Thunderforged: 25 man vs 10 man

[Deleted]

Maybe it's 10% per boss instead of number of bosses.

---------- Post added 2013-03-12 at 09:48 PM ----------



You are trying to put 10 man and 25 man in a single race which is pointless. Remember, 10 man and 25 man are 2 different leagues, if you look at them as 1 league, you are doing something wrong.
If some 10 man guilds go 25 man just for loot, they will have a higher chance of winning the race against other 10 man guilds (like paragon went 25 man normal in tier 14).

And I personally agree with you on this, it's not possible to really compare 10 and 25 and have them equal, but that's what Blizz are saying. And when they go out and say "We want 10's and 25's to be equal", when the 2 sizes share the achievements and lockouts and drop the same ilvl gear, then it's just plain retarded to reward 25 man with so much more loot. Cause if that's what they really want, they should just come out and say it. Revert the changes back to WotLK and be done with it. Cause right now they're not just rewarding 25 man for the extra work it requires to maintain a 25 man roster, they're completely shafting 10 man.

---------- Post added 2013-03-18 at 10:06 AM ----------

I don't understand the complaints here. It was foolish to consider it fair between 10 and 25 raiding because 25man has nothing to offer for the extra work of maintaining a stable environment and taking the time to actually prepare and coordinate 25 people. Now, they added a bonus to the loot (*BONUS) that will give you an extra boost over time when you're having trouble clearing content. Why is it bad that more than double the amount of people get double the drop rate of something? If the drop rates were the same... gearing your raid in a 10man environment would be easier than a 25man environment. The different isn't 20% compared to 40%. If 10man has 1 item drop, that is 1 out of 10 people getting a TF item. If 2 drop in 25man, that is 2 out of 25 getting a TF item.

There is no need to complain. Yes, 25mans will gear faster. That is the reward for taking the extra effort. Effort = reward.

But people haven't been complaining about 25 man gearing faster in general. People are complaining about the effect of TF items completely fucking over 10 man guilds, cause the difference in ilvl is going to be huge now. If you can't see, how it's unfair of Blizz to claim they consider the 2 raid sizes equal, yet giving 25 man a huge gear advantage from TF items, I don't know what to say.......

I've said it for a while now, that 25 man needed some attention in order to stop the rapid decline of 25 man guilds but it seems moronic to do so by shafting 10 man guilds like this. Again, people may not think that 10 and 25 man should be considered equal (I don't think they should either), cause there's too many differences to actually compare them imo. But when Blizz wants them to be, they freaking better stop giving one raid size a huge advantage over the other in terms of gear.

[Hokuto]

I can armory one 25m raider right now and see more equipped TF gear than ever dropped for my 10m group in two full clears. We're effectively back to WotLK with 10s being behind inferior gear wise, it's just not as obvious. Just give it time and watch the iLvl gap grow.

I wish they had been more honest on their intent. TF isn't an incentive, it's an advantage. There's a reason they were vague and never officially revealed the drop rates.

[Sesshou]

I can armory one 25m raider right now and see more equipped TF gear than ever dropped for my 10m group in two full clears. We're effectively back to WotLK with 10s being behind inferior gear wise, it's just not as obvious. Just give it time and watch the iLvl gap grow.

Maybe if they were funneling gear to a single person... You are greatly over-exaggerating things. Yeah, the 25m raid would have gotten quite a few more than your 10m, and we all know 25m gets more but it isn't to the extent that every 25m raider has more TF than an entire 10m raid barring funneling of gear or extreme rng.

And for the record, I think TF is a retarded idea. I would rather have seperate titles/mounts/cosmeticly different armor/special 25m only boss that has some spiffy mechanics that make use of the larger raid/etc. Ok well that last one would never happen.

[Pandacally]

I wish they had been more honest on their intent. TF isn't an incentive, it's an advantage. There's a reason they were vague and never officially revealed the drop rates.

Honestly, I believe that that are testing for themselves what would happen if they go back to the WOTLK 25/10 looting. Now they are observing how people react to this "stealth" reversal rather than losing a lot of subs by forcing a concrete reversal.

[Deleted]

Honestly, I believe that that are testing for themselves what would happen if they go back to the WOTLK 25/10 looting. Now they are observing how people react to this "stealth" reversal rather than losing a lot of subs by forcing a concrete reversal.

I don't believe this to be the truth tbh. But I miss some sort of statement on the current situation of gear disparity between the 2 raid sizes. It would suit GC to make some sort of announcement or share his thoughts on the future of raiding when it comes to 10 vs. 25.

Right now, only 25 man raiders who haven't actually raided 10 man (and no, 10 man on alts doesn't count sorry) on a serious level. The amount of RNG already involved makes it hard for many 10 man guilds to gear up at the same pace as 25 man guilds. Remove the extremes in both ends, those who never get anything and those who gets everything from both formats and you'll still see a rather big gear difference.

But with loot tables so huge in this Tier, getting the item you need is going to be even harder and even more loot will end up being DE'd by 10 man guilds. Inb4 you say "shit setup", that's BS. Any decent 10 man guild will have a spread roster class wise but you clearly can't cover everything and as such, more more loot is already being wasted in 10 man guilds. Now add the TF shit and well, GG.

[Deleted]

10m heroic progression guild are getting roundly f*c&ed by this currently. We are 2/13 heroic currently and had to draw blood from stone to get it. Last weeks full clear dropped 1 thunderforged ring - every 25m in the world got more than that from the first boss.

I guarantee you the 10m balancing has not taken into account the massive difference in iLVL we now recieve.

[Deleted]

10m heroic progression guild are getting roundly f*c&ed by this currently. We are 2/13 heroic currently and had to draw blood from stone to get it. Last weeks full clear dropped 1 thunderforged ring - every 25m in the world got more than that from the first boss.

I guarantee you the 10m balancing has not taken into account the massive difference in iLVL we now recieve.

Including Bonusrolls....we got like 13 items alone from council yesterday.....i got 3 Thunderforged items out of 6 bonusrolls in my 25m raid.... its definitly worth lootwise to go back 25m

[Deleted]

Including Bonusrolls....we got like 13 items alone from council yesterday.....i got 3 Thunderforged items out of 6 bonusrolls in my 25m raid.... its definitly worth lootwise to go back 25m

If you are happy with that, then you are pretty confused. This change makes 10m a lot harder than 25m. Enjoy your nerfed loot collection

[Pandacally]

10m heroic progression guild are getting roundly f*c&ed by this currently. We are 2/13 heroic currently and had to draw blood from stone to get it. Last weeks full clear dropped 1 thunderforged ring - every 25m in the world got more than that from the first boss.

I guarantee you the 10m balancing has not taken into account the massive difference in iLVL we now recieve.

On ptr testing, 10m und 25m HC scaling was to the same itemlevel.... so yeah

[Draahl]

12/12 normal 10 man here, we have seen 6 thunderforged so far(ive gotten 2 yay!). Feels RNG as usual :P

[Kesandri]

I wonder if this will make guilds go back to 25-man?

Yep, and will cause a lot of players to stop playing, ie those who actually enjoy 10 man raiding having finally it being made equal to 25 for it only to be downgraded again.

This change I know will only be the start of thing's to come, and if this is indeed correct it will be the end of my playtime along with half of my guild too. They need to realize that there are actually people who 'choose' to play 10 man raiding and still want to compete within the raid environment. If they dont want it to be this way then remove 10 man all together and stop wasting time on both formats.

[Deleted]

17 boss kills with no TF drops, not even on bonus rolls.

[AeneasBK]

3 25 man kills, 2 bits of TF.

[Deleted]

If you are happy with that, then you are pretty confused. This change makes 10m a lot harder than 25m. Enjoy your nerfed loot collection

yes after nearly no loot at all the last raids (4month lfr weapon, just a 2p setbonus) its pretty refreshing to get something right now. Not looking back to 10 man raiding....

Ask Method if they are unhappy with 25man nerfed loot collection they recieve for their progress....

[Toobad]

I still wonder why can't they make the items just as they were back in wotlk.

The real raiders would get their appropriate loot, while the ten-man raider-wannabies would get something weaker to award their efforts and sate their hunger for epics.


On topic, I LOVE this idea of TFs. In only 2 weeks, I got 4 new items and 3 of them are TF. Hope they will keep the rate same for the raid.

[cFortyfive]

On ptr testing, 10m und 25m HC scaling was to the same itemlevel.... so yeah

Ilvl was raised to 527 or some crap for Durumu which is nowhere near what is required to get a kill.

[Deleted]

yes after nearly no loot at all the last raids (4month lfr weapon, just a 2p setbonus) its pretty refreshing to get something right now. Not looking back to 10 man raiding....

Ask Method if they are unhappy with 25man nerfed loot collection they recieve for their progress....

Having better gear for content that is tuned around the same ilvl devalues 25m raiding. It also nerfs content at an increased rate over time, which devalues it even more.

The system has been badly thought out, and poorly implemented. I do like the addition of these new items, but the balance is all wrong.

[Dubalicious]

Yep, and will cause a lot of players to stop playing, ie those who actually enjoy 10 man raiding having finally it being made equal to 25 for it only to be downgraded again.

This makes zero sense to me. You're going to quit raiding over 6 item levels that are STILL controlled heavily by RNG? Tuning accounts for expected item levels, why anybody thinks any differently I really don't understand. 10 mans are NOT at a disadvantage when you are under the EXACT same circumstances as EVERY other 10 man guild out there (with the exception of the VERY VERY few that gear up in 25's during normals - which is literally probably 1-5 guilds in the world)

[Vehlin]

This makes zero sense to me. You're going to quit raiding over 6 item levels that are STILL controlled heavily by RNG? Tuning accounts for expected item levels, why anybody thinks any differently I really don't understand. 10 mans are NOT at a disadvantage when you are under the EXACT same circumstances as EVERY other 10 man guild out there (with the exception of the VERY VERY few that gear up in 25's during normals - which is literally probably 1-5 guilds in the world)

The issue is when you're a 10m Guild competing for progression (and server firsts) with 25m guilds. 25m already had an inbuilt advantage due to a greater gear drop rate now they not only drop more gear but they drop better gear at a much greater frequency.

This will be even more pronounced going into T16 against 25m Guilds with T15 TF Heroics.

[Deleted]

The issue is when you're a 10m Guild competing for progression (and server firsts) with 25m guilds. 25m already had an inbuilt advantage due to a greater gear drop rate now they not only drop more gear but they drop better gear at a much greater frequency.

ermm theres no competition in 10 and 25m for serverfirst really since 10 mans are way better to organize then having allways a full and good rooster of 25 players...its like the worldfirstrace....10man dont really count...

Warning; Don't make this 25vs10 which is better overall thread/post. (Sonnillon)