Thunderforged: 25 man vs 10 man

[Deleted]

Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't see the problem regarding drop rates.

According to numbers from WoWprogress, 10 man has a 10 % chance while 25 man has a 25 % chance.

10 kills in 10man = 1 item, which means 10 % of the raiders get TF-loot.
10 kills in 25man = 2,5 items, which means 10 % of the raiders get TF-loot.

Obviously drop chance has to be higher in 25 man since there is more players to gear up. Thunderforged items are implemented to make the 30. farm kill more productive, not favouring 25man guilds.

This would be true if bosses dropped the same amount of loot in 10 and 25 man. Hint: they don't.

10 kills in 10 man = 20 items = 2 TF which means 20% of the raiders got TF loot
10 kills in 25 man = 60 items = 15 TF which means 60% of the raiders got TF loot

25 man are gearing up on TF three times as fast!

[Deleted]

If your 10-man raid is wasting loot, it's because you didn't balance it properly with the right classes and specs. That's not 25 man raiders' problem. That's your problem.

Bullshit. I've seen others claiming the same, but it's just bullshit. It may be true for the casual 10 man guilds but for any decent 10 man guild, you won't see idiotic setups.

We're missing a Shadow Priest and a Resto Shaman in our roster atm, something that should be solved rather fast.

So to give an example:

Guardian Bear
Prot Warrior

DK
Warrior
Rogue

Warlock
Mage
Hunter
(Spriest)

Priest
Monk
Paladin
(Shaman)

Now, what happens, when the second Agi mail chest drops and the Shaman is Ele OS? What happens to the second tanking shield, when the Warrior dps never gets to use his Prot OS? What happens to all the Mail Intel gear, when the Resto Shaman is rotated out? Or the Plate healing gear, when the Hpala is sitting out?

With so much loot on every boss, you can't just say "This boss drops something for X class, so X class gets to be in on the kill" as we could in T14. We've already had several items going to OS or we had to DE it and at the beginning of the Tier, that's certainly not something you're happy about.

I see people defending the disparity in drop rates of TF items and as I've already said several times - I agree that 25 man needed some sort of incentive to stop the drastic decline. But this is just retarded. Have a look at some of the people from top guilds (Top 20) and see the amount of gear they've already gotten from 1 reset. I'll tell you this, most of our raiders have only gotten the VP items so far. How do you think that's going to affect the progression?

It's not just about the disparity in drop rate, it's also the fact that 10 man already suffers from RNG a lot more than 25 mans. Trying to deny this, just shows that you haven't been in a 10 man guild recently. The lucky 10 man guilds and the unlucky 25 man guilds exists ofc. But the unlucky 10 man guilds versus the lucky 25 man guilds have a huge gear gap and that's an issue, when Blizz wants both raid sizes to be equal.

[Dubalicious]

Have a look at some of the people from top guilds (Top 20) and see the amount of gear they've already gotten from 1 reset.

Funneling gear doesn't happen in the large majority of 25 man guilds though, only the bleeding edge guilds have the ability to do that.

Let's just take TF for what it is, giving 25 mans an increased item level while providing a small chance for 10 man to get 25 man gear drops. That seems like a fair assessment of the end result of this 'experiment'. Just seems like Wrath with a smaller discrepancy and the difference is "masked" under "Thunderforged"

[Ruffles]

Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't see the problem regarding drop rates.

According to numbers from WoWprogress, 10 man has a 10 % chance while 25 man has a 25 % chance.

10 kills in 10man = 1 item, which means 10 % of the raiders get TF-loot.
10 kills in 25man = 2,5 items, which means 10 % of the raiders get TF-loot.

Obviously drop chance has to be higher in 25 man since there is more players to gear up. Thunderforged items are implemented to make the 30. farm kill more productive, not favouring 25man guilds.

Maybe it's 10% per boss instead of number of bosses.

---------- Post added 2013-03-12 at 09:48 PM ----------

I see people defending the disparity in drop rates of TF items and as I've already said several times - I agree that 25 man needed some sort of incentive to stop the drastic decline. But this is just retarded. Have a look at some of the people from top guilds (Top 20) and see the amount of gear they've already gotten from 1 reset. I'll tell you this, most of our raiders have only gotten the VP items so far. How do you think that's going to affect the progression?

It's not just about the disparity in drop rate, it's also the fact that 10 man already suffers from RNG a lot more than 25 mans. Trying to deny this, just shows that you haven't been in a 10 man guild recently. The lucky 10 man guilds and the unlucky 25 man guilds exists ofc. But the unlucky 10 man guilds versus the lucky 25 man guilds have a huge gear gap and that's an issue, when Blizz wants both raid sizes to be equal.

You are trying to put 10 man and 25 man in a single race which is pointless. Remember, 10 man and 25 man are 2 different leagues, if you look at them as 1 league, you are doing something wrong.
If some 10 man guilds go 25 man just for loot, they will have a higher chance of winning the race against other 10 man guilds (like paragon went 25 man normal in tier 14).

[Galaddriel]

Thunderforged is dropping from LFR trash now. Did they give a percent on that?

[Waltzinblack]

Just killed Horridon and got 4 Thunderforged items, I do think it needs to be reduced.

[Pacab]

Just killed Horridon and got 4 Thunderforged items, I do think it needs to be reduced.

Your anecdotal evidence has just been sent to blizzard as all the evidence required to nerf thunderforged drop rate in 25 man, good work.

[Koji2k11]

now everyone will start running 25m instead of 10m so they gear up faster and raid heroic 10m good job blizzard

[Dubalicious]

now everyone will start running 25m instead of 10m so they gear up faster and raid heroic 10m good job blizzard

Why weren't they doing this pre-TF? It would make sense to run 25man for the normal clear at the very least ala Paragon.

I don't see this happening.

[Forsedar]

I don't understand the complaints here. It was foolish to consider it fair between 10 and 25 raiding because 25man has nothing to offer for the extra work of maintaining a stable environment and taking the time to actually prepare and coordinate 25 people. Now, they added a bonus to the loot (*BONUS) that will give you an extra boost over time when you're having trouble clearing content. Why is it bad that more than double the amount of people get double the drop rate of something? If the drop rates were the same... gearing your raid in a 10man environment would be easier than a 25man environment. The different isn't 20% compared to 40%. If 10man has 1 item drop, that is 1 out of 10 people getting a TF item. If 2 drop in 25man, that is 2 out of 25 getting a TF item.

There is no need to complain. Yes, 25mans will gear faster. That is the reward for taking the extra effort. Effort = reward.

[Deleted]

since 25 man will gear way faster and outgear every boss so much quicker .. 25mans has become a joke. 10mans are so much harder

its all about the gear - thanks blizzard

[Jiigeri]

I don't understand the complaints here. It was foolish to consider it fair between 10 and 25 raiding because 25man has nothing to offer for the extra work of maintaining a stable environment and taking the time to actually prepare and coordinate 25 people. Now, they added a bonus to the loot (*BONUS) that will give you an extra boost over time when you're having trouble clearing content. Why is it bad that more than double the amount of people get double the drop rate of something? If the drop rates were the same... gearing your raid in a 10man environment would be easier than a 25man environment. The different isn't 20% compared to 40%. If 10man has 1 item drop, that is 1 out of 10 people getting a TF item. If 2 drop in 25man, that is 2 out of 25 getting a TF item.

There is no need to complain. Yes, 25mans will gear faster. That is the reward for taking the extra effort. Effort = reward.

Wouldn't it make much more sense to make changes so that the organization of 25 man raids would be a tad easier instead of making the content trivial compared to 10 mans? I have no problem with 25m having a SLIGHTLY higher gearing, but the current system is beyond ridiculous. By the logic you are using, wouldn't 10 mans now deserve an reward for the added effort for having harder content due to slower gearing? 25 mans already had more loot per raider, even just slightly. Not to mention that it's a lot more likely to see certain item drop at least every now and then in 25m, when in 10 man you might have the same tier token for weeks straight.

The higher droprate of thunderforged items for 25mans is way too high, much like I anticipated when they announced this in the first place. As I said, I have no problems with 25 mans having a bit faster gearing but it's currently just way too quick... Oh well, I'll hope they would find out a way to please at least most of both parties.

[Deleted]

10-mans suddenly really became the harder content seems ridiculous but due to the lack of thunderforged items, you find yourself on a completely different gear level... not to mention the mechanics which are kinda unforgiving in 10-man - meaning that they disable a much greater raid percentage then in the case of 25-mans (3 people running away from laser beams in 10-man vs 3 in 25-man... come on ;-P)

[Deleted]

I know a 25man guild who got 6 TF items from Jin'rok + 3 extra from Coin, 5 TF from Horridon + 2 more from coin
that's 16 TF items from 2 bosses, so far my 10man guild has done 9/12 twice and we've gotten 1 TF item.. i'm all for giving 25man more loot but this is just too much...

[kilj]

I agree..... how about they just make 2 loot slot for thunderforged item.... so if we got 2 loot slots for 10 man you have a change to get 1 or 2 from those and in 25 you only have 2 slots for TF as well... for a chance... NOT INFINITE CHANCES

[Deleted]

10/12 10 man, two TF items thus far. Don't really mind either way, but seeing 5 TF pieces drop off one boss for a guild seems a bit over the top. I'd personally make it rarer on 10 and give 25 the current 10m chance if anything.

I support this, thunderforged should be rare either way...but as you said even more rare to 10. Glad there are still people who like at it from a neutral perspective.

[Royalite]

Blizzard already explained that 10s are increasing while 25s are decreasing. Saying 10-man "got a raw deal" in this case is stupid. 10s are easier to maintain.

Yea it doesn't makes sense for all the criers saying 25 mans are so easy for all the reasons listed above. Yet 25mans are such a small portion of the raiding population. Doesn't make sense if 25mans were soo easy why are they such a shrinking raiding style?

[fangless]

Yea it doesn't makes sense for all the criers saying 25 mans are so easy for all the reasons listed above. Yet 25mans are such a small portion of the raiding population. Doesn't make sense if 25mans were soo easy why are they such a shrinking raiding style?

Probably because the most vocal people on this website are ones that have no experience outside of LFR anyhow.

[Deleted]

25 man guilds were flirting with being less than ever previous tier.
For a 25 to happen you need more input of equally skilled players.
That takes extra efford from many and extra patience from the rest.

If there is nothing to combensate for that, there is no way in hell 25 to be a viable choice where the most retarded equation in the history of mmo's is the basic principal behind a raiding model.

10=25.
What a joke...

[happyzod]

25 mans should just die, like 40 mans. There is no point to having 25 mans when 10 mans are much better. Less players means more individual responsibility, which means a more compelling raiding experience.

There is nothing difficult about organizing 25mans. Compared to classic, where you had to organize 40 people, 25 is a joke. I don't know why people whine like its any difficult. If 25 mans have trouble with turnover, guess what? Its not 25 mans that are the problem, its the raiding environment of 25mans that are the problem. Stop being assholes to your raiders and you will have less turnover, which means less time spent on recruitment.

Basically, its a problem with the people organizing the 25 mans, not the 25 man format. That needs to be fixed by the people and guilds themselves, not babysat by Blizzard.

---------- Post added 2013-03-18 at 04:43 AM ----------

I don't understand the complaints here. It was foolish to consider it fair between 10 and 25 raiding because 25man has nothing to offer for the extra work of maintaining a stable environment and taking the time to actually prepare and coordinate 25 people. Now, they added a bonus to the loot (*BONUS) that will give you an extra boost over time when you're having trouble clearing content. Why is it bad that more than double the amount of people get double the drop rate of something? If the drop rates were the same... gearing your raid in a 10man environment would be easier than a 25man environment. The different isn't 20% compared to 40%. If 10man has 1 item drop, that is 1 out of 10 people getting a TF item. If 2 drop in 25man, that is 2 out of 25 getting a TF item.

That's the wrong mindset. 25 mans have plenty to offer. Usually, in 25 mans, there are plenty of people to group, quest, and do things with. Its far different in 10 man guilds, where there are usually not alot of people online during different times of the day. The problem is that the 25 man guilds do not offer a positive raiding environment to the players. If a 25 man guild treats its raiders well, then everyone will want to raid for that 25 man guild rather than join a 10 man guild that treats its players poorly.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zlE5PWebOTc
Don't be like the 25 man guild in this video. They all laugh and taunt a player up until he leaves the raid. A week later, they're doing 10 mans instead of 25 mans. I'd imagine that the raiding environment for players in that guild was not a fun one.