i had the feeling i did less dmg with the rune proc then without maybe it just bugged cause my deadly was tiking for like 59k before then after it procced was tiking for like 45k and yes i checked if it was instant deadly or the deadly tik itself you can see it by looking at recount comparing numbers

[soxyboi]

i tried out RoR and i didnt like it after it procced i had 140% more damage from mastery on assassination but lost all my crit i got below 13% there if thats the price for a short period of time loosing 8% crit i'd rather take something more reliable,also i had the feeling i did less dmg with the rune proc then without maybe it just bugged cause my deadly was tiking for like 59k before then after it procced was tiking for like 45k and yes i checked if it was instant deadly or the deadly tik itself you can see it by looking at recount comparing numbers

Lets say with 100% mastery and 13% crit your poisons hit for 100k and 200k on crit. so in 100 poison attacks you would have:
(100k * 87) + (200k * 13)
8700k + 2600k
11300k or 11.3mil damage

Whereas with RoR you would have flat damage ie no crits so lets say 270% mastery which equates to 185k per poison attack
185k * 100
18500k or 18.5mil

Obviously the amount of poison attacks would be less due to haste loss, but the damage difference means that 100% of our poison attack would be doing near crit damage.

so lets say you run with 20% haste normally, and give 20 extra attacks to non-RoR example, and ill even round up the amount of crits rather than down. (3 not 2.6)
(100k * 104) + (200k * 16)
10400k + 3200k
13600k or 13.6mil damage

still a fair way behind ToB/RoR abuse.

Obviously this is all rough calculations just to show the theory.

EDIT: Have not added in crit from agility and buffs, which would in fact make TobRor even further ahead. Just so you know

[kindath]

Not possible. Talisman has a base RPPM of 3, and you'd have to have enough haste to push that PPM higher than 6 to pretty much ever get the full five stacks. And given that your idea is to keep mastery above haste even with full stacks, that's not going to happen.

I mean, there is a slight chance that you'll get it up to 5 stacks without that much haste, but not only would you have to get really lucky on that proc, but then you'd also have to get rune to proc while it's at 5 stacks.

Sorry to burst your bubble...

[Deleted]

Not possible. Talisman has a base RPPM of 3, and you'd have to have enough haste to push that PPM higher than 6 to pretty much ever get the full five stacks. And given that your idea is to keep mastery above haste even with full stacks, that's not going to happen.

I mean, there is a slight chance that you'll get it up to 5 stacks without that much haste, but not only would you have to get really lucky on that proc, but then you'd also have to get rune to proc while it's at 5 stacks.

Sorry to burst your bubble...

Wouldn't you push the PPM up the more stacks you'd get though? So once you get the first stack, you'd have a higher chance proccing the next and so on? I'm not into theorycrafting so don't chop my b***s off if I missed something (and I'd very much appreciate an explaination to help me (and possibly others who are like me) to understand).

[Koji2k11]

Lets say with 100% mastery and 13% crit your poisons hit for 100k and 200k on crit. so in 100 poison attacks you would have:
(100k * 87) + (200k * 13)
8700k + 2600k
11300k or 11.3mil damage

Whereas with RoR you would have flat damage ie no crits so lets say 270% mastery which equates to 185k per poison attack
185k * 100
18500k or 18.5mil

Obviously the amount of poison attacks would be less due to haste loss, but the damage difference means that 100% of our poison attack would be doing near crit damage.

so lets say you run with 20% haste normally, and give 20 extra attacks to non-RoR example, and ill even round up the amount of crits rather than down. (3 not 2.6)
(100k * 104) + (200k * 16)
10400k + 3200k
13600k or 13.6mil damage

still a fair way behind ToB/RoR abuse.

Obviously this is all rough calculations just to show the theory.

EDIT: Have not added in crit from agility and buffs, which would in fact make TobRor even further ahead. Just so you know

wow that a very very rough calculation not even close to something near reality i can rember the last time i did 200k envenom crits on live my highest was like 160k+(raidbuffed) even with the 20% buff i wont be able to do 200k crits with my current gear maybe with BiS gear which i dont posses,and thats just envenom my DP ticks arent even that high and i have almost 90% raidbuffed my dp ticks are like 60-70k which is also a rough number since idk for how much i crit with DP tiks if i lose lets say 8% crit i have 19% on live currently unbuffed but i gain a 40% more dmg my crits would be doing around (rough estimated maybe 60k unbuffed) but there is still this 8% less crit which makes me crit alot less so i think it kind of evens out.

i just had the feeling where RoR procced i did less dmg i ran 2 test sessions both for 5 minutes the first was t15 gear mixed with my current live gear with heroic bottle of inifine stars and relic of xuen i ended up at 71,5k dps unbuffed in the raidboss dummy

the second test was under same conditions but with RoR and bottle heroic i ended up at 72k dps almost same damage done overall i think it was like 200-300k difference between them normal rotation was used no pot or prepot popping vendetta+sb

i think at current stat where i have old gear from t14 its not that good but gets better once you reach BiS t15 since you get alot more agility and more crit from agility

but thats just my way of testing things out in Theory monkey are able to fly and pigs could drive cars and time travels are possible but thats just theory

[Mazius]

wow that a very very rough calculation not even close to something near reality i can rember the last time i did 200k envenom crits on live my highest was like 160k+(raidbuffed) even with the 20% buff i wont be able to do 200k crits with my current gear maybe with BiS gear which i dont posses.

I'm 2 items away from BiS (both from heroic elite protectors) and 300k+ envenom is not something special.

[Koji2k11]

I'm 2 items away from BiS (both from heroic elite protectors) and 300k+ envenom is not something special.

well if you raid 25s then it might be nothing special where you have all kinds of buffs i dont think its possible even in BiS gear in 10 man setups since you would miss TotT and like our setup does skull banner

[Mazius]

well if you raid 25s then it might be nothing special where you have all kinds of buffs i dont think its possible even in BiS gear in 10 man setups since you would miss TotT and like our setup does skull banner

What do you mеan by "all kind of buffs"?
Apart from the banner you need only 3 buffs to boost your envenom - mastery, 5% agi and 10% ap.
You don't have warriors/DK's/paladins/smanans/monks/druids in your raid?

[Koji2k11]

What do you mеan by "all kind of buffs"?
Apart from the banner you need only 3 buffs to boost your envenom - mastery, 5% agi and 10% ap.
You don't have warriors/DK's/paladins/smanans/monks/druids in your raid?

well i think you forgot tricks which is a minor buff aswell i dont have banner nor do i have another rogue to trick me also more warriors = more banners a big dps gain there

[Mazius]

Banner is not that important, ToT buffs envenom more, than banner does.
P.S. On ptr atm, HC Jin'rokh tests, gear scaled to 522 ilvl, seen 200k envenom hits and 400k envenom crits (on pull before the puddle spawn).

[Koji2k11]

Banner is not that important, ToT buffs envenom more, than banner does.
P.S. On ptr atm, HC Jin'rokh tests, gear scaled to 522 ilvl, seen 200k envenom hits and 400k envenom crits (on pull before the puddle spawn).

banner helps alot on pull imo also popping al CD using macroed VD+SB