Elemental 5.2 BIS

[Eruionmel]

This is what I would do for BiS:

(Note: PE, not EB.)

http://www.wowhead.com/compare?items...436:96485&l=85
Helm: Headpiece of the Witch Doctor
Neck: Soul Prism of Lei-Shen
Shoulders: Shoulderwraps of the Witch Doctor
Cloak: Deadly Glare Cape
Chest: Chains of Counted Souls
Bracers: Vein-Cover Bracers
Gloves: Gloves of the Witch Doctor
Belt: Longdraw Chain Belt
Pants: Kilt of the Witch Doctor
Boots: World-Mote Sabatons
Ring1: Ra-den's Evolving Signet
Ring2: Ra-den's Summoning Band
Trinket1: Cha-Ye's Essence of Brilliance
Trinket2: Breath of the Hydra
Weapon: Athame of the Sanguine Ritual
Offhand: Tortos' Discarded Shell

Obviously there are alternatives for the Ra-den pieces. I skipped the heroic trash drops, since you can only get those from the BMA, and I also skipped the randomly itemized wrist, since it's very unlikely that you would get the technically BiS version in T-forged. There is an offhand that has better stats, but I refuse to take an OH over a shield. :P One really nice thing about this setup is that it skimps a lot on the spirit, so you're just barely over the hitcap and you won't need to reforge out of spirit much at all. In the event that the 4-piece isn't used on every fight, I would switch the helm out for the haste/mastery helm, leaving 3 pieces of tier still. I took that neck because the build is really skimped on spirit as it is, and I hate the idea of taking a pure mastery or pure crit piece. I will be open to switching to the crit neck, however, if crit begins simming really high for PE in the later part of the tier (once we get the meta, for example). The cloak is a tossup, as the Ra-den one is already thunderforged, but the itemization on the Durumu one is so fantastic that it could be worth it to hope for a thunderforged one of that.

[Eggwolls]

Can someone post some numbers on why Cha-Ye's is considered one of our BiS? And any other numbers on the other trinkets would be nice as well.

[Kralljin]

There is an offhand that has better stats, but I refuse to take an OH over a shield.

http://www.wowhead.com/item=96538 is the way to go.

Spirit / Mastery, Red Socket.

And personally i'd take those Bracers from Council with a non Spirit Enchant, then you can pull more use out of your gear by using Spirit / Int Gems and very useful Socket Bonus.

[Intrepid1]

I'm still seeing 4pc sim as a dps loss. Is anyone else ?

[Kralljin]

I'm still seeing 4pc sim as a dps loss. Is anyone else ?

Can someone explain me why this Setbonus should be a Dps loss?

Aside from the Skull Banner argument of course.

[Skurkitty]

--Note: Caught my double post and deleted it.--

Can someone post some numbers on why Cha-Ye's is considered one of our BiS? And any other numbers on the other trinkets would be nice as well.

To quote Eruion from another thread. -

Reasoning on Cha-Ye's is that crit is actually quite good this tier (especially with PE, which I run), and the nature of the proc makes it much more likely to proc during an ascendance, which is exactly when you want it.

From what I've understood crit might scale well this tier so the trinket just works overall, should crit be horrible you can obviously just reforge it off for haste or mastery. But how the proc works still remains to be good for the reasons he stated.

Breath of the Hydra was also noted, with him saying.

Breath may suffer the same problem, since we only have one DoT

This comment is in regards to the proc chance due to us only having one DoT. I personally don't see this as an issue though, as most fights grant the Shaman the ability to double up on Flame Shock targets. Which in turn has it's added benefits for the cost of the GCD to apply Flame Shock to two targets. So on a fight like Magaera you can simply DoT both the heads which increase the chance for this trinket to proc on top of more Lava Burst procs which can then in turn help the 4piece even more should it turn out to be worth it pending the discussions that are going around.

This is what I would do for BiS

I had to cut your link heavily since I can't post links yet. But I was curious if you have a list in mind for items WITHOUT Ra-Den drops. I've been attempting to put one together slowly but am missing a few spots and just by your cloak choice I've already made some mistakes it would seem.

[Deleted]

Can someone explain me why this Setbonus should be a Dps loss?

Aside from the Skull Banner argument of course.

I guess thats the biggest part, altho I don't really agree with that to a certain degree for the following reasons:

Our warriors in our raid are not really reliable when it comes the banner and at least 50% of the time I use ascendance without a banner (apart from the pull obviously). Furthermore, on fights like Dark Animus, where you only really have 3 minutes to kill the boss (since he kills the raid after 3 minutes), the 4 pc bonus is gold. Plus, I am an orc, and with a shorter Ascendance CD, I don't have to have my racial unused for another whole minute (no, Im not going troll). Also, Im planning to raid with a heavy mastery build (already am), so its contribution more to the 4pc too.

I guess it really depends on the fight, but mostly I consider it a dps gain FOR ME for the reasons listed above (mostly our warriors not being reliable :P ).

[zenga]

Our warriors in our raid are not really reliable when it comes the banner and at least 50% of the time I use ascendance without a banner (apart from the pull obviously).

Then train them so they become more reliable. Get RSA from curse, setup a private message to your warrior to pop skull banner every time you get ascendance. I trained our tank warrior (only girl in the raid) with a yell: 'all who are not popping skull banner now while they are able to are stupid cunts'. And I explained why it's more beneficial to drop skull banner 4-5s after the pull than on second 1 (trinket procs). On the 3rd reset of MoP she was fully trained.

[Deleted]

Then train them so they become more reliable. Get RSA from curse, setup a private message to your warrior to pop skull banner every time you get ascendance. I trained our tank warrior (only girl in the raid) with a yell: 'all who are not popping skull banner now while they are able to are stupid cunts'. And I explained why it's more beneficial to drop skull banner 4-5s after the pull than on second 1 (trinket procs). On the 3rd reset of MoP she was fully trained.

I Lol'd. @the stupid cunts part

Yeah I always rage when my cd comes off, and we have plenty of time to nuke and there is no banner. But I guess I will follow your advice regarding the whisper/yell.

[Kralljin]

I guess thats the biggest part, altho I don't really agree with that to a certain degree for the following reasons:

Our warriors in our raid are not really reliable when it comes the banner and at least 50% of the time I use ascendance without a banner (apart from the pull obviously). Furthermore, on fights like Dark Animus, where you only really have 3 minutes to kill the boss (since he kills the raid after 3 minutes), the 4 pc bonus is gold. Plus, I am an orc, and with a shorter Ascendance CD, I don't have to have my racial unused for another whole minute (no, Im not going troll). Also, Im planning to raid with a heavy mastery build (already am), so its contribution more to the 4pc too.

I guess it really depends on the fight, but mostly I consider it a dps gain FOR ME for the reasons listed above (mostly our warriors not being reliable :P ).

I'm going to re post my timeline that shows for a 5min Fight that this Set bonus is actually a Dps Increase, though this was before the 4pc buff, it would still work.

With this Setbonus you can use Ascendance 3 times per Fight, now it will be like that:
0:00 Ascendance + Skull Banner
2:00 Ascendance without Skull Banner
3:00 No Skull Banner as Warrior keep it for Execute Phase
4:00 Ascendance is ready again but you don't use it because Boss it still above 20%
4:15 Boss is below 20%, Warrior blows Reck+Skull Banner and you use Ascendance
5:00 Boss dead

In this scenario you got 3 Ascendance with 2 Skull Banner while without the Setbonus you got 2 with 2 Skull Banner, obvious Dps Increase.

With the 4Pc buff it would be like that: (I'm going with a 90sec Ascendance CD)

0:00 Ascendance + Skull Banner
1:30 Ascendance, no Skull Banner
3:00 Ascendance, no Skull Banner as Warrior keep it for Execute
4:30 Ascendance, Skull Banner questionable Warrior want to line up CD's with Trinket Procs, i'm assuming that Skull Banner was not lined up with Ascendance
5:00 Boss dead

You got in a 5minute Fight: 4 Ascendance with 1 Skull Banner vs. 2 Ascendance with 2 Skull Banner

Not sure if my horrible math skills are right but i think in that scenario Skull Banner had to triple the effectiveness of Ascendance to be equal.

[Intrepid1]

Do we know if the CD reduction counts EotE and Mastery procs ? If it doesn't, outside of ascendance you need to be casting a LvB every 4.2 seconds if my math is correct for a 2 min CD. I don't know as even with Mastery procs as a 2 min CD is realistic outside of a sim.

[Kralljin]

Do we know if the CD reduction counts EotE and Mastery procs ? If it doesn't, outside of ascendance you need to be casting a LvB every 4.2 seconds if my math is correct for a 2 min CD. I don't know as even with Mastery procs as a 2 min CD is realistic outside of a sim.

Mastery counts and a 2min CD was mostly the case with the pre nerf version as you already lose like ~20 Seconds during Ascendance.

[Intrepid1]

Mastery counts and a 2min CD was mostly the case with the pre nerf version as you already lose like ~20 Seconds during Ascendance.

My last Sim in my current gear just changing to grab the 4 pc put me at the same dps that I am now. I used Helm,Gloves,Shoulders and Legs for tier. Yet when I went with just the Shoulders and Chest for tier I simmed out 3K higher. My off set pieces were Pants from Lei Shen,Helm from Primordius and Gloves from Ji'Kuhn. So either Simcraft isn't modeling the 4pc correctly or we aren't putting enough value on Skull Banner and racials.

[Gendori]

I would imagine that che ye's is one of our BIS trinkets because the proc scales with the amount of time you crit with no ICD.....Lava burst always crits so theres more chances for the trink to proc, and im sure it will just about always proc during ascendance

Indeed I was lucky enough to get one off Dark Animus on a bonus roll last night and it simmed as a 3.5% dps upgrade over my DMC. Crit also pulled dwad even with my other secondary stats in stat weight.

[Kralljin]

So either Simcraft isn't modeling the 4pc correctly or we aren't putting enough value on Skull Banner and racials.

Skull Banner is quite useful as it puts the Critical Strike Bonus from 259% to 290% (280% without Meta gem) but it's nowhere near to actually make up addtitional Ascendance phases.

Ascendance is with Skull Banner something around 25% (Just guessing here) more effective which results in something around a 2.5% Dps Gain.

Consider that if my assumption with 90seconds is true, you could always use it on CD and still gain every possible Skull Banner along with Ascendance, if a Warrior always uses Skull Banner on CD of course.

[Intrepid1]

I don't see a 90 second CD on ascendance possible really in this tier. It would require an insane amount of mastery procs and lava surge procs to come close to that.

[Eruionmel]

http://www.wowhead.com/item=96538 is the way to go.

Spirit / Mastery, Red Socket.

And personally i'd take those Bracers from Council with a non Spirit Enchant, then you can pull more use out of your gear by using Spirit / Int Gems and very useful Socket Bonus.

I use PE, not EB. Mastery is poo for me. ;P

---------- Post added 2013-03-12 at 08:07 PM ----------

Skull Banner is quite useful as it puts the Critical Strike Bonus from 259% to 290% (280% without Meta gem) but it's nowhere near to actually make up addtitional Ascendance phases.

Ascendance is with Skull Banner something around 25% (Just guessing here) more effective which results in something around a 2.5% Dps Gain.

Consider that if my assumption with 90seconds is true, you could always use it on CD and still gain every possible Skull Banner along with Ascendance, if a Warrior always uses Skull Banner on CD of course.

The sims say it's a DPS loss, dude. Your math is very simplistic and is using a lot of assumptions that may or may not hold true. Not only that, you're only modeling a 5 minute fight. Not every fight is exactly 5 minutes (in fact, just about 0 of them are 5 minutes).

[Kralljin]

The sims say it's a DPS loss, dude. Your math is very simplistic and is using a lot of assumptions that may or may not hold true. Not only that, you're only modeling a 5 minute fight. Not every fight is exactly 5 minutes (in fact, just about 0 of them are 5 minutes).

So it's impossible that Simcraft has an error somewhere with modeling this Setbonus or something like that?

Then at least bring an argument WHY this Setbonus is a Dps loss, Skull Banner cannot be the sole argument as Skull Banner isn't such a huge Dps Increase that suddenly allows to catch up with additional Ascendance Phases.

You cannot simply base this argument on "Simcraft told me and Skull Banner".

This Math should simply show that even if you get less Ascendance Phases while Skull Banner is active, it's still going to be a Dps Increase because you gain additional Ascendance Phases.

This Setbonus would be a Dps loss if Skull Banner is really such a huge Dps Increase for Ascendance but then i'd rather worry about the fact that Elemental seems to require a Warrior that is putting down Skull Banner along with every Ascendance that Elemental can pull competitive Dps.

[Tickle]

Can someone post some numbers on why Cha-Ye's is considered one of our BiS? And any other numbers on the other trinkets would be nice as well.

Someone else touched on this, but Crit is really not as bad this tier as everyone thinks. I don't know why people above are going for pieces without crit. For me, it is currently simming as my highest priority (I'm at 514 with T15 2pc, rocking EM and PE - Mastery obviously goes up if I switch to EotE/EB). I picked up both Cha-Ye and the valor trinket this week, as well as the 2pc. Without an ICD, Cha-Ye can, and in fact, often DOES, proc twice during Ascendance. I had several pulls this week after I got it where it would proc immediately on the first Lava Burst, and then again when it ran out, making my Ascendance burst amazing.

Because Lava Burst always crits, and because you're spamming it during Ascendance, this is very likely to occur repeatedly, unlike the procs of other trinkets. The int proc is also going to be much more valuable than say, a haste or crit proc, because crit would be wasted during Ascendance, and with the meta and/or EM, the haste could also be wasted. The stacking int trinket could be interesting, but it's not going to be at its max amount for long periods of time, and potentially not even during Ascendance, though the sample model T15H in SimulationCraft uses it, so we'll see.

[Eruionmel]

So it's impossible that Simcraft has an error somewhere with modeling this Setbonus or something like that?

Then at least bring an argument WHY this Setbonus is a Dps loss, Skull Banner cannot be the sole argument as Skull Banner isn't such a huge Dps Increase that suddenly allows to catch up with additional Ascendance Phases.

You cannot simply base this argument on "Simcraft told me and Skull Banner".

This Math should simply show that even if you get less Ascendance Phases while Skull Banner is active, it's still going to be a Dps Increase because you gain additional Ascendance Phases.

This Setbonus would be a Dps loss if Skull Banner is really such a huge Dps Increase for Ascendance but then i'd rather worry about the fact that Elemental seems to require a Warrior that is putting down Skull Banner along with every Ascendance that Elemental can pull competitive Dps.

Yes, it could have an error. But who do you think we should assume is wrong? A program written by some of the best players in the world that uses more math than we could ever dream of? Or a random forum player who is guessing and throwing together random scenarios that don't actually mimic any boss fight lengths? I really don't mean to offend, but this is what we're looking at, and you're asking us to ignore the program and math in favor of your argument.

Skull banner isn't the only thing you're desyncing with. There are lots of other factors as well, including other 3 minute CDs, trinket procs, tinkers, etc. Most trinket ICDs are set up so that they line up better with 3 minute CDs. 45 seconds, 1 minute, 30 seconds, etc. If you end up with some wacky CD like 2:20, you're desyncing with a LOT of abilities. Sure, there may be fights where it lines up in such a way that you get an extra 2 ascendances or an extra during a burn phase and it becomes a DPS increase. But on the average fight on simcraft, it's showing as a DPS loss. So I'll be picking up two pieces, letting everyone else get their four sets, and then picking up mine to play around with under the assumption that sometimes I'll want to go back to only the two piece.