Patch 5.2 Warlock discussion

[Deleted]

My PoV (long time Rogue, only recently converted to Warlock but had once an adventure in PvP during BC):

Pets have buggy AI and isn't anymore fun to play with than not having them. I'd actually be OK playing with one had it not so many issues (pet travelling time, getting stuck, not attacking, dying stupidly, etc.) I might be the only one on this side of the argument, but I don't find it fun to have to micromanage my pet.

It sure looks like it's "hard" work to manage the pet, but so is managing better MG/DS uptimes. I realize they had to nerf it cause it was out of hands, but I disagree strongly with them nerfing it to oblivion. The pet shouldn't be the only defining criteria of the Warlock class, and it sure isn't a mere Shadow Priest or Fire Mage when the Warlock sacs its pet. The unique resources system is, to me, the defining criteria of the class.

On a side note, I despise with the greatest hatred the Supremacy demons: the Wrathgard is ridiculous (and so are its tiny teensy weapons), Shivarra is seriously not as cool as the Succubus, the Fel Imp actually looks like the regular Imp so that's OK, the Observer is actually cool looking but again so is the Felhunter (who wouldn't want to have an army of WoW-zergling at his sides?!).

I feel like it'd be much better if all our pets (aside the Felguard/Wrathguard) were more or less ranged (still doing great, albeit lesser DPS while on the move), if the devs had fixed the few issues (pet pathing, pet not benefiting from various encounters's buffs and debuffs) and offered us with a minor glyph to keep the demons's regular appearance. Affli with Felhunter (w/ GSup & minor glyph) would kick ass if it had semi-ranged attacks.

Scaling with Mastery should be considered, too. It shouldn't be as good as Demono's scaling, but still. That's the one area where a Warlock scales the worst since Mastery was introduced.

[Deleted]

I've rarely had issues with pets this tier outside of heroic protectors? Then again, I haven't used the pets too much this tier. In regards to "useless", the dps from an imps firebolt alone is around the 16-17k mark in my current ilvl. The serviced imp is hitting 24k dps over it's duration. The difference is not that much.

Tried pets a bit to get "prepared" for 5.1 (even though I'll prolly go Demo or stick to GoSac because the difference doesnt seem THAT major), and from my experience there are some wierd things going on.

They despawn randomly or glitch out on Sha, they dont work very well on Elegon, they die quite randomly on Vizier hc during attenuation (our hunters also complained about this, only way to stop it was to set pet on passive), they also sometimes die on Feng hc during the earthquake, why that is I'm not exactly sure and it's only happened once, but still! They dont seem to work very well on HC Protectors either, and on WotE HC unless you use an imp they spend most of their time running to and fro between things you want to DPS. (One way around this is ofc to set pet on passive and have it attacking one of the bosses full time, but when you want to DPS an add then it becomes a bit lame).

So yeah, seems they're not the greatest on quite a few of the current fights, hence the convenience offered by GoSac is quite nifty (and it gives more DPS so win/win really).

[Zinnin]

and offered us with a minor glyph to keep the demons's regular appearance.

WTB, I personally hate the Wrathguard compared to the Felguard. I do like Void Lord \ Observer though. Wouldn't be a bad minor glyph option IMO.

[Cypherr]

Okay so I have a question for the affi locks that were testing H PTR yesterday. How were we pairing up against demo? And we're you using GoSac or GoSup?

Also, anyone else think we may be going for much more haste if we use GoSup?

[Jessicka]

Tried pets a bit to get "prepared" for 5.1 (even though I'll prolly go Demo or stick to GoSac because the difference doesnt seem THAT major), and from my experience there are some wierd things going on.

They despawn randomly or glitch out on Sha, they dont work very well on Elegon, they die quite randomly on Vizier hc during attenuation (our hunters also complained about this, only way to stop it was to set pet on passive), they also sometimes die on Feng hc during the earthquake, why that is I'm not exactly sure and it's only happened once, but still! They dont seem to work very well on HC Protectors either, and on WotE HC unless you use an imp they spend most of their time running to and fro between things you want to DPS. (One way around this is ofc to set pet on passive and have it attacking one of the bosses full time, but when you want to DPS an add then it becomes a bit lame).

So yeah, seems they're not the greatest on quite a few of the current fights, hence the convenience offered by GoSac is quite nifty (and it gives more DPS so win/win really).

Vizier it's because they get to the boss before your tank, and as the boss is fixed they are on the receiving end of the first melee swings, it's easily enough managed by paying attention and making sure your pet switches to the echo rather than following the boss between platforms. Same can happen on Elegon if the tank switch is sloppy, but that's as bad for any melee as it is your pet. Never had an issue on Sha or Feng.

But again, what sense does it make to double the punishment of using pets with low DPS and inconvenience?

And damn, have people really forgotten how to manage pets already? I dread to think what would happen if KJC got nerfed and Affliction Warlocks were expected to use Fel Flame on the move again...

[Alaira]

Yeah, it is insane to pick a pet class, then whine about having a pet. It's also insane that the same people who whined about GC commenting on the complexity of certain specs, are then DEMANDING that the easier, better QoL talent option for their own spec be the 'go to' choice.

I don't know how long you've been paying attention to Warlocks, but here's the part you and Ghostcrawler seem to be missing. Warlocks are a class with pets; not a pet class by definition. Demonology is a spec with heavy focus on pets. Affliction is DoTs and curses. Destruction is well... destructive.

The first two releases of the game (Vanilla and BC) had the ability to sacrifice pets for a DPS gain, which was balanced against having a pet so that it wasn't just a DPS increase. It was removed for a time (Wrath and Cata, I believe) and is now an option again. Blizzard tipped the scales a bit, too far in favor of sacrifice, and does need to make adjustments. What they do not need to do is pigeon hole everyone back into using a pet because it fits with a notion at odds with available mechanics.

No one should be demanding that GoSac should be the go-to option. It should, however, be an option without choosing to hug the healers on the damage meter.
Both you and Ghostcrawler need to stop forcing your vision of "pets for all or gtfo" upon the rest of us.

This thread should be about balance, not your vision of the class. The rest of us are content to allow pets to do competitive DPS. Pony up or shut up, IMO.

Edit:
My apologies to the moderator(s). I was a couple pages behind when the post was made. Discussion will return to numbers.

[Aciddot]

Same can happen on Elegon if the tank switch is sloppy, but that's as bad for any melee as it is your pet.

I think he is referring to H Elegon, where the LoS mechanic really messes with the pet AI. My doomguard often doesn't even attack once when I summon him.

[Kuroto]

Except I read through this thread, on twitter, on the official forums, that the #1 reason people don't want to use their pet is because it is HARD, because it requires MANAGEMENT. They like Sac because it's efficient. Never does anyone say it because of wanting the challenge.

From what I'm gathering, people are saying there are mechanics that are bugged with a pet, which doesn't make it harder or more challenging, but more frustrating, because you have no control over it when it happens (LoS on Elegon, not getting damage buff on Protectors, etc.).

Otherwise, say if GoSup and GoSac are equal, it should be like this:

With GoSup, you do 100k, and your pets do 20k for a total of 120k damage.
With GoSac, you do 120k, and your pets do 0 for a total of 120k damage.

Sounds fair, right? But what if you don't execute your rotation perfectly, and only do 80% of that damage (lag issues, movement, used cooldown at wrong point, etc.):

With GoSup, you do 80k, and your pets do 20k for a total of 100k damage.
With GoSac, you do 96k, and your pets do 0 for a total of 96k damage.

GoSac is only efficient in cases where the fight has mechanics that dramatically improves the damage of the player, but not the pet. This can be fights with damage buffs or multiple targets, which is basically every fights these days... which is why we're seeing these nerf. It's not because GoSac is easier to play.

[Paarthurnax]

WTB, I personally hate the Wrathguard compared to the Felguard. I do like Void Lord \ Observer though. Wouldn't be a bad minor glyph option IMO.

I guess seeing the normal Felguard model for so many years has me liking something new more (at least for now). The only thing i'm kind of miffed about is the Offhand Wrathguard bug where randomly its offhand will just go away. I xmoged his weapons for a reason damnit!

[xskarma]

The only thing i'm kind of miffed about is the Offhand Wrathguard bug where randomly its offhand will just go away. I xmoged his weapons for a reason damnit!

Ran into that while Demo past few days. Kinda sad to see him standing there with just 1 weapon in his hand looking glum.

[villie]

But again, what sense does it make to double the punishment of using pets with low DPS and inconvenience?

And damn, have people really forgotten how to manage pets already? I dread to think what would happen if KJC got nerfed and Affliction Warlocks were expected to use Fel Flame on the move again...

So is managing a pet because of terrible AI, pathing issues and bugging a lot of the time compelling gameplay?? No its just goddam frustrating!!

I rolled a lock, because it was a pet class. I loved running with a pet as it brought that extra dimension to the class and great utility in the pvp environment. But over the years expansion after expansion and as raid fight mechanics steadly got more complicated the pet design system seems to have not kept up, yes they got avoidance which has helped massivley for aoe damage but the actual real issues like pathing, target switching, health pools and AI haven't changed at all.

Enter Cataclysm and fights like Alysrazor and Deathwing to name two of the worst and a lot of people had had enough. I for one switched class, granted not just because of the frustrating pet issues but it did play a part. Now take all those pissed off locks who remember all the years of mongo pet behaviour and offer them a way to not have to put up with it and buff their damage in lieu of the pet and is it any wonder than GoSac is so popular???

Yes blizzard wants us to use pets, but it also wants to cater to the players who want to sacrifice their pet for power, it fits with the lore, the problem is that the AI. If both talents in a vacuum produced exactly the same dps i would hazard a guess that the majority would run with GoSac purely for not having to put up with the AI, leaving pet lovers who are only being punished because of the AI itself, so by that logic the only way to make us use pets is the nerf the shit out of GoSac to the point where its such a loss were forced to not choose it. If they are going to do that they should just straight out delete the talent and draw a line in the sand.

People who pick GoSup because they want to run with a pet should not be punished with lower dps, all the talents should be within an acceptable % margin, however they are punished with having to put up with the terrible AI which will in a lot of instances cause them to under perform to a GoSac lock because its a passive damage buff.

Conclusion: If both talents produce the same dps in sims, the majority with go with GoSac because of the pet AI; therefore fix the pet AI then the people who want to use a pet can do so without a dps loss and the people who don't want to use a pet can do so for whatever goddam reason they want as it wont matter you wont do anymore damage.

[Deleted]

I really can't see the issue with having a pet, I LOVE GoSac, and I also didn't play cata so I didn't get to experience buggy boss fights.
Last time I had a pet was simply imp sitting on the boss, giving me free crits every so often in Wotlk, My only complaint was when stuns were up and my imp was still attacking the boss, lowering my dps but keeping my damage high (I like big dps numbers)

I just don't want to be shoehorned into playing demo is it has an advantage over affi, cycling through countless targets, applying corr/doom is really vile part of AoE mechanics.

[Xanatas]

they could make sacrifice a burst aoe talent, something like service. making the sacrifice only temporary.

not this pls... i LOVE so much GoSac...

[Seiru]

Here's more charts using the latest PTR data (Immolate/Conflag down to +15%, Sac down to 30%, Haunt debuff +5%). Please remember that PTR_*** means it's PTR data, and otherwise it's how it is on live (5.1).

Also there's a margin of error of like 200 dps so please don't pay attention to minor differences like that.

[Deleted]

... Try doing the same thing with the 2 targets simulations (if you have spare time ), it must be pretty awful for Destro.

[Apero]

Is the affli supremacy using a haste build or regular mastery heavy? Because having a pet should favor haste really strong over mastery.
Besides that, on pure singletarget you can use sacrifice, hope they stop nerfing it now..

[Nemah]

I don't know how long you've been paying attention to Warlocks, but here's the part you and Ghostcrawler seem to be missing. Warlocks are a class with pets; not a pet class by definition. Demonology is a spec with heavy focus on pets. Affliction is DoTs and curses. Destruction is well... destructive.

The first two releases of the game (Vanilla and BC) had the ability to sacrifice pets for a DPS gain, which was balanced against having a pet so that it wasn't just a DPS increase. It was removed for a time (Wrath and Cata, I believe) and is now an option again. Blizzard tipped the scales a bit, too far in favor of sacrifice, and does need to make adjustments. What they do not need to do is pigeon hole everyone back into using a pet because it fits with a notion at odds with available mechanics.

No one should be demanding that GoSac should be the go-to option. It should, however, be an option without choosing to hug the healers on the damage meter.
Both you and Ghostcrawler need to stop forcing your vision of "pets for all or gtfo" upon the rest of us.

I suppose it's somewhat subjective, but warlocks have pretty much always been considered a "pet class" alongside hunters. Look at the wording on Blizz's own page about them:

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/game/class/warlock

I've been around long enough to remember the various iterations of warlocks since Vanilla. I don't know that I'd necessarily point to Sacrifice days as a good idea back in TBC in particular. It was ridiculously overpowered / broken to the point of stupidity. Sacrifice wasn't "right" then, and it isn't "right" now, so they're changing it.

We all just need to wait and see what happens when it all goes live. A reasonably decent warlock player has never been in danger of "hugging the healers" on the dps meters. Ever.

[Seiru]

Is the affli supremacy using a haste build or regular mastery heavy? Because having a pet should favor haste really strong over mastery.
Besides that, on pure singletarget you can use sacrifice, hope they stop nerfing it now..

You can see what gear those profiles use on www.simulationcraft.org, they're the same gear profiles as the Afflic/Destro/Demo T14H profiles.

[Deleted]

Are you kidding me? How can Affli/GoSac possibly be topping the warlock rankings?

Because this is without the nerfs ?

[Apero]

Are you kidding me? How can Affli/GoSac possibly be topping the warlock rankings?

It does not? 129k , same like sup , demo have 132k. Better take a look at it again.