should 10 man raids have 1 extra piece of loot?

[superficial]

This! I have made this suggestion in guild chat before. We don't need necessarily more loot, just a wider loot range. Let 3 items drop, and make it so you can only loot 2 of them for 10 man; 6 items drop for 25 man, let them only loot 5.

This would cut down on the RNG without distributing more loot to any one group.

Nah, if it's that way we should get 9 drops and pick 6.

[Korru]

non-tier boss:

10: 3 pieces of loot
25: 7 pieces of loot

tier boss

10: 2 pieces of loot 2 tokens
25: 5 pieces of loot 4 tokens

[Deleted]

non-tier boss:

10: 3 pieces of loot
25: 7 pieces of loot

tier boss

10: 2 pieces of loot 2 tokens
25: 5 pieces of loot 4 tokens

That seems like a very unfair distribution of loot to be honest. Why should 25's get punished because they play a raid that is logistically harder to manage and harder fights?

That system could potentionally make mid-end 25 guilds to opt into running three or four 10 man runs with alts for gearing up.

Why run one 25 and get 7 loot drops when you can just run three tens a lot easier and get 9.
Why run one 25 and get 5 loot drops + 4 tokens when you can get 6 drops and 6 tokens from running three tens?

If you want 3 drops or 2+2 in tens then you need to have atleast 9 and 6+6 in 25's.

And yes, on the topic, I raid 10 and I see to no problem with the loot system at all.

[Jibjabb]

The blank token and redeemed for items that the boss has access to, is one of the best ideas so far, and would be a verry good solution for 10 man problems right now.

Eliminating all RNG from raids is probably one of the worst ideas so far. Not only would loot be overwhelmingly annoy to deal with, since EVERYBODY wants that item, it also makes the gearing process too easy to the point where people start overgearing content soon getting the biggest upgrades immediately on the first kills, when in reality that rarely ever happens and helps prolong the process of needing to raid for gear

[Definition]

Absolutely not, it would bring more people to 10 man. To continue 25s we need more people running it, not less.

[Ichifails]

Look,
10 man raids already get it easier in the logistics side of the game, no one can deny this. The idea behind 25s getting more loot is to help offset that.

Increasing 10 man loot without doing the exact same for 25 man would cause a HUGE amount of QQ from the 25 man community as they would rightly feel that 10 mans are being favored again. I am all for making loot distribution more fair and a lot less RNG based, But there is no way they should alter it so you have the possibility to deck out ⅓ of your 10 man raid without doing the exact same for the 25 man teams.

3 Pieces of loot for 10 mans - Fine, but you would need to upgrade the loot on 25 mans to the same ratio which is 8 pieces (rounded down) of loot.
If the 10 man community can not agree that this is fair then it goes along way to show that they consider themselves more superior to the 25 man community, and Vice Versa.

I really don't get this broken mentality that 25 are harder in terms of anything... In 10-mans if you are missing a class, you have a high chance of not being able to kill a boss. (for example on Megaera a holy paladin pulls as much healing as 2 resto shamans, a rogue can soak almost every spark on Emperor, good luck at Garalon with no cleave classes, etc.) In 25 mans you don't get that... you also have more people that can use a piece of loot. We had no loot for 5 weeks because the game decided to only drop healing plate and agility leather gear that we couldn't use even for off-specs.
I've done 25 mans and the only hard thing about it is to get the people together. If one guy dies you can still save the fight. If a guy dies on 10.. it's dead.

I know wowprogress isn't something to base an argument on but just look at the clear percentages:
25 man: 9.80% cleared 11 bosses
10 man: 8.85% cleared 5 bosses

10 mans feel that they require too much of a strict set-up when you get the same benefit in both 10 and 25 mans from a class/spec(IE: 1 single hand of purity at Megaera can/will make a difference between a lot of wipes and an easy kill). When you aren't able to gear your people due to the game refusing to give you the items you need, you fall behind in an endless vortex.

[DechCJC]

Look,
10 man raids already get it easier in the logistics side of the game, no one can deny this. The idea behind 25s getting more loot is to help offset that.

Increasing 10 man loot without doing the exact same for 25 man would cause a HUGE amount of QQ from the 25 man community as they would rightly feel that 10 mans are being favored again. I am all for making loot distribution more fair and a lot less RNG based, But there is no way they should alter it so you have the possibility to deck out ⅓ of your 10 man raid without doing the exact same for the 25 man teams.

3 Pieces of loot for 10 mans - Fine, but you would need to upgrade the loot on 25 mans to the same ratio which is 8 pieces (rounded down) of loot.
If the 10 man community can not agree that this is fair then it goes along way to show that they consider themselves more superior to the 25 man community, and Vice Versa.

Because top guilds running 25 mans to gear their 10 main characters, then running 10 man while everyone has their 4 set is totally fair.

I agree with you that the logistics are more difficult for a 25 man group, but for this tier at least - Even just looking at the change of success rates between 10 and 25 man on the earlier bosses, you can blatantly see that logistics, at the moment, is the only thing that makes 25 man more difficult. Any fight with interrupts, CC, big healing phases are immensely easier on 25 man, purely because, despite the extra co-ordination you need to pull it off - You have MUCH more potential.

It's why I feel like 25 man raiding is the real raiding, you have much more options and your setup rarely hinders you as much as a 10 man's setup; Honestly I feel like 10 mans should be rewarded for having to put up with the crap raiding environment that we do, the only people in 25 mans that actually have a hard time are the raid leaders.

[Jibjabb]

I really don't get this broken mentality that 25 are harder in terms of anything... In 10-mans if you are missing a class, you have a high chance of not being able to kill a boss. (for example on Megaera a holy paladin pulls as much healing as 2 resto shamans, a rogue can soak almost every spark on Emperor, good luck at Garalon with no cleave classes, etc.) In 25 mans you don't get that... you also have more people that can use a piece of loot. We had no loot for 5 weeks because the game decided to only drop healing plate and agility leather gear that we couldn't use even for off-specs.
I've done 25 mans and the only hard thing about it is to get the people together. If one guy dies you can still save the fight. If a guy dies on 10.. it's dead.

10 mans feel that they require too much of a strict set-up when you get the same benefit in both 10 and 25 mans from a class/spec(IE: 1 single hand of purity at Megaera can/will make a difference between a lot of wipes and an easy kill). When you aren't able to gear your people due to the game refusing to give you the items you need, you fall behind in an endless vortex.

We just did the last 4 bosses on 10m since our 25 raid was over and we wanted to finish off the instance. Dark Animus on 10 is such a god damn joke, you can practically filter him anima at the start and zerg right away and have it be a kill. The fight lasted a grand 2 minutes or so. This idea that once somebody dies on 10m its now over is also completely wrong information. For starters its easier to keep 10 people alive than it is 25, having 25 people work a mechanic correctly is far less likely, and even if someone dies on the fight in 10m it can still be recovered. In fact on our Twins and Lei Shen kills we had someone die and still managed to beat the encounter in time.

I cant say whether the final 3 were easier on 10m since obviously havent done on 25m yet. But Dark Animus sure as shit was and even with deaths we managed to kill the bosses. Our raid wasnt exactly stacked for composition either 3 druids 2 paladins 2 hunters, a lock, a priest, a DK. Bring solid enough players and its really no different than 25s as long as you arent using some ridiculous comp.

[Ichifails]

We just did the last 4 bosses on 10m since our 25 raid was over and we wanted to finish off the instance. Dark Animus on 10 is such a god damn joke, you can practically filter him anima at the start and zerg right away and have it be a kill. The fight lasted a grand 2 minutes or so. This idea that once somebody dies on 10m its now over is also completely wrong information. For starters its easier to keep 10 people alive than it is 25, having 25 people work a mechanic correctly is far less likely, and even if someone dies on the fight in 10m it can still be recovered. In fact on our Twins and Lei Shen kills we had someone die and still managed to beat the encounter in time.

I cant say whether the final 3 were easier on 10m since obviously havent done on 25m yet. But Dark Animus sure as shit was and even with deaths we managed to kill the bosses. Our raid wasnt exactly stacked for composition either 3 druids 2 paladins 2 hunters, a lock, a priest, a DK. Bring solid enough players and its really no different than 25s as long as you arent using some ridiculous comp.

You had the benefit of having 25-man gear and also having some classes that make 10 man fights a joke.
We currently have:
Prot pala + Blood DK (+prot warrior decent off-spec)
Disc/MW Monk/Resto Shaman (+another resto off-spec)
Fury Warrior - Enh Shaman - Frost DK
Mage - Warlock - SP - Hunter

We are currently stuck at Megaera because well... it's stupidly tuned. You can see that the drop from Council to Megaera(15.58% to 8.83%) is almost as the drop from Megaera to Dark Animus or even Iron (8.83% to 4.27% or 3.42%) and that only means that there's a problem right there, at the middle of the tier for 10-man.
We have a bad-ish set-up for that fight no matter how you put it. We are sort of forced to make our monk re-roll paladin and our fury warrior go rogue.
That will fix the gear and the progress by a huge amount but it is as far away from "bring the player not the class" as you can get.

[kilj]

, they do tend to progress at a similar rate. As for loot ratios, they're slightly skewed to compensate for the additional challenges faced by 25m groups.

That's funny.... Last time I checked 25's have progressed further in tot than 10's.

[Deleted]

I really don't get this broken mentality that 25 are harder in terms of anything.

im guessing you have never been in a position of leadership within a guild trying to maintain a 25 man roster. It may seem like "There is just more people to find" and to some degree you are right. but you also need to find 25 people who are not only able to play their class, but bother to turn up to raids. Then you have to deal with recruitment to fill positions and ensure that they are upto date on tactics that the guild uses (not every guild uses the same tactic) Then you have to deal with the inevitible personality clashes, people taking breaks and everything else that gets in the way of the smooth running of a raid.

I never said that 10 man raid bosses where easier, before taking a short break from the guild and Being and officer / CL / GM of a guild that has Ping-Ponged between 25 and 10 mans trying to keep a stable 25 man I know for a fact that some bosses are better tuned for each size. What I said is that the Logisitcis of running a 25 man guild is much harder than running a 10 man guild. This has been acknowledged multiple times

Ever since we changed 10-player raids to drop the same item level as 25s, we’ve seen a steady decline in 25-player raiding. This isn’t surprising. A 25-player raid takes an extra level of logistical commitment for the officers of those groups.

Therefore it stands to reason that if you increase the loot drops for 10 man, you have to increase by the same % to 25 man to ensure that the current "incentive" to the organizers of 25 mans stays applicable.

[AeneasBK]

If he boss drops a token to "hand in" for an item off thier loot table then 10 man should get 1 per kill, 25 should get 3.

Thats 160 boss kills to FULLY gear out your 10 man raid (or less depending on how many people use 2 handed weapons (about 3 months of clearing, 5 months of progression, about the length of a patch).

And 134 boss kills for 25 man. Roughly 2 weeks quicker than 10 man.

Bosses already drop too much loot anyway

[Deleted]

If that were the case, then 25 man should also get an extra piece of loot. Then if we done that, people like you would then ask for 10 mans to drop 4 pieces of loot, until eventually killing a boss rewards you with every item usable for your class when you kill it.

[Saphyron]

Therefore it stands to reason that if you increase the loot drops for 10 man, you have to increase by the same % to 25 man to ensure that the current "incentive" to the organizers of 25 mans stays applicable.

Bonus from doing 25man compared to 10man
a) Get more gear per player. 10 man 20% 25 man 24%
b) Insanely higher drop chance on TF. 10 man 10% 25 man 25%
c) Easier getting the class needed on that fight. Horridon comes to mind with all the things that need to be dispelled or megara with holy paladin stacking.
d) Much bigger chance that the drops go to someone's mainspec. OFC both raid groups can be unlucky and some members even more so but does not change the fact you have a much higher chance of not Disenchanting the stuff you get.

Also no matter how you put it. Its not the raiders of a 25 man team that should get rewarded for the extra work its the goddamn raid leaders that should.

Personally I would not recommend more loot per boss and to a degree i don't care that 25 man gets rewarded with extra stuff for doing nothing.
I would prefer they just made 1 Raid size. 15 man comes to mind as a good one. It is a good compromise. Then there will be no more bullshit about the raid sizes.

This is my ideal wow.

15 man Raid size.
4 pieces of loot drops of each boss 5 on tier bosses. Where 2 of them are guaranteed tokens.
20% drop chance on TF so on average 1 per boss. replace TF with master-worked for other raids.
Each x.0 - x.2 - x.4 - x.6 comes out a raid.
Each x.1 - x.3 - x.5 comes out new optional stuff
Each Expansion should have 1-2 week long pre-event that is like the past. GOD REMOVE MIST PRE-EVENT it was horrible.

I can't see any flaws in this idea. and people will whine for the first couple of weeks like they always does with new stuff. But most likely accept it in the end.

[Socialhealer]

Sure, I dont mind if 10 mans get an extra piece of loot. But you also have to increase the amount that 25 mans get at the same time to the same ratio.

yeh if 10man gets 3, 25man needs 8 minimum, remember we're rewarded for extra effort in keeping a 25man running, not to put people off of 10mans.

and as others have said, the coin allows you more loot chance, really your chance in 10man to get the loot you need has never been better.

[kilj]

im guessing you have never been in a position of leadership within a guild trying to maintain a 25 man roster. It may seem like "There is just more people to find" and to some degree you are right. but you also need to find 25 people who are not only able to play their class, but bother to turn up to raids. Then you have to deal with recruitment to fill positions and ensure that they are upto date on tactics that the guild uses (not every guild uses the same tactic) Then you have to deal with the inevitible personality clashes, people taking breaks and everything else that gets in the way of the smooth running of a raid.

I never said that 10 man raid bosses where easier, before taking a short break from the guild and Being and officer / CL / GM of a guild that has Ping-Ponged between 25 and 10 mans trying to keep a stable 25 man I know for a fact that some bosses are better tuned for each size. What I said is that the Logisitcis of running a 25 man guild is much harder than running a 10 man guild. This has been acknowledged multiple times

Ever since we changed 10-player raids to drop the same item level as 25s, we’ve seen a steady decline in 25-player raiding. This isn’t surprising. A 25-player raid takes an extra level of logistical commitment for the officers of those groups.

Therefore it stands to reason that if you increase the loot drops for 10 man, you have to increase by the same % to 25 man to ensure that the current "incentive" to the organizers of 25 mans stays applicable.

Considering I've been raiding since vanilla and have had the fun tasks of maintaining a 40 man roster, when they dropped it down to 25 it was a blessing. It gave the perfect excuse to not carry the 15 bads that you had to deal with everynight and kept them around to just full a spot. You can argue 25's are harder to maintain but in the long run they really aren't if you know what your doing and have good management skills. I ran 25s since they became 25's only just recently went to 10's for t15 because of wanting to raid with only friends.


In the end of the day tho 25's give more room for error than 10's more bres's an more dispellers.

[Socialhealer]

That's funny.... Last time I checked 25's have progressed further in tot than 10's.

25mans are generally more hardcore than the 10mans, and mostly the hardcore players who have been doing 40man/25man since wow came out, paragon have showed a really hardcore dedicated 10man can beat 25 man guilds.

[Deleted]

I know wowprogress isn't something to base an argument on but just look at the clear percentages:
25 man: 9.80% cleared 11 bosses
10 man: 8.85% cleared 5 bosses

That is just nothing to base an argument on because there are houndreds if not thousands of more casual 10 man guilds than 25 man guilds. If someone is raiding 25 mans, its a 98% chance that they are probably raiding seriously, not just a bunch of irls trolling around.

Most of the people that have both 25 and 10 generally agrees that 25 was significantly harder.
It is not a broken mentality, it is a fact. I am now raiding 10 man because I do not feel like I want to commit to the game as much as before. I like it casual now so I play 10. Though I am not that blind to see that I am in the easier difficulty, I accept that, it is my choice.

10 man just require so much less from me as an individual player than 25 ever required.

10 man requiring strict setup, nah. Though with the correct setup the boss becomes a joke. 10 man with the wrong setup is kinda like 25 with the correct setup.

[Deleted]

25mans are generally more hardcore than the 10mans, and mostly the hardcore players who have been doing 40man/25man since wow came out, paragon have showed a really hardcore dedicated 10man can beat 25 man guilds.

This. I'm tired of hearing people using that the stupid argument that if 10 man were easier why aren't there more 10 man guilds competing for world first. Most of the real hardcore players are playing 25 man.

Before 4.0 all hardcore guilds were 25 man. I prefered that concept way better. You weren't saved in 10 man if you went 25 man but you got worse loot in 10 man. If you wanna play 10 man, that's fine. Why does everyone need to be entitled to the best gear all the time?

[Deleted]

Go 25 man then, if you think 10 man is hard to manage. Go ahead.