Horridon 10/25 N Strategy (<500 ilvl)

[Aquamonkey]

Looks like I did misunderstand the pick up group line, but that doesn't really change anything. It doesn't matter that normal raiders don't have 502. The blue you just quoted explains that they use estimation for the tuning of normal modes. That means they don't actually need to set ptr ilvl at exactly what their goal is. And again, if they undershoot and its absolutely brutal then they waste testing time because they will have to adjust it so the mechanics can be tested later.

You are using my terms differently than I was. I'm saying 502 is generous because it is more than you actually need to do them if they are at the level the designers think they are at. You are saying it is generous because a normal mode raid isn't going to have that much, which again doesn't matter because they clearly said they used estimation for the tuning.

Yes, I know it's all based on estimation. They prefer to to tune bosses conservatively on live because they will only do adjustments to make bosses easier. However, this mostly applies to later bosses because gear from the earlier bosses make them easier. The earlier bosses tend to be tuned more generously to allow people to gear up for the later bosses. Just look at Jin'rokh, that was way overtuned on PTR with testers hitting the soft enrage. On live, this boss gets killed without hitting the 4th pool by people in less than 502 ilvl.

Because WoL shows the success rates for Horridon to be significantly lower than the bosses immediately before and after, it suggests they overtuned it or undertuned those other bosses.

[petesakan]

These guys got it down in 1 min.

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/g...?s=7545&e=7610

[Minaa]

we killed him and my guild is 16/16 normal and 3/16 hc so non of us +500 ilvl i hope this videos help u

[Odina]

These guys got it down in 1 min.

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/g...?s=7545&e=7610

Go to that log.... go to Creatures.... notice something missing? Yea a log where they take the last 1 min with full CD's and the boss taking 200% dmg is totaly going to help people in this thread...

[Sonnillon]

To Minaa, thanks for the video, but you are a 25-man grp killing it. The point is that in 25m you have buffs/debuffs covered as well as 3x the dps per mob that spwns on top of dispels and interrupts. It makes the fight bit more easier (not saying that your video is useless, it is not)

Lets say that in 10 man you have 5 DPS for 2 mobs (aka the priests in p2) and for all the effusions in p2. In 25 man you haev 17 DPS for 2 priests and all the effusions. That makes all the difference. The raw pewpew power on top of lot of people who can make up other people mistakes make the fight more easier.

[Akylios]

@Akylios
I have a serious problem with thinking of anything since even WotLK at MC level or even ZG/BWL level. That level means to me that it is tuned so that 25%+ of your raid can sit there and play absolutely horrendously and you can kill the bosses. I did MC and BWL and ZG (went into aq40 and died quite badly) and I'd say about 25-40% of the people in for those kills played like crap (as in just as bad as all of those lfr horror stories). You just needed enough people to do the important stuff.

Well, you couldn't have 25-40% of your raid play horrendously if you wanted to make good pace. While all the content could no doubt eventually have been cleared with such a group, it would probably have been at a painfully slow pace. I do know the old raids gradually got nerfed though, which probably helped speed things up a bit, but even so then there are encounters in both BWL and AQ40 that would probably be extremely infuriating with such a large proportion of bad players. To my knowledge they never really nerfed Naxxramas in the same way they did the other raid instances. Many encounters would probably have been all but impossible without a truly dedicated group. But it's been a while, so I have a very hard time discussing individual encounters at anything but the most basic level.

That being said, most of the good guilds I remember had a very good core group of around 20-25 players who raided together for a very long time, while filling the rest of the spots up with players at a lower skill level who often came and went much more regularly. How fast and far you managed to progress depended not only on the 20-25 man core group, but the other raiders who filled up the rest of the spots as well. If they were terrible, the pace of your progression would reflect this. It's probably very similar to 25 man raids today, except at a slightly larger scale. (Honestly, the hardest part about 40 man raiding was the management of the whole thing. To be an officer in an efficient raiding guild was like having a part time job. I'm not even remotely joking. Being able to raid with a small group of people is probably the single best addition to WoW I've experienced since returning to the game. It gives me everything I want from raiding, with only a fraction of the management hassles I had grown used to.)

At the end of the day though, my only frame of reference is Classic and MOP raids. I could perhaps have taken better examples if I had played the other expansions, but back in classic, MC was basically just a dungeon where you had to learn some very basic mechanics and after you nailed those, the bosses died. Ragnaros was a bit different, in that he was an actual DPS check. The hardest mechanic I can think of from T14 normal modes was the tank mechanic on Stone Guards. Beyond that I can't really think of any particularly challenging normal mode mechanic. Garalon was a bit different though, as he was an actual DPS check. This is why I compared the normal modes to MC, simply because they reminded me more of MC than any other dungeon. While the mechanics in BWL and ZG weren't terribly complicated either, the numbers were much, much more finely tuned than in MC. This is why I felt like comparing three of the Heroic fights to BWL and ZG. Heroic Will of the Emperor for instance only really adds a single new mechanic to the normal mode version of the fight, the Titan Sparks. How you deal with the sparks is pretty straightforward, but the hard part of the fight is that the numbers are simply much more finely tuned than on normal mode. Your DPS really needs to get all the adds down in a timely manner. Your healers really need to be at the top of their game and so on and so forth. This is very much how release-state BWL and ZG worked.

But yeah, perhaps there are some WotLK raid instances that would make for a better comparison, but this is the best I can do not having raided for 6 years straight until this January. I hope you at least understood the point I was trying to make in my previous post, even if you don't agree with the examples I used. If not, then at least you got an old fart's perspective on Classic raiding... which may or may not have been of interest to you.

I guess I'll end this discussion here though, as it doesn't add a single thing to the discussion of helpful tactics for bringing down Horridon, which is what this thread has evolved into.

[Minaa]

i didn't play 10men but i think the num of the adds in 25men will be x2 10men so i think its the same

[Sesshou]

To Minaa, thanks for the video, but you are a 25-man grp killing it. The point is that in 25m you have buffs/debuffs covered as well as 3x the dps per mob that spwns on top of dispels and interrupts. It makes the fight bit more easier (not saying that your video is useless, it is not)

Lets say that in 10 man you have 5 DPS for 2 mobs (aka the priests in p2) and for all the effusions in p2. In 25 man you haev 17 DPS for 2 priests and all the effusions. That makes all the difference. The raw pewpew power on top of lot of people who can make up other people mistakes make the fight more easier.

Yeah and you need the 3x dps because they have 3x the hp. You need 2 freaking interrupts. If you have even 1 melee you have that because you need a tank over there anyway. There is no way the number of things that need dispelled are the same in 10m, you get more crap cast in 25m. You can also pretty much have every buff/debuff in 10m if you have a good comp so that isn't an excuse.

And your comparison is off. If you are 3 healing, thats the equiv of 7 healing for 25m so 16 dps versus 15 dps and the mobs have triple the hp. Its perfectly balanced in terms of the dps part so stop whining about that.

The only thing maybe easier about it in 25m is that 25m guilds can probably stack MW monks easier. There is nothing from stopping a 10 from running 2 MW monks though. And I doubt most 25m guilds actually cared enough to stack them.

Edit:
So you 10m guys will stop spouting a bunch of BS about how its the same dispels but 25m have more dispellers:
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...?s=4031&e=4550
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...?s=6177&e=6703

Just from 2 random logs I picked form the rankings list with roughly the same fight duration. 10m had 31 diseases and 25m had 75. Plus every poison dot that you don't have a monk cd for is ticking on 2.5x as many people.

[Clogaline]

Yeah and you need the 3x dps because they have 3x the hp. You need 2 freaking interrupts. If you have even 1 melee you have that because you need a tank over there anyway. There is no way the number of things that need dispelled are the same in 10m, you get more crap cast in 25m. You can also pretty much have every buff/debuff in 10m if you have a good comp so that isn't an excuse.

And your comparison is off. If you are 3 healing, thats the equiv of 7 healing for 25m so 16 dps versus 15 dps and the mobs have triple the hp. Its perfectly balanced in terms of the dps part so stop whining about that.

The only thing maybe easier about it in 25m is that 25m guilds can probably stack MW monks easier. There is nothing from stopping a 10 from running 2 MW monks though. And I doubt most 25m guilds actually cared enough to stack them.

Edit:
So you 10m guys will stop spouting a bunch of BS about how its the same dispels but 25m have more dispellers:
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...?s=4031&e=4550
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...?s=6177&e=6703

Just from 2 random logs I picked form the rankings list with roughly the same fight duration. 10m had 31 diseases and 25m had 75. Plus every poison dot that you don't have a monk cd for is ticking on 2.5x as many people.

It's worth pointing out that poison, disease, curse, and chain lightning all do more damage per tick or hit on 25 man than 10. 50% more for the poison and disease, ~60% for the chain lightning, and just slightly higher than equal on the curse. Poison obviously scales with number of players, and I think the curse does too (it usually just seems to be afflicting ~5 of our melee, assuming it wouldn't be that high for 10man, but maybe someone else can comment on that). Despite that, I would still agree the fight seems harder on 10, due to fewer options with interrupts / dispels, larger portion of the raid targeted and diseased by the Drakkari, and being less likely to have a MW monk to trivialize the poison volley. Number of players per mob is only a meaningful argument for things like that, not for the actual dps numbers required to kill them, as the health is correctly adjusted between difficulties.

We haven't actually killed him yet on 25 but we have it figured out (dps has been low and a couple always end up getting themselves killed). As others have said in the thread, it's all about interrupts, dispels, and target priorities. I would like to add that handling Charge is pretty important as well - the raid member needs to be getting out and away (preferably towards Horridon) if he is targeted by the charge. There is plenty of time to react to this, and not only will it enable the rest of the raid to continue with their respective tasks, but there will be many fewer deaths due to people forgetting to run out of the double swipe or panicking and running into something else bad, like Living Poison or Lightning Totems.

[Aquamonkey]

i didn't play 10men but i think the num of the adds in 25men will be x2 10men so i think its the same

The number of adds is the same for both.

[Sesshou]

Despite that, I would still agree the fight seems harder on 10, due to fewer options with interrupts / dispels, larger portion of the raid targeted and diseased by the Drakkari, and being less likely to have a MW monk to trivialize the poison volley. Number of players per mob is only a meaningful argument for things like that, not for the actual dps numbers required to kill them, as the health is correctly adjusted between difficulties.

Why does any of that matter? Fewer options with interrupts? Irrelevant. You need TWO. You guaranteed have a tank who is tanking the crap anyway. If you are running with a really, really non standard comp that has 0 melee, well I guess that sucks, but who the hell runs 0 melee... Whats this larger portion of the raid crap? Its basically the same portion of the raid (and poison is still 100% but 2.5x more people) if you looked at those links, and yeah you have more options for dispelling them because theres a crap ton more.

Less likely to be running a monk doesn't mean something is harder. You can cheese it with a monk on both difficulties. Don't have one? Bring an alt if you want to cheese it. You do not need one, and I highly doubt blizzard tuned either difficulty under the assumption you had a MW monk (or more than one). That isn't really a valid point for the encounter about 10 vs 25, its about monk vs no monk and the size of the raid is absolutely irrelevant.

[Maelstrom51]

So you 10m guys will stop spouting a bunch of BS about how its the same dispels but 25m have more dispellers:
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...?s=4031&e=4550
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...?s=6177&e=6703

Its interesting how despite 25s have 2.5x as many people the disease only did 1.5x as much damage on 25 man. Its almost like its harder on 10 man.

[Deleted]

i didn't play 10men but i think the num of the adds in 25men will be x2 10men so i think its the same

and that's where the problem is, it's same amount of adds.

[Deja Thoris]

Its interesting how despite 25s have 2.5x as many people the disease only did 1.5x as much damage on 25 man. Its almost like its harder on 10 man.

Poisons are only getting out on 25man if ppl miss interupts too, 16 ppl to interupt adds in 25 man vs 5 in 10man. So 25 man have 3 times the ppl to interupt. I agree, 25 man looks easier, but meh.

[Neliah]

Compared to how the first boss was a glorified trash mob in dificulty I would say it ramped up rather quickly.

Yeah the first boss got killed really fast for my team aswell, but on the second one we're really having issues keeping people alive. Not only with all the AoE/Spike damage , , the sandtraps made it even harder to get near the people that needed (A LOT) of dispells and heals. Miss one dispell if the person was too far away and it would tick completely out of control and people would just start to die. I usually don't complain about boss mechanics, but this boss it quite retarded considering him being the 2'nd boss on normal difficulty :/
We run with 3 healers on the fight, Holy priest, Druid and A paladin (10m). Symbiosis goes on the paladin, and none of us seem to be able to keep up with so many dispells. They're literally impossible to heal though since they stack and hurt even when you only have 1 stack, not to mention the 30 second duration of it.

We're having another go again tomorrow, hopefully some of the suggestions in this thread can help us out.

[Dinine]

This was probably mentioned somewhere in the 28 page thread, but I didn't read it all.

The four doors are very straightforward.
-Dispel debuffs
-Don't stand in stupid
-Kill adds according to priority

DPS Priority should be as follows:
-Dinomancer when it spawns, interrupt as well
-Adds that only spawn 3 per door, refered to below as Elite
-Adds that spawn consistently
-Horridon

Have 1 assigned person to use the orb. Only use the orb when the 3 Elite adds are dead, or very close to dead. On the move to the next door, clean up the remaining adds and try to get some DPS time on Horridon if possible.

Once all 4 doors have been destroyed, move Horridon to the middle of the room, stack on his side, and begin to DPS. When Jalak spawns, tank and kill him asap. Switch back to Horridon, and Bloodlust. Once he enrages, it is not a wipe. We hit enrage with about 25% health left on him. Simply adopt the Heroic Chimaeron strategy, and spread out. Those with highest aggro run to the far side of the room, and drop threat (if possible) before he gets there, or die. Salv the melee DPS. Because of his double strike, there is a lot of time when he's not DPSing anything at all (he just one-shots), and there is no damage at all going out, healers can also DPS.

Hope that helps.

[Deleted]

I love people who are like meh wasnt hard.... Your also in 510 ilvl... in a guild thats 10+ heroic t14 progresson... This fight is very much so overtuned for 10 man....

Just report those posts then, they are begging for infractions.

[Deleted]

and that's where the problem is, it's same amount of adds.

this is absolutely true, its the same amount of adds, thats what makes the 10m version so much harder than the 25m version but i would say that it is absolutely doable its just so much harder than it needs to be. its simple math really, 4-6 adds pr 16-17 dpsers and 4-6 adds vs 5-6 dpsers so the 10m version is just plain harder, the reason the 25m version much easier is the fact that there are about 3 times the dpsers that needs to do 2,5 times the hp of a standard 10m, so the fight ends up being in favor of the 25m fights, what they needed to do in order to make the fight equal in terms difficulty isnt to just reduce their hp by 60% but to also reduce the amount of adds that spawn, it should make them equal in difficulty.

[Typhoneus]

Loving this thread, the tips really helped me leading my raid! We are a 10-man guild and a little undergeared (we started T14 only a month and a half ago)

We are struggling at the second door/tribe (poison fellows). Like some in here, it's not that we *can't* do it, it's that it's beating us down so so much, that we struggle at the third door. Thanks so much for the tips about interrupts and other tips and please keep them coming! Loving this

We struggle a bit with dispels on the Poison because we healed with 3 Priests (don't ask, it generally works haha)

Keep the help coming and good luck to all on this!

[ceejay]

We wiped on this fight for a night and a half (about 35 attempts) before we finally killed him. Our average ilvl for our raid is about 490. We have the dps mark their priests as they came out for interrupts. Doing this really minimized our poison stacks. We also struggled with the third door. We ended up lusting on the first Warlord to get it down quick. We had our ranged focus on the small adds to try and control the disease a little bit while our melee dps worked on the remaining two warlords. It is also important to control where the frost orbs are dropped as much as possible. As the prot warrior I was focusing more on staying alive rather than where I was dropping the frost orbs, but it really helped our overall damage taken once I focused more on where to drop the frost orbs. If you can get through the third door it is relatively easy from their. Our raid comp:

Prot Warrior
Blood DK
Resto Shaman
Mistweaver
Holy Pally
Rogue
Shadow Priest
Hunter
Mage
Warlock