5.2 Trinket Discussion

[jtmzac]

I don't think its fair to only look at the average stats of a rppm trinket. Its like looking at the average of all fire parses.

Rppm can have really good rng sometimes and really bad other times. If you don't like that then just use a non-rppm trinket.

[Rinoa]

Aye, I have noticed that my DPS in the opener easily varies by 100k depending on if my RPPM trinkets activate at the same time or not when I am setting up for my first combustion.

e:/ For clarification, this is just after wipes so they don't always have time to reset their cheating mechanic just yet as it seems to be a bit slow sometimes.

[Deleted]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but ain't the average of LFR Wushoolay's like ~6k int for 20 secs/proc? And you compared static int+ proc of relic just against the proc of wushoolays?

So the real value of Wushoolay's should be around 0,16(taken from your WoL)*6088,5=974.16 int PLUS 1218 hit, which takes it to around 1750-1900(depending on your current gear) int on value

But still sample size of 2100 seconds is WAY too low to smooth out all the rng.

Hello mgreenthump,

You are right, its 6088,5 the average of LFR wushoolay's.

Can you explain me why the "1218 hit" converts to int value?

[elpadrino293]

Aye, I have noticed that my DPS in the opener easily varies by 100k depending on if my RPPM trinkets activate at the same time or not when I am setting up for my first combustion.

e:/ For clarification, this is just after wipes so they don't always have time to reset their cheating mechanic just yet as it seems to be a bit slow sometimes.

run back slower

[willemh]

run back slower

How slow exactly? Anyone tested this?

[elpadrino293]

How slow exactly? Anyone tested this?

"Calculate the proc frequency as normal. Based on that, you can figure out the expected average proc interval. We also now keep track of time since the last successful proc (this is different from the time since last chance to proc), capped at 1000 sec. Multiply the proc chance by MAX(1, 1+((TimeSinceLastSuccessfulProc/AverageProcInterval)-1.5)*3). For example, if a proc has an average proc interval of 45 sec, and it’s been 72 sec since your last successful proc, you’ll get a 1.3x multiplier to your proc chance. If you’ve been out of combat for a few min, and it’s been 5 min since your last successful proc, you’ll get a whopping 16.5x multiplier to your proc chance."

the longer the better

[chrisnumbers]

So basically no one knows what's best.
sigh

[Deleted]

Just concider than all r-ppm trinket will be better at 522 and after.

[willemh]

"Calculate the proc frequency as normal. Based on that, you can figure out the expected average proc interval. We also now keep track of time since the last successful proc (this is different from the time since last chance to proc), capped at 1000 sec. Multiply the proc chance by MAX(1, 1+((TimeSinceLastSuccessfulProc/AverageProcInterval)-1.5)*3). For example, if a proc has an average proc interval of 45 sec, and it’s been 72 sec since your last successful proc, you’ll get a 1.3x multiplier to your proc chance. If you’ve been out of combat for a few min, and it’s been 5 min since your last successful proc, you’ll get a whopping 16.5x multiplier to your proc chance."

the longer the better

Quite annoying tbh, forcing people to wait 5 minutes after each wipe before they can do max dps. Isnt this the whole reason they made every cooldown longer then 3 minutes reset after each fight in the first place? Why not make it 3 minutes, quite inconsistent to make trinkets (and tbh that 8k intellect proc is a bigger deal then many cooldowns are) take 5 minutes to 'reset'.

Oh well, im certainly not going to wait 5 minutes after each wipe, but it is annoying to know your gimping yourself by not doing so.

[Imnick]

It's not "5 mins per wipe to get a proc" it is "5 mins to get 16.5 times the normal proc chance"

[mrgreenthump]

Hello mgreenthump,

Can you explain me why the "1218 hit" converts to int value?

Well it doesn't directly, but it for most people out there, we aren't hard capped with hit before reforge, at least after we reforge the overcap hit to other secondary stats. So the hit on the trinket equals to 40%(reforge) of your best secondary stat, and 60%(free's up to hit reforges) of you worst or 2nd to worst secondary stat. And depending on your values you can compare those stats to your int value.

[willemh]

It's not "5 mins per wipe to get a proc" it is "5 mins to get 16.5 times the normal proc chance"

The thing is, you need that increased proc chance, without it you'll have to pray to the gods for the trinket to line up with your initial combustion.

Looking at the formula it seems to be far worse actually. I'm not a math genius so correct me if I'm wrong.

My current trinket (breath of the hydra) has a 0,55 RPPM, this gives it a average proc interval of 109 seconds (1/0.55*60) not 45 seconds as ghostcrawler used in his example. So the increase in procrate you'll see after being out of combat for 5 minutes (assuming you had a trinket proc before wiping) is only:

(1,1+((300/109)-1,5)*3) = 4,85

If you corpserun within 2 minutes (which is far more realistic) you won't see any increase, since the formula is negative after 2 minutes:

(1,1+((120/109)-1,5)*3) = -0,1

So especially for the trinkets with low RPPM like Breath of the Hydra and Wushoolay's Final Choice the change they made is barely noticable. Its still gonna be a big gamble if you can line up your breath of the hydra with your initial combustion.

Looking at my own playstyle I delay my initial combustion untill I have about 5 seconds left on my LotC proc (which always procs instantly at the start of the fight). So if Breath of the Hyrdra doesnt proc within about 15-20 seconds of the pull I combust anyway. Looking over my logs I see that only about 30% of the time Breath of the Hydra is up during my initial combustion.

A 'ensured proc' at the start of each raid encounter would really be a big quality of life improvement when using these trinkets. What is the point of making a system to reduce RNG and then put a 1000 seconds cap on it (who on earth remains out of combat for over 16 minutes during a raid?). In my eyes every raid wipe should 'reset' the the trinkets proc chance to its highest value, just like any long cooldown is reset after a fight. For now you wont be able to line up the trinket with your initial combustion at least half of the time, ifnot more. The latest changes made to the RPPM trinkets didnt really improve the situation, especially for those trinkets with a low RPPM.

[elpadrino293]

Quite annoying tbh, forcing people to wait 5 minutes after each wipe before they can do max dps. Isnt this the whole reason they made every cooldown longer then 3 minutes reset after each fight in the first place? Why not make it 3 minutes, quite inconsistent to make trinkets (and tbh that 8k intellect proc is a bigger deal then many cooldowns are) take 5 minutes to 'reset'.

Oh well, im certainly not going to wait 5 minutes after each wipe, but it is annoying to know your gimping yourself by not doing so.

they're not forcing you to do anything. 5 min was an arbitrary number they chose for their example. the cap is 1000 sec or 16.67 min, but no one would ever wait that long to guarentee a proc on the pull. and more often than not, it isn't like your trinket will proc just as you are wiping. it it procs two min before you wipe, and then 3min to get the raid set up again before you pull, there is your 5 min and 16.5x multipler.

someone should write a mod calculating the proc chance of trinkets so that it can be displayed in the UI. if your trinkets are not proccing, you will see that your proc chance is rising, and perhaps you would get a better idea when to expect a proc and whether or not use your other cooldowns or save them.

ie. you have a small chance to proc a trinket while having a medium-to-large ignite on the target with combustion available. in this situation, if no trinkets were going to come up, it may be beneficial to use combustion on that ignite to keep the spell on cooldown for more efficient use. but if you haven't procced a trinket in awhile, and the proc chance is moderately high, perhaps you should wait until the trinkets do proc before using a combustion.

[jcdommo]

run back slower

Heh, this is definitely the way to handle it. If you have fast wipe recovery/pulls, you won't have realppm procs up every time. That's the breaks. I find ~5 minutes is usually sufficient for them to be back up though (as has been mentioned).

[elpadrino293]

What is the point of making a system to reduce RNG and then put a 1000 seconds cap on it (who on earth remains out of combat for over 16 minutes during a raid?). In my eyes every raid wipe should 'reset' the the trinkets proc chance to its highest value, just like any long cooldown is reset after a fight. For now you wont be able to line up the trinket with your initial combustion at least half of the time, ifnot more. The latest changes made to the RPPM trinkets didnt really improve the situation, especially for those trinkets with a low RPPM.

the point of the system was that the RPPM trinkets were not as predictable as internal cooldown trinkets are. perhaps their goal was to NOT guarantee procs on the pull. kind of shitty indeed, but it does prevent very large amounts of procs aligning on the initial pull. take a tailor/engineer, as example... with all the INT procs, it is over 26.7k INT in procs on the pull [(7333+7333+4000+1650+2000+1920)*1.05*1.05] which is roughly 10% crit before critical mass on top of all that spell power, and the damage only gets more out of control when coupled with time warp/troll racial/tricks/banner. years ago they tried to stay away from this behavior of MASSIVE stat gains by allowing only one ON USE trinket to be used at a time. this system is a far better solution than only allowing one trinket to proc at a time.

the procs on the trinkets are not long cooldowns, and quite frankly aren't in the same category and shouldn't be reset. if they go that route, they might as well reset all the cooldowns, not just the long ones. i'd like it, i'd even prefer it, but it doesn't fit into the RPPM system. they put a bit of a safety net in, you can choose to use it or not. no one is forcing you to wait.

the recent change was to RPPM system was to attempt to make it less predictable and to prevent long periods of time without procs, not to guarantee procs on the pull. i know the grass is always greener on the other side, but we still can get back-to-back procs which could never happen with ICD trinkets. far too often we focus on the negatives.

[Kurze]

After an evening combining Wushoo with Cha-ye, my only real gripe comes from the manner in which they both use RPPM in terms of one needing to ramp up and the other being all in your face from the off. As has been discussed above, if you take long enough to wipe then you're all but guaranteed to proc your trinkets on the pull. Ideally you'd want Cha-ye to proc maybe 10-15 seconds AFTER Wushoo, as it then coincides with the most powerful part of the trinkets uptime. Far more beneficial than them proccing together and Cha-ye supplementing the lower Electrified stacks. For this reason I might play with Hydra and Cha-ye together once I have them, but there is something I like about Wushoo that I can't quite put my finger on.

[mrgreenthump]

After an evening combining Wushoo with Cha-ye, my only real gripe comes from the manner in which they both use RPPM in terms of one needing to ramp up and the other being all in your face from the off. As has been discussed above, if you take long enough to wipe then you're all but guaranteed to proc your trinkets on the pull. Ideally you'd want Cha-ye to proc maybe 10-15 seconds AFTER Wushoo, as it then coincides with the most powerful part of the trinkets uptime. Far more beneficial than them proccing together and Cha-ye supplementing the lower Electrified stacks. For this reason I might play with Hydra and Cha-ye together once I have them, but there is something I like about Wushoo that I can't quite put my finger on.

This is the exact problem with Wushoolay's, it doesn't line up with any other of our procs on pulls as Hydra does. So we end up needing 3 trinkets to be "BiS", Hydra + cha-ye's for "Lust on pull" situations and Wushoolay's + cha-ye's if the fight is super long/start dps is not important. Not that it is a huge difference overall, but still there is a difference^^

[elpadrino293]

For this reason I might play with Hydra and Cha-ye together once I have them, but there is something I like about Wushoo that I can't quite put my finger on.

i plan to use hydra & cha-ye as it simply seems more practical. but i cannot deny how attractive all the int on wushoolay is for the last few seconds neither.

[willemh]

the point of the system was that the RPPM trinkets were not as predictable as internal cooldown trinkets are. perhaps their goal was to NOT guarantee procs on the pull.

Yet I know I am gimping myself if I dont take a 16 minute break between each pull, and that sucks.

Imagine Ra-Den has such a strict enrage that guild keep wiping at 5%. Then they will never, ever, use their 30 attempts without everyone having an (near) ensured proc at the start. And so they will be waiting 16 minutes before each pull. Its that simple.

[Erolian]

Yet I know I am gimping myself if I dont take a 16 minute break between each pull, and that sucks.

Imagine Ra-Den has such a strict enrage that guild keep wiping at 5%. Then they will never, ever, use their 30 attempts without everyone having an (near) ensured proc at the start. And so they will be waiting 16 minutes before each pull. Its that simple.

All this does is prove Blizzard failed in their design since they wanted it to be random. I'd bet money that they will hot fix that in some way if enough guilds started to do it. Sadly I don't think the hotfix would be the removal of the RPPM