Why are the Forsaken in the Horde, if they treasure "honor"

[Salandrin]

Thrall claims, and takes pride in the fact that the modern Horde he envisioned would be about honor and redemption. He allows the Forsaken in however, which seriously makes you question his logic. Sure the origins of Sylvanas and her followers are tragic, but just look at what they do. They torture people, force them to labor, steal lands through threats of agonizing deaths, and produce some of the worst weapons of mass destructions seen in Warcraft.

It was Thrall himself who approved of their inclusion, not Garrosh. Not only this, he has been to Undercity, and until the Wrathgate incident, he still did not mind, and even gave Sylvanas back leadership, without criticism of the horrors he witnessed. The worst he did, was place Kor'kron in UC, but even then, this hardly deterred them from their usual activities.

Sylvanas to date, does not feel remorse for her actions, and discreetly uses the New Plague to command power, and commit atrocities (Southshore).

This is just ironic, because the Horde claims they preserve honor above all else, but the Forsaken are mostly allowed to do as they please, and in many cases, you help them.

Discuss

[Deleted]

"Salandrin"

I wont even read this, waste of time, another deaf debate going to only one way, leading to nowhere.

Mod Edit: Please keep this on topic and don't make personal comments.

[Deleted]

Because it's a game?

[Salandrin]

"Salandrin"

I wont even read this, waste of time, another deaf debate going into only one way, leading to nowhere.

There's a good topic at hand. Discuss.

[Thrive]

Thrall claims, and takes pride in the fact that the modern Horde he envisioned would be about honor and redemption. He allows the Forsaken in however, which seriously makes you question his logic. Sure the origins of Sylvanas and her followers are tragic, but just look at what they do. They torture people, force them to labor, steal lands through threats of agonizing deaths, and produce some of the worst weapons of mass destructions seen in Warcraft.

It was Thrall himself who approved of their inclusion, not Garrosh. Not only this, he has been to Undercity, and until the Wrathgate incident, he still did not mind, and even gave Sylvanas back leadership, without criticism of the horrors he witnessed. The worst he did, was place Kor'kron in UC, but even then, this hardly deterred them from their usual activities.

Sylvanas to date, does not feel remorse for her actions, and discreetly uses the New Plague to command power, and commit atrocities (Southshore).

This is just ironic, because the Horde claims they preserve honor above all else, but the Forsaken are mostly allowed to do as they please, and in many cases, you help them.

Discuss

The Horde claims nothing but survival. All they wanted upon formation was a place to call home and enough resources to build said home. They were attacked by forces such as Kul'tiras, Scarlet Crusade, and other factions which deemed them monsters so they formed an alliance of convenience and protection. Thats why. They still need that protection, now more than ever.

[anabolicz]

Well warcraft 3 had alot of diffrent factions no other than humans where the alliance..
So when they made WoW they needed to put undead somewhere... and it sure does not fit with the alliance?
Would be like giving hordes the Nelfs.. totaly wrong : )

[dokilar]

where would you propose the undead align themselves? or would you just prefer the undead didnt exist as a playable faction? these sound like better options for discussion since a majority of your posts are all anti-horde

[Sýf]

There's a good topic at hand. Discuss.

If you read up on Alliance lore, would you bash the Alliance?

[Salandrin]

where would you propose the undead align themselves? or would you just prefer the undead didnt exist as a playable faction? these sound like better options for discussion since a majority of your posts are all anti-horde

It would be better if the Forsaken weren't shoved as a Horde race due to limited ideas, and featured as neutral allies or enemies.

It just makes no sense to look at the other races in the Horde, besides possibly Goblins, and look at the Forsaken

[Vaelorian]

Well warcraft 3 had alot of diffrent factions no other than humans where the alliance..
So when they made WoW they needed to put undead somewhere... and it sure does not fit with the alliance?
Would be like giving hordes the Nelfs.. totaly wrong : )

Well I asked myself this question recently.... Tell me, what is the difference between accepting a Death Knight or a "Forsaken"? Cause the difference eludes me at the moment.

By that logic we could say that the Forsaken should always have remained in the Alliance.

Other then that I think the Forsaken shoujld never have been implemented as a race for either faction. Let them be neutral/enemies for all sides.

[Salandrin]

Well I asked myself this question recently.... Tell me, what is the difference between accepting a Death Knight or a "Forsaken"? Cause the difference eludes me at the moment.

By that logic you would say that the Forsaken should always have remained in the Alliance.

Death Knights are 100% neutral now, as a collective faction, and are actually allied with the Argent Crusade

[Haven]

Nonononononono, I'm not taking this bait. Not again. No. These matters have been beaten to death in countless threads. Many times over.

[Talen]

where would you propose the undead align themselves? or would you just prefer the undead didnt exist as a playable faction? these sound like better options for discussion since a majority of your posts are all anti-horde

As a matter of fact? Yes, I don't think the Forsaken should have been playable. Especially with the storyline they actually have.

It ***might*** have worked if Blizzard had been able to go down the 'rejected and persecuted by the Alliance' route...but they didn't and really couldn't given the events in WC3 and TFT. Without that freedom, however, the Forsaken are stuck being THE bad guys of WoW, to the degree they really just lack moustaches to twirl. Plus, they really hamper what can be done with the Horde as the OP points. Out some problems.

Horde should have had Goblins and Booty Bay right from the start. Or Ogres.

EJL

[Deleted]

Salandrin, stop bringing old issues that were already debated to ad nausea.

The final conclusion of this thread will be necessity and trickery (Magatha was the one that pressed the Earthen Ring).

[Vaelorian]

Death Knights are 100% neutral now, as a collective faction, and are actually allied with the Argent Crusade

So every deathknight currently or being made is neutral? I don't think so. The knights of the ebon blade are perhaps neutral. That's a faction. DK's themselves are not a faction. Forsaken are a faction but let's not make it a difference there. There is no difference between accepting a corpse with DK skills and a corpse with various other skills.

[dokilar]

It would be better if the Forsaken weren't shoved as a Horde race due to limited ideas, and featured as neutral allies or enemies.

It just makes no sense to look at the other races in the Horde, besides possibly Goblins, and look at the Forsaken

i dont view the forsaken as a shoved horde race. it was made clear at the end of the warcraft 3 rts games that the forsaken had regained their own will and thus would play a prominent future in the warcraft world.

so now that we've determined you dont think they should be a playable race what race then would you suggest take their place?

[Vaelorian]

i dont view the forsaken as a shoved horde race. it was made clear at the end of the warcraft 3 rts games that the forsaken had regained their own will and thus would play a prominent future in the warcraft world.

so now that we've determined you dont think they should be a playable race what race then would you suggest take their place?

Why should their place be taken? Unless you feel that every faction should have an equal amount of races to choose from - but that decision would only have merit from a gaming pov.

[Deleted]

Death Knights are 100% neutral now, as a collective faction, and are actually allied with the Argent Crusade

So, the Ebon Blade are good because they aren't part of the Horde? Check.

People, lets move on, this is nothing but another Salandrin "Horde bashing" thread. How is your goblin, by the way?

[Rotted]

"Salandrin"

I wont even read this, waste of time, another deaf debate going to only one way, leading to nowhere.

The guys asking a legit discussion, (slightly biased but still), what makes me laugh is, you won't waste the time to read it, yet you took the time to bash and flame him, ironically, with no reason as you didn't read the post to see if he deserved it

[Alvito]

There's a good topic at hand. Discuss.

Seeing how you normally create flame bait posts to never return. You can't blame ppl for calling you on it. With other internet gems like

So this apparently happened (heard it through phone) and while it sounds dubious at best, he claims it really happened, and asked what he should do, so I'm asking for some suggestions now.

So he entered a donut shop, in the more shady side of LA, and upon entering, he began to look at the menu, and after about barely thirteen seconds in, a worker (apparently manager), said to "hurry the fuck up, and get out of his store." My friend asked what was his problem. After some arguing, the man responded by pulling out a kitchen knife, and said it was my friend's last chance to leave, and he promptly ran out.

He expressed his desire to take action, and I said I would get more feedback. Do you think it's worth taking action? He's not going to see him or his store again, but out of spite.

OT Both factions have some pretty loose ideas of honor. At any given time one or more of the factions from each side is doing something horrible to another race or their own ppl.