My issue with Blizzards new "gearing through LFR" game design.

[Gurbz]

I disagree. Harder raids and less catchup is a big mistake from Blizzard and will end with them losing millons of subs and changing again their design intent in the middle of the expansion.

Because that worked so well for keeping people subbed in Cata, right? Could it cost them subs? Sure I suppose. But millions? I really REALLY doubt that.

[SherbertLand]

The real problem with this system is going to be pretty obvious in 5.3, 5.4 and maybe 5.5 if we get that far.

Having to spend one week doing MSV, then another week doing MSV, HoF and ToES, followed by 2 more weeks to get to 480 ilvl, then 2-3 weeks of ToT, then 2-3 weeks of Siege of Org to get geared up is going to get old real quick.

People liked the HoT heroics because you could jump into raiding after grinding out a full set of gear. Raids don't work the same, since you really can only do them once per week. Sure, you can get more rolls with coins, but sitting in an hour long que just to get another coin chance seems pretty tedious.

It's starting to feel like they didn't want us to be geared for the last raid a day after hitting max level.

[Crashdummy]

You can now grind out large numbers of elder charms by doing the treasure room solo scenario. Using those, you should be able to gear up in LFR very quickly.

Also, honor PvP gear is ilvl 476, which should help plug holes in your gear on the way to the 480 needed to do ToT LFR.

Yeah, going to the tiny overcorwded island in your undergeared character just to have a chance for an additional RNG in an old LFR is another bad idea from Blizzard.

Those old Elder charms should be obtained doing OLD CONTENT (5.0 and 5.1), not the content that is being done by people with 60+ more ilvls than you.

And honor gear will make you miss most of your attacks because you wont have any hit/expertise. Blizzard also promised you wouldnt have to PVP for PVE and PVE for PVP anymore, a promise they have already broken.

[Deleted]

i'm still hoping for a wrath/cata style comeback, this way is too alt unfriendly that makes me think about quitting for the very first time.
basically xcept lfr if your guild isn't big enough to do alt runs you are forced to do dailies to get something with valors, lol this sucks in a way only who have a life can understand.

[Crashdummy]

No, no it won't. Millions of subs, nope. Sorry but they don't lose a million players over less catchup (especially since a catch up method is ingame. just people don't like it)

They will, they have already lost the same amount of Cata comparing both first quarters.

[kenshinag]

The OP said it was commonplace that with every patch in BC and Wrath that a 5 man came out to help gear for it. This happened at the last patch in BC with Sunwell and the ToC and ICC patches in Wrath. Otherwise you had badge gear to help you catch up or you just had to do the tiers in order, which is what Blizz is trying to accomplish again. This is not a new concept nor design.

[Crashdummy]

Because that worked so well for keeping people subbed in Cata, right? Could it cost them subs? Sure I suppose. But millions? I really REALLY doubt that.

Cata had problems that are repeated now in MoP. IN Cata they focused in 5 mans and ignored anything else, leaving those that didnt like to farm 5 mans with nothing to do.

Now they focused on dailies and scenarios and ignored everything else, leaving those that LIKED farming 5 man dungeons with nothing to do.

Meanwhile, in TBC and Wrath they gave content for both (5 man farmers and people that didnt like to farm 5 mans) and they succeeded.

Yes, millions, they already started losing the same amount that cata lost initially.

[SherbertLand]

Yeah, going to the tiny overcorwded island in your undergeared character just to have a chance for an additional RNG in an old LFR is another bad idea from Blizzard.

Those old Elder charms should be obtained doing OLD CONTENT (5.0 and 5.1), not the content that is being done by people with 60+ more ilvls than you.

And honor gear will make you miss most of your attacks because you wont have any hit/expertise. Blizzard also promised you wouldnt have to PVP for PVE and PVE for PVP anymore, a promise they have already broken.

The isle was intended to be a catchup mechanic, why would they spread their catchup mechanic out so much? It's not hard to get coins if you're actually willing to get out there and it isn't required to pvp in order to pve. If you're talking about the 2 battlegrounds required in the legendary quest, you're silly.

Stop looking at optional content as required.

[ShimmerSwirl]

Using LFR allows most players to see content they would normally miss because of gear/guild limitations. Not sure how a "reduced" raiding feature like LFR really affects "hardcore raiders". Most "hardcores" are already in raid guilds, get their gear by any means necessary, and continue to see reg/heroic content. More people than ever before are finally raiding through a raid finder and seeing content they might have otherwise missed out on.

Thats like the government printing a few trillion in currency and giving it away to everyone saying, "More people than ever are millionaires, what a amazing economy we have!"

The way Blizz does it know, raiding it greatly cheapened for everyone. LFR is not even raiding, lets be honest. And the thrill for the hardcore players is greatly reduced knowing that everyone who can click a que button can do the same things they are.

[SherbertLand]

Cata had problems that are repeated now in MoP. IN Cata they focused in 5 mans and ignored anything else, leaving those that didnt like to farm 5 mans with nothing to do.

Now they focused on dailies and scenarios and ignored everything else, leaving those that LIKED farming 5 man dungeons with nothing to do.

Meanwhile, in TBC and Wrath they gave content for both (5 man farmers and people that didnt like to farm 5 mans) and they succeeded.

Yes, millions, they already started losing the same amount that cata lost initially.

There are like 11 5 mans. What do you mean they left you with nothing to do?

You just want 5 mans that drop epics.

[rogueMatthias]

In what objective way is it better for the game? Does it make more people happy? Does it work better at making a profit?

I've stopped even trying to argue. There was a time when every day people would keep posting a 20min video on here explaining how it's better for casuals to not see any endgame at all because the "mystery" makes them want to keep playing and makes it more fun :/

On topic -

I actually agree to some extent. 1st tier is fine, if you hit 90 you can use all your blue heroics plus a few LFR drops and Raid... but NOW in the second tier if you hit 90, there's a real barrier.

You can't raid in heroic dungeon gear, so heroics are only there to get your ilvl up to get into LFR and to get valor, there's no point running them for loot beyone this. BUT, you only have LFR random drops to actually gear, and if you cap valor each week, you can't even buy a new epic a week. (I KNOW you can get the reduced price old tier, but why would you, rather than just saving up another week to get a much higher lvl piece?)

It's a lot easier to come by charms and the drop rates make it a little easier, but if you want to gear up faster you still really don't have the option. You could spend 24 hours a day, 7 days a week playing but you're gated to how much you can actually progress at all in that Week time period. If you're not lucky with drops, it could take you months to get raid ready no matter how much effort you put in.

Maybe old valor gear should cost justice now, maybe you should be able to get more loot from LFR if you keep on running it, or maybe the Valor cap should be higher.

tldr: If people really want to put the time and effort into gearing as quick as they can it would be good as an option, but they're artifically gated to how much they can progress each week no matter how much time and effort they put in, and I think this is set too low at the moment.

[Crashdummy]

The isle was intended to be a catchup mechanic, why would they spread their catchup mechanic out so much? It's not hard to get coins if you're actually willing to get out there and it isn't required to pvp in order to pve. If you're talking about the 2 battlegrounds required in the legendary quest, you're silly.

Stop looking at optional content as required.

The isle purpose is NOT a cath up mechanic. The isle's purpose is to provide content for those that liek doing dailies and to give new content for those that dont raid. They MIXED catch up mechanic with that, which is why i thing is a bad decision.

Catch up mechanics are for those that DIDNT play the previous content, so they are not as geared as the people that is doing the isle.

The PVP part is because PVP is beign used as a cacth up mechanic for PVE by almost everyone, since its the only way to have a reliable catch up. Then you have the DPSers doing 10k damage in LFR because they miss most of their attacks.

---------- Post added 2013-03-19 at 04:08 PM ----------

There are like 11 5 mans. What do you mean they left you with nothing to do?

You just want 5 mans that drop epics.

There are less new 5 man than any other previous expansion. And they announced they wont do any more in the whole MoP.

[Mordredofmia]

While I understand your general concern, you are embellishing quite a bit. I hit 90 on my DK this weekend and had gear good enough to run the intro LFR in less than 20 hours from hitting 90. Between crafted gear, crafted PvP gear, auction house items, a couple of dungeons, and finishing quest chains while leveling that is all it took.

It's just as easy to be LFR raid ready the same day you hit 90...people keep saying that part has magically changed. When the game launched it was a huge problem, but it just isn't anymore. Now you are completely right that you still have to depend on RNG to get up to current content, which sucks. For all I know my DK will be stuck in the lowest LFR tier for over a month because I have bad luck, who knows.

That's the part that's awful, but let's not embellish the intial stages anymore...we're past that.

But you're wrong, sadly. Look at all the things you listed. Auction House, Crafted gear, crafted PVP gear. That's fine and dandy for alts if you have the gold. But what about a new player like I was in the time frame I described in my post. When I hit 80, epic flight was something I had to grind out for. Gold wasn't in abundance. I didn't have a bunch of profession whores feeding me gold. And lemme say from experience, on my rogue and my druid I finished every zone in MoP and that did not give me enough gear to walk into LFR

Everything you listed is not something a new player or a returning player without a gold bankroll has access to. Check this, I am trying to form a raid group because a lot of my local IRL friends play. In ICC I did the same thing so we could all play together. When I needed a DPS, I texted my friend and said "Stop running an alt and lets grind dungeons so you can come raid with us." He did, we did, and now my raid had a DPS. When I wanted to play with my brother, I called him and said "Hey, lets grind heroics and get you in enough gear to walk into ICC and tank for us.". We did and I did. This happened many times. In Cata we lost healers but someone had a shaman they were itching to play fully decked out in gear good enough to start with us without really holding us back. So boom, he switched toons and we continued to play.

Now in MOP, I am in the same situation. I called my brother who just got a computer back online and said "Hey man lets raid together like old times". So he gets his monk to 90 and boom. Now he has to run daily quests, now he has to run dungeons to get into LFR, now he can't get any good gear with valor because it's all behind dailies. He's been running LFR for two months and hasn't gotten enough drops to get into ToT LFR. He is a full time student with a job so he doesn't have time to log on and do daily quests and get his reputations up. And the worst part is all of the rest of us are geared up and honestly the idea of running old LFR shit we already did once and will have to do on our alts isn't appealing to us, it isn't even appealing to my brother who just wants to jump into ToT with him. So his only option is to go it alone or drag us along with him, which we're mostly willing to do but he isn't even willing to ask because he knows and we know LFR is boring as hell even when have a shot a gear, but without the gear carrot it's just unbearable garbage. He's a low key player, he mostly played to raid. He doesn't have 4-5 hours a day to spend running dailies scenarios and heroics. He never has. He has no gold, so crafted gear is out of the question for him.

All of the things you listed to paint my complaints as unreasonable are not options for him or any other player returning to the game or heaven forbid, coming in for the very first time.

And, all of the hurdles they put in gearing have cut my game in half. Because where I used to have 3-4 raid ready characters and I could hit pugs all week long on, now it's a struggle to even have two because of all the garbage people are happy to lap up and call content slowing me down so Blizzard doesn't have to spend money on the game, despite me paying $15 a month

[kenshinag]

Yeah, going to the tiny overcorwded island in your undergeared character just to have a chance for an additional RNG in an old LFR is another bad idea from Blizzard.

Those old Elder charms should be obtained doing OLD CONTENT (5.0 and 5.1), not the content that is being done by people with 60+ more ilvls than you.

And honor gear will make you miss most of your attacks because you wont have any hit/expertise. Blizzard also promised you wouldnt have to PVP for PVE and PVE for PVP anymore, a promise they have already broken.

I dont understand your first statement so i cant comment on that. Doing the loot scenario can be done with blue gear since you fight nothing that hits harder than a leveling mob. Honor gear has hit/expertise on it, the resil/power is added after the budget. You will not miss any of your attacks if you reforge the gear the same way you would dungeon gear. You don't have to PVP. You can do heroics til 460 the go to MSV til 470 then HoF and ToES til 480 then ToT and you're caught up. No PVP needed whatsoever.

[SherbertLand]

The isle purpose is NOT a cath up mechanic. The isle's purpose is to provide content for those that liek doing dailies and to give new content for those that dont raid. They MIXED catch up mechanic with that, which is why i thing is a bad decision.

Catch up mechanics are for those that DIDNT play the previous content, so they are not as geared as the people that is doing the isle.

The PVP part is because PVP is beign used as a cacth up mechanic for PVE by almost everyone, since its the only way to have a reliable catch up. Then you have the DPSers doing 10k damage in LFR because they miss most of their attacks.

---------- Post added 2013-03-19 at 04:08 PM ----------



There are less new 5 man than any other previous expansion. And they announced they wont do any more in the whole MoP.

The isle has 476 epics for sale, you're not going to get killed constantly while doing dailies, my 458 ret set doesn't seem to have much of a problem and you can't blame blizzard for forcing you to do pvp when you're choosing to get epics that weren't intended for pve. You can get an endless amount of elder charms which means you can get an endless amount of chances at loot. Rng is still a thing, but this is World of Warcraft. Rng has always been a thing.

Don't confuse not getting anymore time spent on it for not having content at all. You want new 5 mans for the same reason Blizzard doesn't want to make new 5 mans - people get bored of them too quickly.

[-Superman-]

Thats like the government printing a few trillion in currency and giving it away to everyone saying, "More people than ever are millionaires, what a amazing economy we have!"

The way Blizz does it know, raiding it greatly cheapened for everyone. LFR is not even raiding, lets be honest. And the thrill for the hardcore players is greatly reduced knowing that everyone who can click a que button can do the same things they are.

Actually, it is more like a video game where you are rewarded with gear just for making an effort in a "raid". There is no real world comparison for this. LFR gear is only on par for LFR. You have to craft or Raid for reg/heroic raid gear. An LFR runner will not get geared enough to get into 25M Heroic content. So they, in essence are NOT doing the same thing. Not sure why so many people have such issue with a simple feature that made raiding convenient for the avg person.

[SherbertLand]

But you're wrong. Look at all the things you listed. Auction House, Crafted gear, crafted PVP gear. That's fine and dandy for alts. But what about a new player like I was in the time frame I described in my post. When I hit 80, epic flight was something I had to grind out for. Gold wasn't in abundance. I didn't have a bunch of profession whores feeding me gold.

Everything you listed is not something a new player or a returning player without a gold bankroll has access to.

You can go out and farm if you want to, they can't drag you to the gear, you have to move on your own too.

[Kelimbror]

But you're wrong. Look at all the things you listed. Auction House, Crafted gear, crafted PVP gear. That's fine and dandy for alts. But what about a new player like I was in the time frame I described in my post. When I hit 80, epic flight was something I had to grind out for. Gold wasn't in abundance. I didn't have a bunch of profession whores feeding me gold.

Everything you listed is not something a new player or a returning player without a gold bankroll has access to.

I bought each piece of PvP gear for 90 gold. 90 gold. I made like 6K minimum just leveling to 90 and have no money on my DK from other sources since it is a horde toon when all my others are alliance. I'm not sure why you're talking about level 80.

[Arganaut]

Total agreement with OP.
MOP is not friendly to alts ... I mean at all.
I have a surplus of justice I just don't know what to spend on.
Faction gear is largely irrelevant now 5.2 is out.
I don't see a single valid reason why current valor gear can't be made available for justice.

[slime]

Is it just me or is Crashdummy's opinion the core destruction that has been wrecked on the wow I know some out there still miss, luv and wish would come back. Basically - if it's too hard for me, I don't want it in the game because you might be able to get something i can't. Blizzard massively F'ed up when they gave that theoretical baby its bottle.