The Cult of the Forsaken

[Deleted]

So, did you get withdrawal symptoms when we lacked a "Sylvanas is evil" thread for a week or so?
The Forsaken now aren't that cruel, do not hate the living and Sylvanas cares about her people just as much as any other leader.

We have enough threads on this subject already and you could better necro one of those instead of creating a new one every single week.

Have you actually read the article?

[Haven]

So why do the Forsaken revere Sylvanas so much? It has been pointed out very often that the difference between her and the Lich King is not big. When asked about that difference, the only thing even she can come up with is, "we serve the Horde." But if what she is doing is basically the same, what does it matter who the master is?

1. She gets shit done.
2. It helps her people a lot.
3. She personally helps her people on the battlefield. A lot.
4. Her people have the freedom of will.
5. Her people aren't fucking shit up all around the globe, they're securing their own little kingdom.

The Forsaken are the Forsaken, because they regained their free will. Yet they are told, right from the moment they are "reborn" that they should revere and serve someone they don't even know. "I created you, I am your master." You would think that there would be more characters like Lilian Voss.

Fail. You obviously have no idea what you're talking about, you haven't played their starting zone. No one forces worship. You're free to either go back to death, or be protected by your kin, or wander away and try to survive alone. Not everyone who wanders away can survive on their own, not everyone is a voilet-flame-superkiller like Voss. And those who go against the Forsaken despite their state share the fate of Marshal Redpath and his rotbrains band. And if you paid any attention when reading her short story, she told Garrosh that she "no longer saw them as arrows in her quiver". But I'm sure you only saw what you wanted to see.

From an ordinary Bill the Ordinary Forsaken's POV, even if he learned that she keeps them as a shield between herself and death, so what? Her motivation actually makes her care much more about her people. Isn't any king's army a bulwark between him and death? It's only logical, even if you don't want to admit it. Besides, she's been at the spearhead of most Forsaken conflicts, overseeing things personally or even leading the charge. When was the last time Wrynn dragged his hypocritical ass out of his palace, aside from that time when he taught Tyrande elementary basics of common sense?

On the article: bah, a Brujah. Impressionable anarchist kid; "So I rolled Cynwise, a Forsaken Warlock, shuddered at my shilouette on the screen, and started questing" /facepalm. He makes Putress an example - seriously? He's as indicative of the Forsaken in general as Arthas is of humans. "Who were you in your previous life that you can be so calm about your current situation?" - how about "a calm person with a will to live despite all odds"? About Sylvanas: "But who is she to me, the newly-risen dead?" - she's your queen, blockhead. Kings and queens are supposed to be revered. Especially when they build the kingdom from zero and give you everything you have at the start - your un-life, and a chance to exist and do wahtever yuo didn't have time to do until you died. "No matter how the Forsaken spin it, they are mentally and spiritually still humans (or elves)" - he contradicts himself. "They choose to return to slavery" - what does he base that upon? They are more of a tight family - a very ruthless and vengeful gamily with great love to their Big Mama.

[Venziir]

So... You use a persons blog, which compares the Forsaken to Clan Brujah from VTM to prove that the in-game Forsaken are evil? Uhmmm... Okay.

---------- Post added 2013-03-26 at 10:10 AM ----------

Have you actually read the article?

It's a blog, not an article.

[Deleted]

The souls of the undead (Forsaken, PC death knights, ghouls, etc.) are imperfectly attached to their bodies; the dark magic that sustains them is a buffer that prevents their souls from properly joining with their bodies. This is why undead feel only faint sensations of pain or discomfort from most physical stimuli, and why the Light is so painful to their existence. (Source)

I don't see how that makes his theory impossible.

[iscalio]

Frankly, it's hard to judge them with our own standards of morality.

There can only be one standard of morality (and everyone needs to be judged by it) if any judging is supposed to make any sense at all. If morality were truly relative and changeable then good and evil are illusions. This might very well be the opinion of the majority of Forsaken, but that doesn't mean it is necessarily the truth. Moral relativism equals moral nihilism.

Well they all committed atrocities while as scourge so i would say its safe to assume the light has abandoned them and they it know it

If they committed said actrocities while being mind-controlled by the Scourge, then "they" did not commit them at all. They were not responsible for their Scourge existence. "The Light" will know that.
They are however responsible for what they are doing now, and saying "hey, we've been abandoned anyway, so fuck it" is a bad justification. Leonid the Revered is a good example that not all Forsaken view themselves as being abandoned by the light, by the way. Redemption is a certainly an available path for them.

[Deleted]

So... You use a persons blog, which compares the Forsaken to Clan Brujah from VTM to prove that the in-game Forsaken are evil? Uhmmm... Okay.

---------- Post added 2013-03-26 at 10:10 AM ----------



It's a blog, not an article.

He uses the brujah to show that the Forsaken don't have a justification for doing evil things. Brujah can say "I have to feed so that I don't succumb to the rage and kill people". Do evil things to prevent greater evil things from happening. But when you have no excuse for the evil things you do other than that you enjoy it, then that excuse goes out the window. The evil things the Forsaken have done are apparent and don't have to be discussed. Don't derail this thread.

[TheDangerZone]

We just seriously can't keep explaining to you the appeal of the forsaken, it's like you can't even understand them theme wise. But what's more obnoxious is that you are actively bringing anti-forsaken propaganda, and to what purpose?

[Verdugo]

In case it should be true, it's even more of a crime that they turn other into undead. I think there needs to happen a change with the Forsaken. It's interesting having them as a race right now, and their Cataclysm starting experience is great, but they would be so much more awesome when they were this damned race that fought for justice instead of committing those crimes. Maybe Lilian Voss could be a character that brings that change and even opposes Sylvanas as a leader.

No. If anything, Forsaken should be even more alien to the moral standards set by humans.

[Venziir]

He uses the brujah to show that the Forsaken don't have a justification for doing evil things. Brujah can say "I have to feed so that I don't succumb to the rage and kill people". Do evil things to prevent greater evil things from happening. But when you have no excuse for the evil things you do other than that you enjoy it, then that excuse goes out the window. The evil things the Forsaken have done are apparent and don't have to be discussed. Don't derail this thread.

There's no derailment present. It's a personal blog with personal opinions and analogies, not a scientific, blizzard aproved journal - yet you treat it like it is.

Besides, that Brujah example is not evil either - it's perfect logic. Besides, being a Brujah Ghoul isn't that bad. Nor are Brujah vampires evil, they are chaotic vampires with ADHD really. The antitribu Brujah are somewhat evil though, but mostly because they don't give a fuck.

[iscalio]

No. If anything, Forsaken should be even more alien to the moral standards set by humans.

That might be interesting from the viewpoint of storytelling, but it would also make it less and less sensible to have the Forsaken in the Horde. If they truly are completely amoral monsters to whom concepts such as kindness, justice of honesty are completely alien as you put it, then they fit in even worse with their allies.

[Verdugo]

That might be interesting from the viewpoint of storytelling, but it would also make it less and less sensible to have the Forsaken in the Horde. If they truly are completely amoral monsters to whom concepts such as kindness, justice of honesty are completely alien as you put it, then they fit in even worse with their allies.

Thats the thing. Horde is holding their story back.

Every time I see forsaken NPC with horde tabard, it looks out of place.

[Aquamonkey]

I don't see how that makes his theory impossible.

Her soul becomes whole in WC hell. Why would "the parts of their soul that are more capable of kindess [sic] and compassion go on to whatever afterlife there is" be in WC hell? Or the good parts of her soul were chilling out in WC heaven until the rest of her soul was released, then everything got sucked into WC hell? And then she had no memories from the good parts of her soul from wherever they were hiding all this time.

[Verazh]

I found this, which seems to be a bit old, but is worth the read

http://cynwise.posterous.com/on-the-forsaken

I've always asked myself when playing a Forsaken character, why are people so obsessed with Sylvanas. Especially after reading her short story it's clear that she doesn't care about her own people and only uses them to postpone her own fate of eternal suffering.

After reading this post, how can it not be clear how cruel the Forsaken are, how they do to others what has been done to them and how much they hate the living.

so what? If you dont want to play them, dont play them. I dont see the point of the thread.

[Aquamonkey]

Have you actually read the article?

It's a blog of some random guy coming up with conspiracy theories by reading between the lines of Blizzard's bad storytelling. It's amusing and a bit fun, but nobody should really be taking it seriously.

[Verdugo]

so what? If you dont want to play them, dont play them. I dont see the point of the thread.

He is trying to convince others not to play them.

Little does he know that by painting them without morale or empathy, they will atract other type of players.

[Deleted]

We just seriously can't keep explaining to you the appeal of the forsaken, it's like you can't even understand them theme wise. But what's more obnoxious is that you are actively bringing anti-forsaken propaganda, and to what purpose?

That's exactly what a member of a cult would say. I guess the article was right about that.

[Venziir]

That's exactly what a member of a cult would say. I guess the article was right about that.

And that's exactly what a selfrighteous nutcase with a tinfoil hat would say. Move over Fox Mulder....

Oh and it's still not an article.

[iscalio]

so what? If you dont want to play them, dont play them. I dont see the point of the thread.

It's a thread discussing as aspect of the World of Warcraft in a forum dedicated to discussing the World of Warcraft. One might think the point of the thread would be easy to get. You can certainly question its creativity or quality, but once you begin missing its point you should wonder why you even hang out here.

[Verdugo]

That's exactly what a member of a cult would say. I guess the article was right about that.

I find it funny when someone that sees light as ultimate good calls other cultists.

[Deleted]

I see how the usual suspects come in here and derail this topic, so please stop doing that if you're not actually interested in discussing the linked article.