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  1. #181
    now sure how you can compare content from vanilla/bc to current content and say "back then, that content would have been faceroll". yes, now with all of these new spells, new classes, different itemizations and a megaton of things that are different. but if you played back then, you'd understand why things were so difficult. personally I don't think content back then with how the game was, was any more difficult or easy than the current content now.

    but that being said, I'm pretty sure you can find something to complain about for all the raids in any expansion. this expansion has had the most amazing scenery and buildings and art i've ever seen. of course, that doesn't mean the person who enjoys evil looking shit with demons every where means that an asian themed expansion sucks. seriously, personal preference. a change of scenery is nice, and it's not like the entire expansion is nothing but asian themed.

  2. #182
    Quote Originally Posted by suicidebears View Post
    thats not true at all... its all relative to the tuning/damage.

    if you cant admit they have 10 or so mechanics written on a piece of paper and pull 6-8 out of a hat and that makes the encounter then you have a problem with perception.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-08 at 12:59 AM ----------

    kiting zombies so a giant abominable dog doesnt chomp them for health sounds a lot more fun than anything this tier has to offer.
    And if Blizzard had done Naxx 3.0 you would be first in line to bitch about rehashes. Honestly this just seems like complaining for the sake of complaining.

  3. #183
    Dreadlord Noah37's Avatar
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    Why would anyone miss ICC? Sorry I know that isn't the point buy saw someone post that. I enjoyed Naxx, Ulduar, ToC, and ICC. WotLK was when I seriously raided, and then I hated Cata so I dropped off. I thought they had some decent mechanics on most fights, and the fights were based around the mechanics. If everyone knew what to do, and did it right, things where easy. But it wasn't just massive heal through damage, huge AoE damage, or anything else. It was just know the mechanics fights.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moon Blade View Post
    There's nothing for casuals to do, beyond pretend they are raiders in LFR.

  4. #184
    Quote Originally Posted by suicidebears View Post
    if the raids continue the way they are now, and LFR continues... i guarantee the fanboys will be the only ones left dodging a screen of super complex orbs and void zones and absurdly over complex mechanics for no reason.

    mists is a horrible expansion, bad for the game, and the raids are designed with the wrong players in mind.

    why are 25 mans dying? people dont feel like learning 10 ridiculous mechanics for 12 NEW bosses... theyd rather have fun in LFR and get the SAME gear for almost no effort...

    or blizz can remove LFR and start catering fights with FUN to the general player base in mind, and save those absurd mechanics for the heroics/hard modes
    And you just invalidated any remaining credibility you had by using the word fanboy. Let's be honest here it doesn't matter what Blizzard had done in this tier you would find fault with it because you want something to complain about and god forbid anyone disagree with you because that just has to mean they are fanboys.

  5. #185
    Quote Originally Posted by Noahsmith37 View Post
    Why would anyone miss ICC? Sorry I know that isn't the point buy saw someone post that. I enjoyed Naxx, Ulduar, ToC, and ICC. WotLK was when I seriously raided, and then I hated Cata so I dropped off. I thought they had some decent mechanics on most fights, and the fights were based around the mechanics. If everyone knew what to do, and did it right, things where easy. But it wasn't just massive heal through damage, huge AoE damage, or anything else. It was just know the mechanics fights.
    Apparently liking anything or having an opinion different from someone isn't allowed on the internet. They feel the need to be "right" and the only one. Pitiable, really; I just hope they know better than to act like that in real life.

  6. #186
    Quote Originally Posted by JhanZ View Post
    It shocks me that there's so much support for this expansion when considering everything, it's quite subpar.
    Different people have different opinions. Not everyone feels the need to spout the hate brigade's party line at any and all opportunities.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-08 at 11:55 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Cren View Post
    It also shocks me that some people have such a hard time understanding that people like different things. Just because YOU think its subpar doesn't mean everyone else does.
    Nor does it mean the expansion is objectively subpar. Opinion =/= reality.

  7. #187
    I don't think it so much that encounters are too complex, but the fact that effects of player and enemy spells have been getting flashier and flashier over the years. This can result to even relatively simple fight looking like huge cluster fuck, especially if there are a lot of adds and aoe involved.

  8. #188
    I don't know about all that but the raid mechanics do seem a little complex.

  9. #189
    Quote Originally Posted by Paulosio View Post
    Yep and then you'd get bored after a couple of months of doing bosses you farmed for 6 months already.
    I'm not sure why players are under the assumption that games are meant to be played forever and always. It really is ok to get bored and move on until something new comes along.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-09 at 12:11 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by bufferunderrun View Post
    rose tinted glass and nostalgia make every past raid look the pinnacle of blizzard work.
    I'm just waiting for someone to start crying that raids need to be more like DS. Mark my words it WILL happen.

  10. #190
    Mechagnome Ragu4's Avatar
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    I honestly liked the simpler and fewer mechanics. I'll be the first to admit i'm no star player, but I can clear the content, assuming my group are average players too. I just find it more fun doing basic fights. Don't get me wrong I like a good challenge, and I love unique mechanics when applied correctly, but particle effect fights just feel stressful. I'd say my favorite raid is, sadly to most people, ToC. No trash, decent fights, and my only server first heroic boss kill, killed the beasts first, was super satisfying but took about 9 hours of solid grinding. I dunno, WOTLK was my favorite xpac, mainly cause all my friends still played. Another thing, is it bad I enjoyed Naxx 10/25? I play games for the social aspect, and that was my most enjoyable experience in raiding just because I enjoyed the people I was around.

  11. #191
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryttge View Post
    I stopped raiding during ICC, but before that I've seen next to all but old school naxxramas.

    2-3 mechanics are simply put boring.

    I still think of LK25HC as the best fight i have raided. It was many new mechanics it was interesting, it was relentless and it was unforgiving. Many things one needed to watch out for and everyone died of one of twenty five did a single mistake during a 15minute period.

    It wasn't hard mathematically, it was hard because the mechanics where so unforgiving.

    To simply tank and spank bosses was never very fun. (think patchwerk) But in the end the boss needs to be defeated and 3 roles must be filled. So within these walls the numbers of mechanics available are simply depleted. There aren't many new mechanics that can be added that we never have seen before. So instead of just make an encounter that people have seen before they add more mechanics, combining mechanics to make the fight harder and feel "fresh".

    TL;DR The number of different mechanics are depleted, they started combining mechanics to make new fights seem interesting. The game is old, you're tired of the game.
    Just wanting to say, it was actually mathematically proven that you would near PERFECT execution and dps to get it down, that is why nobody got it till the 5% raid buff went out.

  12. #192
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    This all confirms for me my feeling (and, I freely admit, hope) that normal mode raid participation will decline significantly in T15. Blizzard is delivering a raiding product that frustrates and repels many people. The complexity makes bringing in new people difficult.

    If you don't like this design, I'll not only say don't do it, I'll beg you to not do it. Use your participation or lack thereof to send Blizzard a message.
    And yet on the official forums I'm seeing absolutely zero complaints on tier 15 normal modes. None. Zip. Zilch. Nada. Aside from you spamming your anti-raider nonsense both there and here, reception of tier 15 has been overwhelmingly positive. I know you can't comprehend this but just because you don't like raiding doesn't make it bad for the game nor does it mean it is dying out.

  13. #193
    Quote Originally Posted by xanzul View Post
    And yet on the official forums I'm seeing absolutely zero complaints on tier 15 normal modes. None. Zip. Zilch. Nada. Aside from you spamming your anti-raider nonsense both there and here, reception of tier 15 has been overwhelmingly positive. I know you can't comprehend this but just because you don't like raiding doesn't make it bad for the game nor does it mean it is dying out.
    He won't budge on his position, which is respectable but there's a fine line. He has evidence but, you're right: there has been zero complaints as to Tier 15.

    Some people sometimes just have to accept the fact that the raiding market may simply just be waning.

    It's not Blizzard's fault in the slightest.

    But, hey, that's just my opinion. I'll be attacked and criticized for it like anyone else.
    Quote Originally Posted by Princess Kenny View Post
    Avocado is a tropical fruit , south seas expansion confirmed.

  14. #194
    Quote Originally Posted by Leonard McCoy View Post
    I don't want to be that guy but if this were the truth then you could probably avoid threads where it's clear some complaints are going to be happening. In truth I don't think your tired one bit but yea just a heads up.
    I'm tired of this whole "complaining about complainers" nonsense. It is a valid complaint that these forums are filled with overly negative whiny threads and posts when it detracts from the things people are interested in discussing. It is easy to say "ignore it" but not so easy to do when every thread is full of it.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-09 at 01:29 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Pebrocks The Warlock View Post
    So I can't express my opinion on his opinion without being called a hypocrite? Get over yourself.
    It is funny how these very negative posters constantly spout "i have a right to my opinion" but are usually the first to shut down anyone who dares state something contrary to what they believe.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-09 at 01:33 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by suicidebears View Post
    i think a huge problem is the lore in this expansion. who seriously cares of pandaria? i didnt think for a single nanosecond about it before the expansion released...

    what about the characters everyone cares about? saurfang? rexxar? the old gods? the titans? burning legion... sargeras? bolvar?... any of the alliance lore characters...? out of all of that we get the thunder king? which noone has ever heard of or cares about? and sha?
    Nothing is going to kill this game faster than wallowing around in WCIII lore endlessly. It is time to move on already.

  15. #195
    Quote Originally Posted by xanzul View Post
    Nothing is going to kill this game faster than wallowing around in WCIII lore endlessly. It is time to move on already.
    That's just like, your opinion, man.

    Yes, time to move on with the old characters (the ones that still live anyway). Ergo reveal their whereabouts, intentions, alignments, and so on. Story has been a boring corruption bullshit for some time now (and that's my opinion).

  16. #196
    Man guys this Return of Sargaras expansion sucks. remember how well made the MoP raids were a few expansions back before they changed stuff and screwed everything up. Classes are way too unique now, before when they had similarities it created a bond between players and you could more easily adapt when having multiple chars rather having having to play something absolutely different when you relog to a different toon.

    /backfromthefuture

    that isnt opinion. A story in literature of any type HAS to move forward. It CANNOT wallow within the limitations of its own past pieces. Pandaria is (from the hordes pov) unclaimed Azerothian land wit hvast resources and power. The very reason we're there is because the ENEMY is there too and we dont want them to have anything they want or not have something that they dont want us to have.

    Thats the whole reason we're there. A newly discovered land with massive material resources (an entire continent of ores, food, lumber, material etc etc etc) , human resources (recruiting the pandaren willfully or not) and power (artifacts, etc). Stuff you DONT want the enemy free access to.

    Thats why in our own past during colonial times all the competing nations went CRAZY finding and staking claims to new lands whether they were useful or not to them. Carving a land and even entire new continents between themselves through blood and politics.

    Otherwise through your reasoning why bother with the entire north and south Americas where all of europe carved out variosu pieces for themselves. Or australia and africa and india etc etc. You just dont ignore an entire new continent and let your competition have free roam so they can become exponentially more lethal both in martial and economic power.
    Last edited by Tenjen; 2013-03-09 at 10:49 AM.

  17. #197
    Quote Originally Posted by xanzul View Post
    Anyone else tired of people constantly complaining about EVERYTHING Blizzard does?
    Good thing he didn't do that, isn't it?

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-09 at 11:37 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by xanzul View Post
    And yet on the official forums I'm seeing absolutely zero complaints on tier 15 normal modes. None. Zip. Zilch. Nada.
    Why do you lie, Xanzul? I'm seeing threads on the official forums where people I was arguing with earlier about tuning are complaining about T15 (specifically, the second boss). It's hilarious. Like I told them: I guess the foot's on the other hand now, isn't it, Kramer?


    ---------- Post added 2013-03-09 at 11:41 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Destil View Post
    He won't budge on his position, which is respectable but there's a fine line. He has evidence but, you're right: there has been zero complaints as to Tier 15.
    No. Go look at the DR&S forum. Notice the Horridon threads? Also, there are complaints about bridge trash. Heck, someone put up a thread with the title "Why all these nerf posts?"

    Also, I'm expecting many people who failed to make much progress in T14 to give up entirely. The stats so far sure don't show them killing the first boss in T15. Absence of their complaints could not be taken as evidence of anything except that they weren't posting.
    Last edited by Osmeric; 2013-03-09 at 11:56 AM.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "The bit about hardcore players not always caring about the long term interests of the game is spot on." -- Ghostcrawler
    "Do you want a game with no casuals so about 500 players?"

  18. #198
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post

    Also, I'm expecting many people who failed to make much progress in T14 to give up entirely. The stats so far sure don't show them killing the first boss in T15. Absence of their complaints could not be taken as evidence of anything except that they weren't posting.
    Yuup. It's don't think it's clear how many people that is exactly is but trying to move back to tiered progression will probably just move people away from raiding. This isn't 2008 or 2007. Lots of other options. In warcraft and outside of warcraft as well.
    Last edited by Leonard McCoy; 2013-03-09 at 12:00 PM.

  19. #199
    Quote Originally Posted by yjmark View Post
    imho - MoP has some of the best raid designs. Definitely better than most TBC encoutners. Looking back at TBC encounters, those are some of the most boring fights. They were only fun because people were new to raiding.

    The issues a lot of people are seeing is that they are getting bored of raiding. Overall, raids are the same basic holy trinity vs boss. Not much in raiding has really changed, and after doing it for 8+ years, it's not very exciting for a lot of people.

    That's my subjective opinion anyway
    hmm agree with this partly, but I really liked the end boses of BC and I did raid sunwell, we downed the second boss, Brutallus the last night before the next expansion, and loved it really. Cheers at PlundaKlub!

    The raid design now is awsome in my opinion since everytime we now try to kill a new boss all of the raiders have to pay attention more and it is more rewarding.

  20. #200
    There's something satisfying about the correlation i've been seeing between coordination and downing bosses. I feel like the MoP raid design rewards raiders who know and perform their roles well.

    Our 10 man guild is only 4/12 in T15 so far, but i've noticed that our guild's avg ilevel (496 last I checked) is lower than most progression guilds on our server...some of which are actually behind us in progress. We can't just go in and power through boss mechanics like some heroic guilds, but we've become pretty well coordinated to make up for the lesser gear.

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