Unannounced feature for 5.4 - please be LFR for old content/raids

[Firebert]

Did you play before LFR and LFG? There were most definitely raids before LFR. So the idea that without LFR there is no raids is ridiculous.

I guess you missed the news on the front page of MMO champion when Firelands had between a 2% and 16% exposure rate, forcing Blizzard to rush LFR in to make raids more economically viable again.

A lot changed since WotLK. There's still less and less players running Normal. Most of the exposure of their raids is through LFR. If LFR gets axed, then there's no point in making raids any more as no-one will see it.

Don't cut your nose off to spite your face.

[kingriku]

I guess you missed the news on the front page of MMO champion when Firelands had between a 2% and 16% exposure rate, forcing Blizzard to rush LFR in to make raids more economically viable again.

A lot changed since WotLK. There's still less and less players running Normal. Most of the exposure of their raids is through LFR. If LFR gets axed, then there's no point in making raids any more as no-one will see it.

Don't cut your nose off to spite your face.

I played since vanilla and came back in wrath and been addicted, raiding has flourished now more than ever no matter what anyone says and you're right FL was a huge downpoint of raiding due to how massive and tough it was to get going in there.

[Firebert]

I am thinking valor point rewards, special mounts, transmog gear sets, new pets added to post vanilla raids, maybe whatever the latest version of the loot coin is, everything in fact except scalable loot from old instances is surely on the cards as incentives to run it.

The only thing the majority of players would run it for would be the VP and the loot coins, then. The rest do not progress your character.

I'm guessing that some LFRs will come back, but in order. During the Siege on Orgrimmar raid, LFR Naxx gets released (with 5 wings). During the first raid set of the next expansion, LFR Ulduar gets released. The second set of the next expansion, LFR TotC gets released. And so on.

---------- Post added 2013-03-11 at 03:24 PM ----------

raiding has flourished now more than ever no matter what anyone says

I believe the numbers don't lie.

Less people have killed Normal Sha of Fear than had killed Normal Madness of Deathwing when it was current.

[kingriku]

The only thing the majority of players would run it for would be the VP and the loot coins, then. The rest do not progress your character.

I'm guessing that some LFRs will come back, but in order. During the Siege on Orgrimmar raid, LFR Naxx gets released (with 5 wings). During the first raid set of the next expansion, LFR Ulduar gets released. The second set of the next expansion, LFR TotC gets released. And so on.

---------- Post added 2013-03-11 at 03:24 PM ----------


I believe the numbers don't lie.

Less people have killed Normal Sha of Fear than had killed Normal Madness of Deathwing when it was current.

Yeah but go ahead and count in LFR, its still raiding even if a watered down verison. We have almost all pve players seeing the content, seeing the end game and not just doing dungeons for the millionth time to try and over gear into a pug for last tiers content.

Also i don't have a link to your numbers but madness was "Current" for a very long time.

[Monteverdi]

This would water down the LFR queue dramatically, and it's hard enough to get tanks/healers for MSV/HoF as it is. I don't think they'll implement old content in this way.

[Kilpi]

Maybe they are getting rid of LFR completely and the casuals will stop ruining this game with endless supplies of welfare epics.

The problem for me isn't the endless supplies of welfare epics, but the fact that LFR is replacing 5man heroics. I'd rather take 5man version of the same raid than doing it in LFR.

[Sesto]

As someone who likes running old content... please don't be a LFR for old content. Most of that stuff can be soloed, the rest of it is easy to find groups for already (this is coming from someone on a low pop server). I'm not saying it's a bad feature, but hyping it up like this for it to only be a LFR for old content would be horribly disappointing.

[Pull My Finger]

I think it's going to involve some kind of downscaling - they seem to have worked on that technology (think automatic bracket scaling in low lv BGs in 5.2). However, I'd rather prefer upscaling - meaning, not scaling player level down to the old content, but scaling the dungeons up to 90. It would make valor farming and PvE sooo much more fun and varied - especially considering how we only got a measly total of what, 6 new dungeons, this time around?

Won't happen though, as it would a require a lot more work, complete re-itemisation and some redesigning from scrach.

[kingriku]

I think it's going to involve some kind of downscaling - they seem to have worked on that technology (think automatic bracket scaling in low lv BGs in 5.2). However, I'd rather prefer upscaling - meaning, not scaling player level down to the old content, but scaling the dungeons up to 90. It would make valor farming and PvE sooo much more fun and varied - especially considering how we only got a measly total of what, 6 new dungeons, this time around?

Won't happen though, as it would a require a lot more work, complete re-itemisation and some redesigning from scrach.

Well i mean a simple downscale would be (idealy) easy and not take too much time so there wouldn't be a if we can make it. But a new upscale system which scales them to 90 and an item scale system which takes an item to lets say ilvl 522 (itll be old tier by 5.4) and takes the average item stats of 522 for that item type and stats can be changed with every cap could take some time.

[Azrile]

Makes absolutely no sense to have a LFR for old content that is already soloable.

I'd say the 'top feature' will be user created content in the form of scenarios.

Yeah, because there have already been like 5 hints that it involves ´old content´.. that fits in perfectly with your idea.....

---------- Post added 2013-03-11 at 04:19 PM ----------

Yes, please let it be lfr for stuff I can solo. That would add so much content to the game.

GC already said a lot of people would say ´what? that is it?'

Relax hero, not every feature added to the game needs to be for everyone. My guess is this is a very easy feature for them to add since it is just about the same as challenge modes and BG auto-leveling..

---------- Post added 2013-03-11 at 04:20 PM ----------

I think there will be crossfaction. Like you will be able to be Nelf as horde. Probably since it's the last patch of the expansion and we have killed Garrosh the number one racist of Azeroth.

And again.. 3 or 4 dev comments already said it would involve ´old content´..

---------- Post added 2013-03-11 at 04:21 PM ----------

I think there will be crossfaction. Like you will be able to be Nelf as horde. Probably since it's the last patch of the expansion and we have killed Garrosh the number one racist of Azeroth.

And again.. 3 or 4 dev comments already said it would involve ´old content´..

---------- Post added 2013-03-11 at 04:24 PM ----------

I would like that. Maybe not LFR for older raids, but the possibility of going there in level and gear apropriate.

Like, Black Temple at level 70, with ilvl scaled down to 110 (wild guess here).

I would second that idea!

that is what I am thinking. It would be more like Challenge modes for old raids rather than LFR. You would still have to form your own groups and travel to the portal. If they do it as an LFR.. then they are really going to have to scale us down at a much higher ilvl than the raids were intended to compensate for 25 strangers not knowing the mechanisms. I do NOT think they went in and made LFR versions of those dungeons, so basically they will be exactly like on live.

---------- Post added 2013-03-11 at 04:27 PM ----------

Maybe they are getting rid of LFR completely and the casuals will stop ruining this game with endless supplies of welfare epics.

The penis is small in this one....

---------- Post added 2013-03-11 at 04:30 PM ----------

Calling it now. LFR/LFD for Old content through the Challenge Mode Item Scaling tech. GC said some people would find it "meh, that's it?" and others would find it awesome, they've also said that it will involve something along the lines of old content (Tom Chilton interview yesterday).

So... 90% chance that is it. Now, what are the rewards from it? Anything more than VP? Who knows.

I agree completely. I think the only thing in debate is if they add a new category to LFR ´legacy raid´. I do not think they will. If they do that, they will have to change a ton of mechanisms from almost every boss to allow for the 25 strangers issues. I think it will be simply like challenge modes. form your own group and go to the portal.

Mod Edit: No need for the insulting comment.

[Eranthe]

if blizzard is smart, they will make new tech to create scalable mobs, kind of like how gear scales in challenge modes. in this way, when they make new content they can just slide the level up and the health and stats of the mob will be at the appropriate level. also, they can go back to all the dungeons they've ever made and apply it to them. this way, when you queue for a random heroic dungeon, instead of getting one of the 5-10 from mop, you can get one from any dungeon they've ever made. that alone will breathe some life back into the game, and it would take way longer to get tired of running heroics, when there's so many.

do this, and also add (a) unique item(s) to all these old dungeons, new mounts, flavor items, pets, transmog items, items like the pandaria rare mob items, etc. so there's tons of rewards for doing these dungeons.

also, they should change heroic difficulty to be more in line with tbc heroics when it took an hour or two to clear shadow labs with the average group. the current game is this smooth flowing train to farming valor that, while efficient, isn't very much fun. Who can honestly say they like running tons of heroics for gear they don't need, just for the sake of getting valor capped?

Maybe they could make a level 90 version for the purposes of gearing up/justice/valor points, and then a heroic mode for better rewards but much more difficult, and challenge mode for speed. or just combine heroic mode and challenge mode, add cool items but don't require a good time for them to drop, so you can go run the dungeons, go for speed, but if you wipe a couple times (or more) you can still get stuff out of it without having to keep restarting the dungeon. I think the fact that you get nothing from challenge modes unless you actually complete the dungeon with a good time kinda turns people off doing it.

[Deadite]

And again.. 3 or 4 dev comments already said it would involve ´old content´

I have to take my hat off to Blizzard. They are going come up with a way to re-hash old content and people are actually going to thank them for it. They should put the vast piles of cash they make from this game into new content.

[Azrile]

If LFR doesn't drop loot, or drops loot that doesn't progress your character, players won't run it.

That's the official line, I think.

But you are forgetting a couple things. First, this takes very little work since it is already being done for Challenge modes. Second, Challenge modes currently reward really nothing but transmog gear (ie same as doing a challenge mode raid). Finally, I think like Brawler´s guild.. people are thinking this has to be some huge addition to the game... it isn´t.. this is simply something they can do easily using tech they already have.. and... give players something new to mess around with. Remember, a TON of players ( 90%?) never got to do vanilla raids at appropriate gear and character level. The % is probably also very high for TBC raids.

---------- Post added 2013-03-11 at 04:37 PM ----------

Imagine if they let us to LFR for solo content that was tuned to level 90? That would be insane...

It won´t be this. They do not have the tech to scale raids up to our level automatically. And if they were doing it manually, then it would be meaningless because a few months after the patch, we will be starting a new expansion and going to 95, which means those manually redone dungeons will be a 90 and worthless. It makes much more sense to scale players down to the appropriate level and ilvl. Once they do it once, vanilla raids will always be there to do no matter what our current level is.

[Obelisk Kai]

"I'd say the 'top feature' will be user created content in the form of scenarios."

Not relevant to 5.4 (as has been mentioned the hints indicate 5.4 is some sort of downscaling system) but wow what a good idea.

We could even say player created content takes place in the Emerald Dream as you literally give your Dreams form with the entire world the play ground (and put the Dream in game).

Dream-Scenarios could be rated by players and you could choose one from a new UI, filtered maybe by zone or player rating or estimated duration.

I love it!

[Firebert]

Challenge modes currently reward really nothing but transmog gear (ie same as doing a challenge mode raid).

Hence the tiny percentage of the population running Challenge Modes.

Finally, I think like Brawler´s guild.. people are thinking this has to be some huge addition to the game... it isn´t.. this is simply something they can do easily using tech they already have.. and... give players something new to mess around with.

Something this hyped should be aimed at the majority of the playerbase, and the Brawler's Guild was most definitely aimed at the minority (either a long grind or at least 1kG on the Black Market AH in order to access).

[Azrile]

I believe it would a be a scale up not down, so Illidan becomes lvl 90 and so does the rest of the raid and drops 90 gear.

And where is that tech already in the game? it isn´t. This is Blizzard we are talking about.. they are going to re-use and beat the crap out of their new tech.. which was for challenge modes and BGs. They are going to scale US down to the appropriate level... the tech is already in the game. Plus, if they go through and scale every boss up to lvl 90... what happens 6 months after the patch when we get the new expansion and everyone is 95.. you think they are going to go back through and redo every raid to make it 95? It is much smarter if they use the current tech to level us down to 60 for MC.. that way it will ALWAYS be available without any work on their part.

[Marema]

Bosses and trash will scale to level 90. Gear will scale to current (at least what will be current at 5.4) LFR ilevel. It's not about getting LFR with 90's to go do 60 content. It's about doing LFR with 90's to do 60's+ content that is scaled to 90. I see all 40 man raids being scaled in LFR to 25 man.

[Obelisk Kai]

And where is that tech already in the game? it isn´t. This is Blizzard we are talking about.. they are going to re-use and beat the crap out of their new tech.. which was for challenge modes and BGs. They are going to scale US down to the appropriate level... the tech is already in the game. Plus, if they go through and scale every boss up to lvl 90... what happens 6 months after the patch when we get the new expansion and everyone is 95.. you think they are going to go back through and redo every raid to make it 95? It is much smarter if they use the current tech to level us down to 60 for MC.. that way it will ALWAYS be available without any work on their part.

Besides becoming a lower level will just FEEL better. I want this downscaling to work out in the open world as well, maybe allow me to do quests I have already completed that were fun just for the hell of it (Welcome to the Machine), and upscaling an entire area is simply impractical compared to scaling me down.

The lore for this is also already in place, those Time Warden guys who have replaced the Bronze Dragonflight will do their mojo and lower our level.

AND if I want to play with a lower level friend, it makes more sense for ME to be downscaled and go join him that it is for HIM to be upscaled to my level. Means he doesn't skip content and I get to go see something new.

Also why do some people here keep insisting that the loot from old instances will be made relevant again in current progression via this downscaling system (or upscaling in the case of Illidan dropping level 90 gear)?

It won't be, it simply won't. Even five seconds thought of the potential implications of old loot being viable would show how flawed an idea it is. Here's one, progression guilds going haywire farming older content when a new tier opens to get the latest version of their favorite sword with the perfect itemisation and the best proc.
Here's another, if you have your favorite sword with the perfect itemisation and the best proc why bother going for the new uber sword that drops from the end boss anymore.

If this goes through, Blizzard will provide some sort of framework to make it feel like a viable use of our time and Blizzard will provide interesting rewards that justify our participation. It just won't be gear.

[Azrile]

Hence the tiny percentage of the population running Challenge Modes.


Something this hyped should be aimed at the majority of the playerbase, and the Brawler's Guild was most definitely aimed at the minority (either a long grind or at least 1kG on the Black Market AH in order to access).

But it wasn´t hyped at all!!!!! GC mentioned it one time in a very quick tweet, and then 2 or 3 devs were asked about it quickly in interviews. In fact, GC even said in his initial tweet that ´ a lot of people will say ´´meh....that´s it?´. The hype and discussion has all been on fansites, not from the actual devs. As far as I know, it was just one quick comment from GC about a month ago, and then a few questions from fansites since then.

[Dionysius]

I Do NOT want to " show the propper respect " all over again! :-(