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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ehrenpanzer View Post
    Council and Megara are very easy compared to Horridon...and with Uld and ICC, it was the ILLUSION of choice that appealed to people. Sure they all had to die, but suppose your pally healer with Val couldnt make it that night...oh..cant did Mimi, so lets do the other 3 for tonight and come back tomorrow when hes on...in ToT style its: pally with val isnt on...oh well..call it for the night...(thats a pretty basic, if exaggerated illustration, but I think you get the point)

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-27 at 09:35 PM ----------



    oh how I love professor farnsworth...I mean..putricide...
    That's cause Magaera was nerfed..... Council is a clusterfuck and if you can't figure out how to dps the right things, interrupt, dispel and move accordingly, I doubt Council will be much easier. Not saying you as in you personally but people in general.

    I'll dare say, that no Normal modes in their current state requires one specific class in order to be defeated. If you want it as easy as it gets, then sure, you can't raid without a Disc Priest. I guess that's why a guild on my own server runs 10 Disc Priest in a 10 man raid..... But for any decent guild that cleared Heroic T14 or even just Normal T14 with some Heroics, I don't think this Tier needs to be nerfed on Normal. All of the Normal bosses can be killed without a certain class, if the people in the raid knows how to play and aren't completely undergeared.

    Is it nice to be able to BoP the tanks on Horridon? Ofc it is but you don't need it. My own guild killed Horridon without a single Paladin in the raid. People seem to find excuses or reasons for their failure, be it flawed game design, bad tuning or lack of X class, when it in most cases is a L2P issue. That may seem harsh but I say again, if you can't kill Normal Horridon, you won't have much of a chance on some of the later bosses. And in stead of crying for nerfs, people should go back to T14 Heroic and get some more gear or they should accept that ToT might be a bit of an overreach for them, until it gets nerfed.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-27 at 11:51 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Didn't realize it was that low. That's fine continue to advocate this position. Next tier can be just as insanely stupid and we'll have sub 10k guilds clearing bosses with less and less players raiding normals and then eventually maybe good bye normals? Certainly good bye a bunch of decent guilds with players from a mixed range of skills. It's the middle class of raiding. Being crushed or shoved into LFR.

    When we start to see sub 10k participation for these bosses and raids and it's all because of their tuning will you tell me that ToT was still the best raid since ulduar? Best for whom? well apparently the tiny minority of players who run it. The same minority that dwindles in numbers more and more each tier.
    I get your point, I actually do. However I don't agree with you. The middle class of raiding you say. Another think that might happen, is that several people who chose a middle class guild (raiding wise ofc), will look for a better guild in order to progress. Many people have the skill to play at a higher level than they're currently doing but with the many new 10 man guilds forming left and right, so many quality players prefer to raid with their friends - even if their friends aren't as skilled as they are. But that's a choice one must make and not about the game being overtuned.

    And the "decent" guilds you're talking about, if they're half decent they should rather recruit better people, up their standards, put in more effort and realize that carrying a good friend who sucks at raiding, isn't going to get them anywhere. If they then disband, that just mean that the few good raiders will find another and better guild. And that's not a bad thing, is it?

  2. #62
    Again, Horridon is only overtuned if you think dispelling, interrupting, and target switching is beyond the ken of normal mode raiders. I, for one, don't think it is. You can literally have ZERO poison debuffs go out on the 2nd door, if you know how to interrupt and assign interrupts.

  3. #63
    The Patient edlike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jakmax View Post
    This is such horseshit. I'm a normal mode raider. I've already cleared the last tier on normal multiple times. Why in the world should I have to go back, and do HEROIC mode to progress on NORMAL mode. Here's how normal mode progression has and should continue to work. Tier x normal ----> Tier x+1 normal. Not this Tier x normal ---> Tier x Heroic ---> Tier x+1 normal bullshit. If that's honestly the intent, then I see it as nothing but blizzard trying to keep people playing by making old content necessary well past when it should be.

    All that being said, horridon was nerfed, after which my raid group didn't have as hard a time with it, so it seems like blizzard realized it was overtuned and fixed their mistake. Good job blizz.
    If you cleared the last tier you should have enough gear to make decent progress in ToT, and therefore gear up via that method rather than raiding t14 heroics. Not to mention the fact that this post has nothing to do with what I originally said, which was referring to the linear nature of the raid. I think its fine that you have to follow a linear progression path for normal modes, which is what my post stated, not that you have to go clear t14 heroics to do normal t15. This is supplemented by the fact that you can progress on heroic in whatever order you want, removing "linearity" from the argument.

    But addressing your post, t14 heroics (or even normals) remain a viable gearing option if people "lack gear" for horridon. A raid in ~500 ilvl (if you were clearing normals in t14 and upgrading items you shouldn't be terribly far off) needs to master mechanics, not necessarily gear up more. And if your raid is sub 490-495 how much effort do you really need to put in to go clear ToES/HoF after the nerf? One raid night?

    I fail to see how giving you the choice between Horridon/Council/Tortos is going to make life easier for anyone. The only boss that is drastically easier than other bosses for it's position in the raid is Ji-kun.
    Last edited by edlike; 2013-03-28 at 12:34 AM.

  4. #64
    Elemental Lord clevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Alright man, whatever you want to call it has been and will continue to lead players to leave normals. It's a snowballing effect. Let say a player is only a C player but his friends are B or even A well that one C player made their raid really enjoyable and he left. Now the B players aren't having as much fun and are trying hard but getting frustrated and see their C player buddy leaving for LFR.

    By defending Blizzards normal raid tuning you are effectively advocating people to run LFR. Instead of saying hey blizzard maybe consider some retuning and some other measures to offset the difficulty for the C type player and the B type player, you'd rather defend the tuning as it exists and shove more and mroe players into running lfr. You may not think of it in those terms but that's exactly whats happening and it's happening in part because you cheer the developers and many of you still call this the best raid since uldular which to be blunt is a fucking joke.

    I'm all for some challenging bosses but we agree that the second boss shouldn't be this way. In fact I don't think the 3rd or 4th should. I think the last boss of that particular "wing" or however they divide it up in LFR should be about Horridon difficulty maybe slightly less but definetly the hardest of that part of the instance.

    Absolutely. IF the C player refuses to try, they don't belong in normals and I don't care if they leave normals to go to LFR. That's fine. You shouldn't tune normal around C players. Somewhat by definition, raids are harder group content. I firmly believe, having raided off and on for 7 years, that any normal person can learn to be a B level player by which I mean someone who knows how to setup gear (including gems and enchants) and who can learn and execute their rotation well. The only exceptions to that that I've run across are people with physical limits (for example, I know someone with nerve damage in their hand and it makes complex rotations very hard). Frankly, it's insulting to assume that people of normal intelligence CAN'T do this.

    TL;DR? You want normals to cater to people who refuse to bother trying. I want them to reward people who do try.

    Oh and to the person who noted 10k raids have killed Horridon... yeah. We started in ToT vastly undergeared (high 480s) and are just now getting to where we should be, around 500. We've also had new people swap in so there's some learning. It's not that Horridon is vastly hard, it's that I think he's a bit too much of a cockblock *for the second boss*.

    In the sense that ToT assumes you've farmed gear to the 495-500 level it assumes you have cleared T14 and/or have gotten some crafted or VP gear. There's little allowance for people who didn't farm T14 (and I do mean farm for some time, not just "woo hoo, we got a Sha kill, let's go T15!"). That's fine... it just means guilds like mine who started late have some catch up to do.
    Last edited by clevin; 2013-03-28 at 12:39 AM.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vulpei View Post
    So that means Naxx10/25 should be up there with the best right? I mean, you had 4 bosses you could be working on at almost any time.
    Naxx WAS a good raid. It was just rehashed and people never praise a rehash.
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  6. #66
    The Insane Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Danishgirl View Post

    I get your point, I actually do. However I don't agree with you. The middle class of raiding you say. Another think that might happen, is that several people who chose a middle class guild (raiding wise ofc), will look for a better guild in order to progress. Many people have the skill to play at a higher level than they're currently doing but with the many new 10 man guilds forming left and right, so many quality players prefer to raid with their friends - even if their friends aren't as skilled as they are. But that's a choice one must make and not about the game being overtuned.

    And the "decent" guilds you're talking about, if they're half decent they should rather recruit better people, up their standards, put in more effort and realize that carrying a good friend who sucks at raiding, isn't going to get them anywhere. If they then disband, that just mean that the few good raiders will find another and better guild. And that's not a bad thing, is it?
    I don't think that's a correct assumption and the data doesn't bear that out anyway. Fewer and fewer guilds are clearing these bosses and raids on normal, and more and more people are being shoved into lfr. The guilds are disbanding and those players AREN'T by and large finding other guilds. Their either leaving the game or just running lfr. It is PRECISELY because the raid is overtuned and lacks any sort of ramp up time. You can call it a choice but it's not a really good one, in fact it ends up being a choice about why should I bother playing this game anymore if I can't play it with my friends?

    The decent guilds can't recruit other players because THEIR ALL IN LFR or their all condensed in a handful of servers and simple don't want to deal with the hassle of getting back into raiding when it's just a nightmare at this difficulty level. If they disband it doesn't mean that the few good raiders will simple find another guild. It means that many will either stop playing entirely or only fun lfr.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-28 at 12:42 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by clevin View Post
    Absolutely. IF the C player refuses to try, they don't belong in normals and I don't care if they leave normals to go to LFR. That's fine. You shouldn't tune normal around C players. Somewhat by definition, raids are harder group content. I firmly believe, having raided off and on for 7 years, that any normal person can learn to be a B level player by which I mean someone who knows how to setup gear (including gems and enchants) and who can learn and execute their rotation well. The only exceptions to that that I've run across are people with physical limits (for example, I know someone with nerve damage in their hand and it makes complex rotations very hard). Frankly, it's insulting to assume that people of normal intelligence CAN'T do this.

    TL;DR? You want normals to cater to people who refuse to bother trying. I want them to reward people who do try.

    Oh and to the person who noted 10k raids have killed Horridon... yeah. We started in ToT vastly undergeared (high 480s) and are just now getting to where we should be, around 500. We've also had new people swap in so there's some learning. It's not that Horridon is vastly hard, it's that I think he's a bit too much of a cockblock *for the second boss*.

    In the sense that ToT assumes you've farmed gear to the 495-500 level it assumes you have cleared T14 and/or have gotten some crafted or VP gear. There's little allowance for people who didn't farm T14 (and I do mean farm for some time, not just "woo hoo, we got a Sha kill, let's go T15!"). That's fine... it just means guilds like mine who started late have some catch up to do.
    Alright man, I'll see you at under 10k in the next raiding tier. And then lower and lower and lower. How low can it go before you people get it through your thick skulls that the current tuning is driving players away from normals? I'm so tired of arguing with people over this when it's right there in fucking black in white. Whatever when they stop making normal raids due to lack of participation and your stuck with LFR and Heroic then you can come and tell me about how awesome ToT was.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  7. #67
    The Patient edlike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post

    Alright man, I'll see you at under 10k in the next raiding tier. And then lower and lower and lower. How low can it go before you people get it through your thick skulls that the current tuning is driving players away from normals? I'm so tired of arguing with people over this when it's right there in fucking black in white. Whatever when they stop making normal raids due to lack of participation and your stuck with LFR and Heroic then you can come and tell me about how awesome ToT was.
    It's hard to take your arguments seriously when you are so obviously influenced by emotion. The raid has been out 3 weeks. Ilvl upgrading is coming back (extremely cheaply) in 5.3. People are making progress. The numbers go up every week. Everything is black and white but you can still see what you want to see.

  8. #68
    Hmmmm ToT is much better raid than ICC. More fun fight mechanic,doesn't use a ton of reused model on bosses,more spectacular and variety environment in th raid,secret boss and not as easy on normal. ToT is up there with Ulduar. It's not really comparable with ICC imo. ICC was a good raid though.

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by Wildmoon View Post
    Hmmmm ToT is much better raid than ICC. More fun fight mechanic,doesn't use a ton of reused model on bosses,more spectacular and variety environment in th raid,secret boss and not as easy on normal. ToT is up there with Ulduar. It's not really comparable with ICC imo. ICC was a good raid though.
    Nobody is talking about boss mechanics. We're talking about layout of the raid.

  10. #70
    Ulduar definitely the best. ICC is very meh/symmetrical. I actually really enjoyed Karazhan immensely.
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  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    No it's not. It's really not. Icc was FAR more accessible than ToT. ICC had a much better difficulty curve. It had much better lore. The fights were more engaging. Throne is just wall after wall after wall designed to FORCE players who should be running ToT to go back and do previous raids in an effort to further gate ToT and make sure it lasts as long as possible. Gear check after gear check boss.
    Raid instances shouldn't have difficulty curves. You need checks at the beginning of the instance so that people know what's needed to progress further on. You can complain about Horridon being too rough in the beginning, but if you can't down him, how are you going to down some of the harder fights later on? If ToT was built your way, then fights like Jin'rokh, Tortos, and Ji-Kun would all be near the beginning and then you'd be stuck on Megaera, Elder Council, etc all back-to-back-to-back. I know, especially for my guild, that we enjoy the little breaks between hard bosses so that we know "Hey if we can get this boss down, the next will be a piece of cake, etc."

    Plus Jin'rokh is the gear check while Horridon is the coordination check. All instances since the beginning of WoW have had checks at the start. SSC had Hydros which was a HARSH gear check, Black Temple had Naj'entus which was a skill / gear check, MSV had Stone Guards, and so on.

  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by Wowalixi View Post
    Plus Jin'rokh is the gear check while Horridon is the coordination check.
    This comment is so incorrect, it's painful. Jin'rokh is not a gear check and is all about mechanics. Horridon is a very tight gear check on multiple levels.

  13. #73
    I agree that Ulduar was really amazing when it came to "pick your bossfight". It was sorta there back in TBC already, SSC, TK and BT all a few bosses you could kill in whatever order you wanted to. (I guess sorta in Karazhan as well) But they really nailed it with Ulduar.

    One of my biggest problems with raids today is that they are way too straightforward. You can only go one way and the bosses are lined up in a row pretty much.

  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by WeaponXAnimosity View Post
    I just loved the lore of ICC and Ulduar. Don't know what it is but both raids simply felt epic every time I run them. The new raids in Pandaria just feel boring. Get in, kill boss, loot, get out. IMO, Pandaren raids just feel like they were pulled out of thin air for the sake of a new expansion.
    Interesting post. I think in terms of scale, atmosphere and detail, based on first 6 bosses this is turning into one of the best looking raids ever. My 2 cents.

    Although I am confused with the lore. LFR round 2 you are approaching from what appears to be under the throne of thunder (aka black temple) but the first round in actually up in the temple.
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  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by WeaponXAnimosity View Post
    I just loved the lore of ICC and Ulduar. Don't know what it is but both raids simply felt epic every time I run them. The new raids in Pandaria just feel boring. Get in, kill boss, loot, get out. IMO, Pandaren raids just feel like they were pulled out of thin air for the sake of a new expansion.
    People tend to underestimate the effect of good lore on raid quality and satisfaction imo. ICC and Ulduar felt epic not just because of raid design....

    I liked T14, T13 is not as satisfying to me for a variety of reasons. My favorite raid tier in Cata was Firelands, which wouldn't have felt nearly as epic to me if it wasn't for the Ragnaros encounter, which was all around good lore/good design even if people were irritated that we were fighting the same raid boss twice.

  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by Arganaut View Post
    Interesting post. I think in terms of scale, atmosphere and detail, based on first 6 bosses this is turning into one of the best looking raids ever. My 2 cents.

    Although I am confused with the lore. LFR round 2 you are approaching from what appears to be under the throne of thunder (aka black temple) but the first round in actually up in the temple.
    There's a cut scene in Normal/Heroic that you don't see in LFR. Basically, after you kill Council, you try and enter the palace proper across a bridge like thing. Lei Shen shows up and is like "NUH UH" and destroys the bridge, and you all fall down into the sewers.

    That's why I like the 2nd wing so much, it's literally you crawling your way back up into the palace, starting in a very Stonecore-esque rock core, through an underground swamp, and then climbing up through an eagle's eyrie, whose feathers you use to fly back up into the "experimental wing" of the palace, AKA Lei Shen's Little House of Horrors.

    It's a great story arc and theme, if you ask me. I'm kind of surprised the 2nd wing didn't start with that cutscene in LFR.

  17. #77
    Bloodsail Admiral Lethora's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thylacine View Post
    This is an extreme opinion, and one that sits in an overwhelming minority if you legitimately thought that. In fact, I get the feeling you’re trolling so feel free to move on.
    No, I wasn't trolling at all. ICC is horrible in my book. Lots of fights were just badly designed, gating was horrible, most bosses felt out of place (actually, only Marrowgar-Deathwhisper-Saurfang-Sindragosa and LK felt okay-ish for me, I had no idea why others were there). Almost 2minute intro speech @ Saurfang was fun the first time and was too annoying when you pulled boss for 10th time. Sindragosa and Deathwhisper had the worst voiceovers in history of raiding (BETRAAAAAAAAAAAAYS YOUUUUU). Also, interior of the instance was dull. Skulls and saronite everywhere. Yay.
    Lich King was a well-designed and amazing fight, that is true. Rest of the instance was not so good.
    Ulduar and ToT, on the other hand, are titan-themed (and I'm a big fan of titan stuff), have fairly different interiors in different parts, both present optional, hard-to-unlock boss, have a good variety of fights, present some actual lore and very few if none of the bosses feel out of place there. Also, tuning is quite nice, bosses were hard even on normal.

    This is all personal opinion ofc, feel free to disagree.

  18. #78
    Immortal Pua's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fangless View Post
    Path of least resistance.

    You can get 502 items, nearly as good as last tier's heroic items, by pressing a queue button. Of course people are drawn to that. If I could get gear upgrades by just staying online for an hour, I'd probably do it too.
    Absolutely; and I think this is a real design problem, particularly when the gear expectation for a normal tier is beyond the capability of those completing the previous normal tier. As erstwhile hinted, I have no real complaints with heroic raiding or LFR but I am concerned about normal-mode raiders. I think it’s a legitimate concern.

    Quote Originally Posted by edlike View Post
    This is pretty absurd to say. Experience the progression path through normal as the design team has intended you to. Progress on heroic in whatever manner you want. I doubt it will take you til 5.4 to kill Lei Shen with the myriad gearing options available. To criticize the designers because the tier is linear on normal is just ridiculous.
    What’s ridiculous is your choice to criticise my view as “pretty absurd”, when you don’t bother to add the context of that view that was provided in the very post you quoted. Clearly, it’s simpler to just disagree and personally slight someone after forming a straw-man argument from their commentary?

    Look:

    The progression path is NOT “Normal T14 – Heroic T14 – Normal T15 – Heroic T15 – Normal T16 – Heroic T16”.

    If it were, that’d be illogical. My worry is that THIS design team cannot properly differentiate between what a normal mode raider is, when compared to their heroic or LFR counterparts. Not only that, Horridon is overtuned on normal 10-man because it’s extremely punishing on groups with bad compositions. Personally, I thought the Council of Elders was easier than Horridon – but that doesn’t alter the fact that the raid kicks off with a significant wall right at the start and no way to get round it other than doing things you’ve already done, or praying RNG favours you.

    It’s objectively poor design.

    Compare that with the design team that created Sartharion; an encounter that was built for casuals (LFR difficulty), intermediates (Normal mode) and the highly-skilled (Heroic mode), and did so IN A SINGLE SCALING ENCOUNTER.

    Night and day, old bean, night and day.

    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Look I'm all for hard bosses on normal. I just think their needs to be easy ones in the mix and more of them earlier on. That way you actually build up some progression, get some confidence behind you as you progress and have some options other than wipe on horridon for hours on end because Blizzard wants you to go back and farm LFR or content you already cleared.
    I’m totally with you on this particular point.

    Quote Originally Posted by royals View Post
    I am a little confused as to why people are unhappy with the progression required to do normals this tier. I get it, we want to kill bosses AND we want to see content. But lets look at the LFR gating as well as the length at which we will still be in this tier. If you are truly a normal mode raid team and you want to be able to finish normals by the end of the tier... then where is the hurry? I raid lead our team and I have to constantly remind them as well.
    I think that’s a very good point. If you’re looking to be done with the tier by the time the next arrives, the pace is about right if you’re working on Tortos now (as we are). That doesn’t change the fact that the drop off between people killing Jin’rokh and then going on to kill Horridon is far too big.

    Quote Originally Posted by shokter View Post
    While I agree that it makes for more interesting raid design, I do think that they don't need every raid to be like that. That said, none of the t14 raids were non linear (although you could choose between them). I am hoping the next tier is non-linear, but just because it is right for one raid doesn't mean it is right for all raids.
    Another very good point that everyone should bear in mind.

    Quote Originally Posted by jaymzkerten View Post
    Last I checked when ICC came out:
    1) It was very gated, so I'd call that more of a wall than anything
    2) I seem to recall needing to continue to do ToC *and* ToGC every week, at LEAST all the way up until we killed LK
    3) the only thing that made ICC accessible was the 30% buff; it was around that time that people started to do GDKP runs, and even then most of them fell apart after Rotface/Festergut
    4) the only lore you had going into ICC was Saurfang, BQL if you did the battered hilt quest, Sindragosa, and everything involving LK

    And to everyone saying Horridon is so overtuned -- the top guild on my server runs a weekly alt run on Saturdays and they pug a lot of people from other guilds for it. First week we went into ToT we 1 shot Horridon.
    1) A gate is not a wall; that’s a silly argument.
    2) The heroic five-mans that came with 3.3 stopped you needing to do TotC.
    3) It was accessible because the first wing was pretty easy, and the gate made sure you were geared before moving on. After that, you could pick any out of four bosses to work on (and farm) if you were having trouble with something.
    4) So there was lore in Icecrown other than Arthas? Yeah, I know.

    Your experience doesn’t matter. My experience doesn’t matter. All we can say is that there is a HUGE dropoff from people killing Jin’rokh to those killing Horridon; the implications are pretty obvious.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lethora View Post
    This is all personal opinion ofc, feel free to disagree.
    You are now, and shall ever be, entitled to your opinion. But compare this post to your first that basically said “ICC was awful” when it remains one of the most popular raids in the game’s history.

    Oh, and for the record, I agree with some of your criticisms.

  19. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thylacine View Post
    You are now, and shall ever be, entitled to your opinion. But compare this post to your first that basically said “ICC was awful” when it remains one of the most popular raids in the game’s history.
    McDonald's food is awful but it still remains one of the most popular foods in the world. See what I did there?
    Popular doesn't equal good.

  20. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by Socialhealer View Post
    only lk 25 hc needed that buff no other boss.
    If they can't do it without the 30% buff then it's not "raiding" either. -.- You didn't NEED the buff and yes even with the 30% buff it is STILL raiding. I don't care what all the elitist wanna be's say about it. Anything that takes 10+ people is a raid no matter how face roll easy or outrageously hard it might be.

    On Topic however, I agree with the OP. Players need SOME choice on what bosses they attempt. A few bosses that can be skipped and not a straight shot of "Kill them all or you will never see the end" would be nice.
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