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  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Drikkink View Post
    Talk to me when you get paid to play wow. I feel like the people that dedicate weeks of their lives to nothing but wow are obviously driven people that could, you know, actually make something of that time besides "Look guys! I got the 3rd US kill on Lei Shen" or something. My main point, which got lost somewhere, was basically how people can find pulling a boss, dying, running back, pulling, dying, etc. enjoyable for more than a few hours at a time.

    To each his own.
    So money is where its at for you? What will you do with all that money once you're dead? Perhaps it seems like an absurd way to think in our capitalist society driven solely by consumption but money isn't the end of all things for everyone.

    How they do it is called dedication and a will to improve, you think they do exactly the same thing every single pull? If they did, i'd agree with you, it would be a complete waste of time, but each pull is another chance at playing better, trying new strats or just overall improving on a personal or team level. If all you look at is the end result (dying) yeah it sucks, but thats not i'm sure how those guys see it.

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by Drikkink View Post
    Talk to me when you get paid to play wow. I feel like the people that dedicate weeks of their lives to nothing but wow are obviously driven people that could, you know, actually make something of that time besides "Look guys! I got the 3rd US kill on Lei Shen" or something. My main point, which got lost somewhere, was basically how people can find pulling a boss, dying, running back, pulling, dying, etc. enjoyable for more than a few hours at a time.

    To each his own.
    Why do people find 20 guys trying to get a ball for and hour and a half exciting? And yet it is the most popular sport today.

    People also weren't paid in the past for just being fastest or jumping the highest. Now, there's billions of dollars in every sport.

    While we are at it, people do get paid to play WoW. People get paid to play CoD, LoL, SC, it literally is the the same thing. You spend more time, you get better at it. It's somewhat a general rule. Except, for some reason, society likes judge gamers solely on the fact that they play games.

    People are extremely short-sighted. Video-games will become more a lot popular in the future, and they'll attract more and more sponsors and money. It's hard to expect for an e-sport to reach the heights of a regular sport but I am willing to bet that large amount of players will make a living for just being the best.

    on topic: i don't think it's time-investment > skill

    Blood Legion loses every single tier to european guilds which are in disadvantage at the very start because of the time difference.
    There are a ton of guilds that raid as much as I do and are nowhere near my progression, but on the other hand there are some that raid less and have cleared more.

  3. #63
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Irialx View Post
    People should be able to play how they want.

    However its rather hilarious that 9/10 its the TIME these guilds put in that gets them their ranks. NOT skill.
    Not true, the bosses are 5 times harder now than they will be when you ever get to them, due to lower gear, less info out, etc. It's both time AND skill.

  4. #64
    Not having been in one of those guilds, but I'd wager that a lot of their time is not spent on actual practice. I assume most of the time the top guilds are spending on progress is figuring out wtf is happening. Once they get the mechanics figured out, the strategy presents itself to them and then it's only a matter of executing it. My assumption is that the execution phase is probably the shortest. And that is where the theory of "time > skill" fails horribly. Sounds like someone who doesn't have a clue about playing an encounter without a guide on his lap. And also limitations won't solve that scenario, because top guilds would easily use alts to figure out the strategy and end up executing it with their mains once they feel sure. We've seen that in ICC. Such a limited attempts lockout actually led to a bigger gap between top guilds and everyone else, because nobody but the most dedicated will put that much effort into it. It would have the exact opposite effect of what the OP is hoping to achieve.

    Fun fact: The top 50 guilds actually spend a lot less time on raiding with their mains than almost anyone that comes after them.

  5. #65
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Drikkink View Post
    I have my own thoughts about top progression guilds and how idiotic I find them to be (it's a game... is it really a game to you anymore when you spend every waking moment attempting to brute force something?), but limiting them is almost dumber. Let them play how they want to. Let us play how we want to.

    And before accusing me of being a *gasp* casual, I raid 11-14 hours a week.
    +
    Talk to me when you get paid to play wow
    I sincerely hope you're getting paid for those 14 hours a week. Because putting those precious hours in order to get 3/12 NM would be quite embarassaing if it was not "WORTHY"
    .....OR you might just enjoy yourself in a GAME ?! Just like the guys from Paragon/Exodus/Method. So the "get paid or you're are stupid" nonsense can stop already ?

    Can't believe people can be so intolerant.
    I see no difference between you playing 14 hours to kill 3 bosses on normal mode, and Paragon playing 40+ hours to get World First Heroic Mode.
    Pleasure is all it's at.

  6. #66
    This has to be the stupidest thing I have ever heard of. Wanna lose more subs ?? Better cap play time wooooo !! ¬.¬

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by Yhal View Post
    +


    I sincerely hope you're getting paid for those 14 hours a week. Because putting those precious hours in order to get 3/12 NM would be quite embarassaing if it was not "WORTHY"
    .....OR you might just enjoy yourself in a GAME ?! Just like the guys from Paragon/Exodus/Method. So the "get paid or you're are stupid" nonsense can stop already ?

    Can't believe people can be so intolerant.
    I see no difference between you playing 14 hours to kill 3 bosses on normal mode, and Paragon playing 40+ hours to get World First Heroic Mode.
    Pleasure is all it's at.
    Missing the point is apparently your specialty. I have no problem with people willing to spend 12 consecutive hours raiding and bashing their heads into a wall. I like progression raiding myself, but even still, there's a point where I don't see how doing something over and over again to brute force an encounter is "fun". I logged some ridiculous number of pulls on heroic spine and I began to resent raid times coming. How is that a game anymore?

    In case you miss the point again... PROGRESSION RAID GOOD. BASH HEAD INTO WALL BAD. ME NO THINK IT WORK.

  8. #68
    When you bash your head against a wall, you should probably ask your raidleader to stop and think where the mistakes are. Not every approach to a strategy fits every group.

  9. #69
    Deleted
    Anyone who believes that the guys in top guilds like Method, BL or Paragon aren't both as good as it gets skill wise AND willing to dedicate huge amounts of time is delusional. You have to give them a lot of credit, they set an outrageously challenging goal that takes complete mental focus for 1-3 weeks and in the end there's a winner. It's funny to think average players genuinely believe that if Method were only raiding 4 nights a week their 2000 ranked guild would compete with them. It's why we read class guides on method or paragon's websites. They're the guys busting their balls on the PTR at 4 AM checking stat weights for an upcoming patch. If 99% of the raiding world was presented with a fresh set of patch notes and had to deduce what the best stat priorities, ability priorities and gear were for their given spec they wouldn't have a damned clue where to begin (neither would I).

  10. #70
    Brewmaster juzalol's Avatar
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    It's more like:

    Skill * Time Invested = Results

    So obviously when you are reaching the top end of the skill chart the way you
    get an advantage over other guilds is by investing more time.

  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by Drikkink View Post
    Talk to me when you get paid to play wow. I feel like the people that dedicate weeks of their lives to nothing but wow are obviously driven people that could, you know, actually make something of that time besides "Look guys! I got the 3rd US kill on Lei Shen" or something. My main point, which got lost somewhere, was basically how people can find pulling a boss, dying, running back, pulling, dying, etc. enjoyable for more than a few hours at a time.

    To each his own.
    You do know that quit a few of the top world guilds have endorsements right? Get paid trips for Blizzard events, free ventrillo services, web services etc etc. All you really need to do is go to a few of the consistent top world guild sites and you'll see names like ASUS, Steelseries, Nvidea, Origin etc etc. So there is a lot more on the line for those guilds than the "woohoo i got world 2nd".

    I also would bet money that most people that are "raiders" couldnt even make the bench for a lot of those guilds.

  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by Gsara View Post
    You do know that quit a few of the top world guilds have endorsements right? Get paid trips for Blizzard events, free ventrillo services, web services etc etc. All you really need to do is go to a few of the consistent top world guild sites and you'll see names like ASUS, Steelseries, Nvidea, Origin etc etc. So there is a lot more on the line for those guilds than the "woohoo i got world 2nd".

    I also would bet money that most people that are "raiders" couldnt even make the bench for a lot of those guilds.
    There's maybe a handfull of people in the world that gets paid a full time job for raiding at top level, some of them do for sure but they also stream a lot, manage websites and sponsorship etc. If you think that the entire raid team of Method, Blood Legion, Paragon, Exodus and the rest gets paid you're so far off the truth it's not even funny.

  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by Gsara View Post
    You do know that quit a few of the top world guilds have endorsements right? Get paid trips for Blizzard events, free ventrillo services, web services etc etc. All you really need to do is go to a few of the consistent top world guild sites and you'll see names like ASUS, Steelseries, Nvidea, Origin etc etc. So there is a lot more on the line for those guilds than the "woohoo i got world 2nd".

    I also would bet money that most people that are "raiders" couldnt even make the bench for a lot of those guilds.
    Somehow I doubt the average "grunt" sees any endorsement money even if they're in BL or whatever.

    And I'm not arguing that those people aren't skilled. They're objectively better than me at this game. They're objectively some of the best IN the game. That's probably why then spend 3x more time raiding than a normal person. I don't really think time = skill or time > skill. I just think that people that value time over skill in this game aren't particularly sane.

  14. #74
    Deleted
    I think the suggestion that skill and time invested are independent is flawed. While people obviously have different levels of innate ability no-one starts playing this game at a world first level. Those who end up at the top get there by putting in the hours, this is true about pretty much anything humans choose to do. As Einstein said "genius is 99% perspiration".

    Attempting to separate effort and skill is a fairly negative thing to do as it encourages us to not put in any effort to improve by enforcing the fallacy that you either have the ability or you don't. While it is clearly impossible to compete with world first guilds without putting in the time they put in I would suggest that putting in that time is what makes the already exceptional players in those guilds reach levels higher than the players in lesser guilds.

  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by Huntingbear_grimbatol View Post
    There's maybe a handfull of people in the world that gets paid a full time job for raiding at top level, some of them do for sure but they also stream a lot, manage websites and sponsorship etc. If you think that the entire raid team of Method, Blood Legion, Paragon, Exodus and the rest gets paid you're so far off the truth it's not even funny.
    No one suggested that every person shares in the spoils, I know for a fact its not like that.
    Last edited by Gsara; 2013-03-15 at 12:58 PM.

  16. #76
    Deleted
    I agree with the skill/time correlation.
    I just dislike when people start judging others just to feel better about themselves.
    How do you draw a line between "progression" and "bash head into walls" ?! Short answer is: you don't draw that line for other people. To each its own.
    I highly value this "progression per time spent" but I respect the choice of others to put the balance in a different way than I do. And everybody should do just that instead of doing cheap analysis about sanity/dedication and whatnot.

    Back to topic: no amount of time would allow me to reach the level of play of those guys. Everytime I kill an endboss on heroic mode and I compare [the time spent on it]/[nerfs]/[gear]/[strategies already done] that I have to what the best guilds in the world had when they killed said boss...I stop kidding myself. Time is just a factor and not the biggest one imo. Paragon killed Jin Rokh, Ji-Kun and Tortos on Heroic mode in less than 1 hour each ? Let's see how long it will take us to do the same

  17. #77
    Hardcore Raiding: Time investment > Skill
    Duh

    /nextthread

  18. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by Funkthepunk View Post
    By stating time investment > skill you seem to assume that these aren't already some of the best players in the world in their respective field. Not only are they the ones getting the top ranks once all logs are made official and gear seems to be more equalized, but they are at the same time able to optimize their role for what is best for their team.
    Even then they have to be able to plan ahead of time regarding their gear choices (for fights that haven't been killed before, with specs they don't if they will be playing), seeing as they aren't able to get the theorycrafting done during progress, as those hours are used on killing bosses.

    And while that is said, these players also have to know about the meta game. They need to be able to strategize, and be able to perform a multitude of roles on several characters.

    Just because you think top guilds spends a hell of a time killing content, doesn't mean that players who play less would have a chance competing against them. This isnt only about being time efficient, but also about spending your time outside the game for both mentally preperation, but also being able to use tools outside the game to optimize your performance in the game.

    By they way, these players are extremely time efficient because of their preperation (even when you take into consideration that they are playing for many hours straight). Just look at their kill times. There are many good 3 days a week guilds, but even the best of these guilds aren't close to the time efficientcy of the world's best guilds, despite them actually having kill videos, time to theorycraft outside the game, and several weeks of loot drops in addition to what the fastest guilds had when they were doing the content.

    I honestly think your title is a bit ignorant, as if the world's best guilds aren't already the best players, at the top of their career. Not only is it the most dedicated and skilled players that gets the opportunity to play along with the very best, but even beyond that point they will put their whole mind and soul into becoming better at the game, because beyond that point it is where competetion starts to become real fun.

    If they don't like doing what they are doing, they will simply stop doing it. Hence you see many hardcore players quitting/going casual after every tier. Staying hardcore is not something that is made for everyone, but everyone should have the opportunity of doing so.
    By your statement, you assume only the people on those current top teams are the best players in the world and no one else could even be close in talent. That is complete garbage. You are a bad and you should feel bad for even thinking it.

    There are many people who have played on those teams, at that level, but no longer have the time because of family, career, or whatever the reason. There are also many highly skilled players who just didn't have the time available to invest from the start but to say they are not as skilled as the new teams and previous bench-warmers? That's just a stupid assumption and comes from the lack of understanding hardcore raiding.

    That being said, I disagree with the OP about limiting playtime. Although it would be nice to be on an even playing field so skill would win over time spent, but it would really ruin the whole atmosphere of hardcore raiding.

    Those good players with unlimited time to put in will always be members of the top teams over the most skilled players in the world (with less time available). The same goes for new tiers. Those guilds that have a 15+ ilvl advantage will blow through the content so much faster and it isn't possible for a team with even the most skilled players ever assembled to compete with them. Next you're going to ask that everyone be the same ilvl every new tier so it's fair. It shouldn't be "fair" they spend the extra time, they receive the extra reward of being ahead.

    Think about this, who would you want pushing a world first with? Player A, a guy who always tops the charts, never steps in poop but can't make 1/4 of the time requirements, or Player B, a guy who does a little bit less on the charts, steps in poop every once in a while, but is able to be there every second of every raid and has extra time to spare to devote to the guild? Both are highly skilled players, Player A is obviously a better player, but he cannot be part of the team because he cannot make the time requirements.

    At the end of the day Time > Skill in hardcore raiding. It always has, and it always will. That being said, there are no bads on those top teams, but there are also world class players playing on casual/semi-hardcore teams without the time to invest, burned out or lack of interest in playing at that level.
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  19. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by Irialx View Post
    People should be able to play how they want.

    However its rather hilarious that 9/10 its the TIME these guilds put in that gets them their ranks. NOT skill.
    Its actually their SKILL+time that gets world firsts. No amount of time is gonna get an unskilled player a world first.
    do what you feel.

  20. #80
    As a solution to the OP's Epeen dilemma, they could normalize your ilvl for LFR and you could try to rank with skill alone. That would be kinda fun.

    Meh...that wouldn't work. For some people LFR is their raiding experience and why would they do it if the gear they get doesn't help them improve their character in that environment?
    Last edited by DarthMetatron; 2013-03-15 at 01:56 PM.
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