Make raid for casual and do it right!

[jbombard]

Fine, when the game dies TBH, I feel blizzard sub are leaking now this will happen:

1) The blizzard defender will reason "WoW died because it was old and people got bored"
2) The complainer will go "WoW died because you made the game into a state that was not exciting and fun to play"

Blizzard will agree with people number 1... and so a GREAT TRAGEDY happened.

They game died for reason 2, blizzard they accepted another reason 1, which wasn't the cause, for its death.

I'm not disagreeing with you. It just comes down to if it is fun play it, if it is not cancel, tell them why, and play something that is fun. Right now people pay Blizzard and complain all day long. As long as people are paying them, they don't care. I do feel there are a lot of things they would be willing to change or add based on player suggestions, however the copy paste raid/gear model I do not think is one of them. The raid gear treadmill is fundamental to their design and too much effort has been put into getting us where we are for them to realistically change it.

[Deleted]

Go ahead and make the current heroics possible to do with 10/15 people like in vanilla, I doubt most people could care less.

[LairenyX]

Go ahead and make the current heroics possible to do with 10/15 people like in vanilla, I doubt most people could care less.

No, I'm saying keep the current heroic for the end game people and only have 25 man version.

...then add to mop stuff that were like UBRS, LBRS, Scholo, and Strath and make it 10 man... with tieir 0 and 0.5 upgrade like gear that are color blue and some epics.

[Deleted]

I was refering to the current 5 man heroic dungeons. Making them possible to do with 10 people (and adding some blue 463 set) is pretty much exactly what you are asking for, if you manage to see past the massive amounts of nostalgia clouding your vision.

[LairenyX]

I was refering to the current 5 man heroic dungeons. Making them possible to do with 10 people (and adding some blue 463 set) is pretty much exactly what you are asking for, if you manage to see past the massive amounts of nostalgia clouding your vision.

Excuse me, there's two type of heroic: Raid and Dungeon.

You didn't specify which. Since my OT was about raiding, I automatically assume you meant raiding over dungeon. Please... clarify yourself before shoving your "nostalgia" boomstick at my face.

The point isn't to convert the current 5 man heroic dungeons to 10 man like in Vanilla. The point is to make a dungeon that were similar to the one in Vanilla... in size and difficultly. We dont want to change what already exist.

[BrerBear]

Fine, when the game dies TBH, I feel blizzard sub are leaking now this will happen:

1) The blizzard defender will reason "WoW died because it was old and people got bored"
2) The complainer will go "WoW died because you made the game into a state that was not exciting and fun to play"

Blizzard will agree with people number 1... and so a GREAT TRAGEDY happened.

They game died for reason 2, blizzard they accepted another reason 1, which wasn't the cause, for its death.

You should probably stop posting your nostalgia threads here and submit your game designer application to Blizzard right away. Don't waste any more time... get going!

[LairenyX]

You should probably stop posting your nostalgia threads here and submit your game designer application to Blizzard right away. Don't waste any more time... get going!

It can't work like that. I have no interest in being a game designer. I am only interested in experiencing fun and excitement.

If you're making a point by saying that let the proffesional do their job... then fine... but I still have the right to make an effort to change the game into a state that I once love.

It's not the nostalgia because I did not have nostalgia when I played back then. SO if it wasn't nostalgia that made me excited and gave me fun then what was it? it wasn't "new" because most game I pick up now a day sucked...

...so then the right answer is that it was the state of the game.

Raiding now a day bring no excitement compared to back then:

1) In gear color
2) LFR

LFR, like I say, makes me don't want to do BOTH type of raiding. I said this before but, why should I do the harder content when I can experience it easily in LFR without hassle? and why should I do LFR if I know I'm only going to get "fake/plastic/notreal" gear?

Seriously, seriously, they had it right Vanilla and BC and they merely need to mix the 2.

[Deleted]

They do make casual raids. It's called LFR difficulty.

They said they'd implement LFR for those who haven't enough time to raid, but it's actually just a lootchest where you are literally able to carry 12-15 players with a premade group.
There isn't anything challenging if you aren't able to spend the time for the whole system (gearing up, dailies, lfr for minor upgrades, raid for real upgrades), the normalmode is well tuned for the average player with 490-495 at best, wouldn't say hard, because it obviously isn't, but decent.
They should just make a raidsize for players without a lot of time (10m) and a raid size for people who want to raid.
No 10m bashing, don't get me wrong, but the advantage of 10m raids is obviously less players needed, so it's the obvious choice for making a content for casuals.

[Deleted]

The point isn't to convert the current 5 man heroic dungeons to 10 man like in Vanilla. The point is to make a dungeon that were similar to the one in Vanilla... in size and difficultly. We dont want to change what already exist.

Excluding the size part (to some extent, we still have 90 scholo & monastery which are quite "long", but obv. not at ubrs level) that's exactly what the current 5 man heroics are. The vanilla dungeons were retardedly easy (even more so with 10 players), so are our current 5 mans.

[Forsedar]

They said they'd implement LFR for those who haven't enough time to raid, but it's actually just a lootchest where you are literally able to carry 12-15 players with a premade group.
There isn't anything challenging if you aren't able to spend the time for the whole system (gearing up, dailies, lfr for minor upgrades, raid for real upgrades), the normalmode is well tuned for the average player with 490-495 at best, wouldn't say hard, because it obviously isn't, but decent.
They should just make a raidsize for players without a lot of time (10m) and a raid size for people who want to raid.
No 10m bashing, don't get me wrong, but the advantage of 10m raids is obviously less players needed, so it's the obvious choice for making a content for casuals.

LFR is still there for those who don't have enough time to experience the content and get gear. Who cares if other people use it for gear too when trying to progress? I'm tired of threads like these. LFR is for casuals. Normal mode is for those who aren't good enough for HMs but for those who want to have that sense of progression. If you are discouraged because LFR doesn't give the same loot- get over it. Blizzard already hands out enough gear.

I do LFR for Valor and DEing for Sha Crystals and Haunted Spirits... and I still wipe quite often to certain bosses, even if I'm doing 30% of the overall damage. LFR obviously isn't easy for everyone, even if for some of us we can AFK through.

[Deleted]

Ever heard of LFR? I went casual doing Dragon Soul and surprisingly and to the dismay of others, it stopped me from flat out quitting the game.

[Minaa]

i am with u and i dont like the idea of LFR coz its killing the fun we killed the first 6 booses in TOT and when we moved from boss to boss we had alot of fun wiping at the trash coz we have no idea what we will face next after this boss . learn and find new ways to kill the boss and after we killed boss num 3 and the movie start we was ... WTF IS THIS ... u know its like when u killed the lich king for the first time and when he 15 % he kill every one and then u get res

[FenrisUy]

They had it right during Vanilla. They need to mix it with TBC.

Even though casual didn't get to "raid" in Vanilla, they actually raided. They raided their heart out. It was called "10 man dungeons" i.e: UBRS, Scholo, Strath Front, Strath Backdoor etc... thought I wish they called 10 man raid instead of dungeon.

The casual had their own raid, they had their own raiding gear to collect, T0, and especially tier 0.5... with upgrade and a few pieces of epic.

This was great! there was raiding for hardcore player and raiding for casual players.

Now they should go back to this system except, instead of 40, make 25 man the next step... so if casual who did 10 man raid liked it... they can work for 25 man.

IMO, 10 man got it pretty much right for both hardcore and casual ppl in Vanilla.

You had to use the community to do it and none of this rediculous "LFR" crap with epic that doesn't feel epic. Make right 10 man right and give its item a rank that make sense (rarity).

I find it hard to believe that so much people still don't understand that a lot of people hated having to spend 1 hour in /trade going LF1M tank/healer for X dungeon. Being able to go out and be out in the world while I wait for a dungeon to pop was so great. Instead of sitting in Dal I could go and do dailies/pvp/what ever. That was so great.

[LairenyX]

I find it hard to believe that so much people still don't understand that a lot of people hated having to spend 1 hour in /trade going LF1M tank/healer for X dungeon. Being able to go out and be out in the world while I wait for a dungeon to pop was so great. Instead of sitting in Dal I could go and do dailies/pvp/what ever. That was so great.

I wish I had more concrete data to convince me if ppl preffered interacting with the community to form groups or skip this and go straight into the action.

...all I really care about is player fluctuation. If I have that then I can argue that everything you say is false.

If blizzard is losing alot of sub now, then the thing I quote you saying is false. People did NOT hated having to "spend 1 hour" if it was even that long.

---------- Post added 2013-03-14 at 03:14 AM ----------

i am with u and i dont like the idea of LFR coz its killing the fun we killed the first 6 booses in TOT and when we moved from boss to boss we had alot of fun wiping at the trash coz we have no idea what we will face next after this boss . learn and find new ways to kill the boss and after we killed boss num 3 and the movie start we was ... WTF IS THIS ... u know its like when u killed the lich king for the first time and when he 15 % he kill every one and then u get res

Why thankyou, I'm glad u agree with me.

[jbombard]

I wish I had more concrete data to convince me if ppl preffered interacting with the community to form groups or skip this and go straight into the action.

...all I really care about is player fluctuation. If I have that then I can argue that everything you say is false.

If blizzard is losing alot of sub now, then the thing I quote you saying is false. People did NOT hated having to "spend 1 hour" if it was even that long...

Even if players were leaving in droves, it isn't quite so easy to find one specific reason behind all of them quitting. I cancelled my sub last week, but I imagine my reasons are different than somebody else's. I don't think it is so much about fun as how can we keep people addicted to crack cocaine, by giving out just enough crack to keep them craving more but not so much that they run out.

[Raleik]

Technicality aside, assume URBS, LBRS, Scholo, and Strath were 10 man raid for casual. Do it like this is my point.

You didn't even have to mention Vanilla... That was essentially the model of BC. You had Kara and ZA which were 10 mans, and the rest were 25 mans. The problem with that was that 10 man guilds couldn't do all of the content because only 2 raids were available to them. They don't want to go back to separating 10 and 25 man lockouts, never mind making entirely different raids for 10 and 25.

[LairenyX]

Even if players were leaving in droves, it isn't quite so easy to find one specific reason behind all of them quitting. I cancelled my sub last week, but I imagine my reasons are different than somebody else's. I don't think it is so much about fun as how can we keep people addicted to crack cocaine, by giving out just enough crack to keep them craving more but not so much that they run out.

Tell me why u quit.

[Raleik]

I wish I had more concrete data to convince me if ppl preffered interacting with the community to form groups or skip this and go straight into the action.

...all I really care about is player fluctuation. If I have that then I can argue that everything you say is false.

If blizzard is losing alot of sub now, then the thing I quote you saying is false. People did NOT hated having to "spend 1 hour" if it was even that long.[COLOR="red"]

People did hate spending that long to form groups. We did it back then because there was no other choice. I remember during BC sitting in Shatt and spamming trade chat to get a 5man group together. I didn't enjoy sitting there and waiting an hour to find that last spot only to have somebody decide it had been too long and leave so you then needed to fill yet another spot. But, I did it because it was the only way to get a group together when guildies either weren't online or were otherwise occupied. Now that we've had LFR and LFD introduced, there is absolutely no way people would be okay with going back to the way it was. If you were to take away such a huge convenience, people would be furious.

[jbombard]

Tell me why u quit.

Ratio of % of time having fun vs. time played was too low.

Too much time spent doing things I don't enjoy while waiting in queues to do stuff that I do enjoy. My main taking so much time leaving with me little time for alts, when alting is my main method to combat burnout, it ended up in me getting burned out(no surprise). I'll leave it at that because I don't want to derail this thread.

[LairenyX]

People did hate spending that long to form groups. We did it back then because there was no other choice. I remember during BC sitting in Shatt and spamming trade chat to get a 5man group together. I didn't enjoy sitting there and waiting an hour to find that last spot only to have somebody decide it had been too long and leave so you then needed to fill yet another spot. But, I did it because it was the only way to get a group together when guildies either weren't online or were otherwise occupied. Now that we've had LFR and LFD introduced, there is absolutely no way people would be okay with going back to the way it was. If you were to take away such a huge convenience, people would be furious.

No, you merely described an annoyance. I know TOO well exactly what you mean because I have experienced LOTS AND LOTS AND LOTS of time... but it's all worth it when I finally got a group together to do something.

It was hella thrilling when pink word whisper "I'll tank or I'll heal"

Just because a part of the game is an annoyance, doesn't mean its bad... some stuff SHOULD be annoying, treated as an obstacle, provide some challenge so the reward can feel good.

I'm complaining furiously to have LFD and LFR remove to go back. It's one of the main reason I quit. Imagine that... an average casual player who is mid road in everything he do quit because an 'annoyance" was removed from the game and replaced with easy.

...imagine that.

Annoyance =/= bad.