5.2 Shaman changes

[EruptorNZ]

what is wrong then in your opinion with the 4p? as in how to fix it?

With the 4 piece, the Ascendance cooldown works out to be 2:10-2:20. With different fight lengths, this can be a dps loss due to getting the same number of ascendance's out, but the 3 minute ascendance doing more damage from potentially lining up with skull banner everytime.

I'd say scrap the 4 piece and create a new one attributing to the lightning theme, or change it so its a 2 minute cooldown

[Nitwit]

what is wrong then in your opinion with the 4p? as in how to fix it?

Not enough information to make any firm conclusions.

The "issue" with the 4p bonus is that the cooldown reduction it provides isn't that substantial - you need the fight to last ~7 minutes before it actually translates into an increase in the number of ascendances you use. Since SimC (default settings) gives you fight lengths that last anywhere between 6-9 minutes, the bonus isn't doing anything for you at all about ~1/3 of the time in the sim (all it's doing is desyncing ascendance with cooldowns like skull banner, translating into lost DPS).

Are those "short" fights really that common? Doubtful, and especially not during progression. Should the sim be using ascendance roughly on cooldown even if it isn't going to translate into more total casts during the sim? Again, probably not, but it's somewhat complicated to get the sim to use it too much more intelligently than that.

Basically, chances are pretty good that the bonus is a weak one, but it's probably not an outright LOSS like the sim suggests. They could fix it by increasing the cooldown reduction provided so that it's a gain for more possible fight lengths, or they could replace it with something else entirely. All I know is that while every other spec on that list is seeing set bonuses worth, say, 3-5k each on average (with some noticeable outliers on the high end, e.g. combat), and gains of perhaps 5-10k for the meta, elemental is seeing NEGATIVE 500-1000 or so DPS from its 4p, and only ~1.5-2k from the meta. So that's potentially 7-12k simulated dps or so the spec could pick up from itemization fixes rather than from tweaks to its actual mechanics.

[bokonan]

as for tortos, the turtles all spawn in the same place to start, so you will probably be able to cleave them with at least a few casts. and it seems like the bats have extremely low health relatively, so cleave and instant aoes are going to be the way to go here, especially because the bats will not necessarily be stationary. this will depends on your tank's ability to pick them up right away, but if a dps decides to use a long-cast pure aoe ability on them, you run the risk of a) missing (or partially missing) the place of where the adds get tanked, b) losing ~2 seconds (or approximately 2 casts of CL) of effective damage on the bats that may not even live long enough to see your aoe ability through to completion.

it's true that there are issues with our 4 pc, and especially true that we have significant problems with the legendary meta, something GC has already touched on. hopefully we will see some changes to one or both of these - although it seems to be wishful thinking about the 4 piece.

also simcraft has its uses, it's a great tool, but just posting "here's simcraft, i'm right, you're wrong!" is not very effective. this has already been discussed and reasoning has been given as to why it's not a very good method of argument. mods and blues have stated this many times. yes, there are issues with elemental, but at some point, you have to stop playing the victim and start to see things objectively

[Roosky]

Not enough information to make any firm conclusions.

The "issue" with the 4p bonus is that the cooldown reduction it provides isn't that substantial - you need the fight to last ~7 minutes before it actually translates into an increase in the number of ascendances you use. Since SimC (default settings) gives you fight lengths that last anywhere between 6-9 minutes, the bonus isn't doing anything for you at all about ~1/3 of the time in the sim (all it's doing is desyncing ascendance with cooldowns like skull banner, translating into lost DPS).

Are those "short" fights really that common? Doubtful, and especially not during progression. Should the sim be using ascendance roughly on cooldown even if it isn't going to translate into more total casts during the sim? Again, probably not, but it's somewhat complicated to get the sim to use it too much more intelligently than that.

Basically, chances are pretty good that the bonus is a weak one, but it's probably not an outright LOSS like the sim suggests. They could fix it by increasing the cooldown reduction provided so that it's a gain for more possible fight lengths, or they could replace it with something else entirely. All I know is that while every other spec on that list is seeing set bonuses worth, say, 3-5k each on average (with some noticeable outliers on the high end, e.g. combat), and gains of perhaps 5-10k for the meta, elemental is seeing NEGATIVE 500-1000 or so DPS from its 4p, and only ~1.5-2k from the meta. So that's potentially 7-12k simulated dps or so the spec could pick up from itemization fixes rather than from tweaks to its actual mechanics.

Most of ToT fights are 10 min enrages, curious to what people think in just not going for the 4pc since we have thunderforge offpieces granted its RNG if you get one to drop but if the 4pc is suppose to be a DPS loss why not pick up better itemized offpieces and just use the 2pc

[zenga]

Most of ToT fights are 10 min enrages, curious to what people think in just not going for the 4pc since we have thunderforge offpieces granted its RNG if you get one to drop but if the 4pc is suppose to be a DPS loss why not pick up better itemized offpieces and just use the 2pc

Because a setbonus is not supposed to be a dps loss in the first place ...

[Roosky]

Because a setbonus is not supposed to be a dps loss in the first place ...

I know that...

[Sarevokcz]

Because a setbonus is not supposed to be a dps loss in the first place ...

its not a dps loss anyway, at worst, it gives zero bonus, only reason it sims as dps loss is (i think) because it follows the old "pop Ascendance asap" model, which completely desynergizes it with War Banner and sim doesnt run long enough for it to get the one extra Ascendance, that would offset the -20% dmg from every Banner after the first one. Im holding my final judgement till i test it myself, but i was saying it is a poop of a setbonus since the day blizz announced them.

[mrinvisable2]

its not a dps loss anyway, at worst, it gives zero bonus, only reason it sims as dps loss is (i think) because it follows the old "pop Ascendance asap" model, which completely desynergizes it with War Banner and sim doesnt run long enough for it to get the one extra Ascendance, that would offset the -20% dmg from every Banner after the first one. Im holding my final judgement till i test it myself, but i was saying it is a poop of a setbonus since the day blizz announced them.

Then whats point of 4set if don't use asap and hold untill next skull banner and stuff?

[stomination]

Then whats point of 4set if don't use asap and hold untill next skull banner and stuff?

One point could be having it up for times when dps is buffed. But who knows really.

[Recom]

Is there a simC priority list that tries to multimot ? Maybe it would be beneficial with the 4p.

[Roosky]

I didn't even get my current 4pc until heroic sha was dead so i'm not going to bother going for it again this tier when it's a pretty horrible 4pc

atm i'm leaning towards using only 2pc with 3 offpieces for max sockets & int

would be using tier shoulders + chest as there's no offpiece that has 2 sockets on shoulders or 3 sockets in chest

offpieces would be

gloves - http://ptr.wowhead.com/item=96466

helm - http://ptr.wowhead.com/item=96509

legs - http://ptr.wowhead.com/item=96564

[Darksoldierr]

Rofl at the twitter comments from gc

[Sarevokcz]

Then whats point of 4set if don't use asap and hold untill next skull banner and stuff?

Like I said, it is imo very poor setbonus, however there are situations where you would want to pop it asap and then there are those that you wouldnt. Im pretty sure someone whos gonna bother will come up with graph thats gonna show if you should pop it on CD or not depending on time lenght. Kinda like we had that graph of when is FE worth glyphing or not. As an example 6min fight (like garajal) where you normally get only 2 Ascendances, you get an extra one by popping 2nd Ascendance sooner.

[woopytywoop]

Rofl at the twitter comments from gc

which one? this one?

Nikola Čulina ‏@Nikolaulina

@Ghostcrawler I respect you, but shaman community is infuriated with you Greg. Things need to change, this kind of relationship can't go on

Greg Street ‏@Ghostcrawler

@Nikolaulina Shaman BBQ? My place?

Lead developer sets an example of professionalism.
Maybe we should hire a bus and go to the BBQ...


[User was infracted for this post]

Death threats against developers, even implied, are not acceptable.

[Darksoldierr]

Hah, well in that case count me in

[Deleted]

which one? this one?




Lead developer sets an example of professionalism.
Maybe we should hire a bus and go to the BBQ...

In before Bus Shock jokes.

On topic hows our damage compared to other classes w/o ToT trinkets and legendary meta gem and/or set bonuses from T15?

[Raiju]

Monks are a new class, and they don't really have a dedicated SimC developer. Take their results with a grain of salt (I know I haven't been seeing WW monks at the top of PTR logs).

Do you have an up to date on list on which specs have dedicated developers? Back in cata enhance was being handled by a mage/spriest where the mage said flame shock is the most important spell as it's a dot and the spriest put 69 seconds of spells in a 60 second timeframe due to not understanding the spec - who's doing it now?

[Michelangelo]

The thing with Elemental 4-pc is...

As a 10m raider with no Warrior in our group, and someone who tries to use it with Ancestral Guidance for huge heals, I'm liking the set-bonus. At the same time, however, it should still be a dps gain for everyone, and not just those unlucky enough to lack a Warrior!

[Deleted]

Better to pray for some tweeks before patch go live folks! Even its only sim, it might give u some image how things gonna be.

http://i.imgur.com/412acA2.png

[Deleted]

Better to pray for some tweeks before patch go live folks! Even its only sim, it might give u some image how things gonna be.

http://i.imgur.com/412acA2.png

Sorry but this is bullshit. I doubt Affli and Arcane will be the top specs in 5.2 - Affliction got GoSac nerfed to the ground and is so much closer to other Warlock's specs. The same case is with Arcane. So try again.