10m Amount of loot issue.

[Deleted]

If you're disenchanting 70% of your loot you should think about bringing a better raid comp.

[Seriss]

If you want to do a silly 1 vs 1 comparison of who got more lucky with loot and should therefore be used as an example for loot distribution that is applicable to any and all 10-man guilds in the world, you should at least pick the same class and/or spec to do so. Also keep in mind that the characters in question need to have a certain equal standing in the guild, meaning that they were reliable players for a long time in that guild and haven't hopped there from another guild where they already got some of their gear.

Btw, I saw Nymzee has the highest ilvl out of all the people who are in Halcyon, a 10-man guild, provided that the profiles at wowprogress are up-to-date, of course.

But you know what? All of this is irrelevant for what we're discussing here!

So, can we please get back to the topic at hand and stop those silly squabbles about 25-mans?

It's a simple fact that, loot tables as they are, suffer from a high probability to not provide beneficial drops in an environment where you only randomly get to see 2/20 items per kill.

[Deleted]

Raiding only 10 man and love it, to me its not the loot that drives me but the 9 other people i raid with, ive known them for a few years now.

People raiding 25man should have some more love over 10mans imo, the extra work running a 25man guild etc

[EruptorNZ]

I think a good change would be to add a 3rd piece of loot dropping on bosses that give tier - so theres 2 non-tier pieces and 1 tier dropping. This is due to the loot distribution being uneven with a chance of 1/3 tier pieces, and then a 1/14 or 1/11 chance at another item.

Council of Elders
-3 tier pieces
-14 non-tier pieces

Ji'kun/Dark Animus/Iron Qon/Twin Consorts
-3 Tier pieces
-11 non-tier pieces

Raiding only 10 man and love it, to me its not the loot that drives me but the 9 other people i raid with, ive known them for a few years now.

People raiding 25man should have some more love over 10mans imo, the extra work running a 25man guild etc

They should get nothing that enhances their progression, they already have better loot distribution 6/25 compared to 2/10. What they need are cosmetic intensives, eg. different server first achievements, or different achievements all together, exclusive 25 man mounts.

[Hoofey]

The problem with 10man is the damn RNG.

10 mans disenchant a higher % of the loot than 25 mans, im pretty damn sure about that. Not sure how many items we disenchanted this week, but its been an average of 40%ish since the first week in ToT, which basically means we only get around 1 useful item per boss.

[Nelle]

10man is discount raiding, and should thus get discount loot.

Infracted; keep it constructive (by Sonnillon)

[DechCJC]

Oh, so because the officer's worked harder to get the raid going - The raiders that did absolutely jack shit get rewarded with more gear? Sounds fair. Hell, being a player in 25 man is actually less stressful than on 10 man imo (nowadays at least). So many derp moments on streams of top 25 man guilds, so many retarded mistakes that they're allowed purely because they can be ressed 3 times.

The only people that have it harder in 25 mans are the RL's/officers, and I honestly wouldn't normally compare 10/25 difficulty because quite frankly it's relatively balanced, but this patch 25 man just looks like a complete joke. I honestly don't see why they deserve more loot when the actual individual skill level of each player doesn't even have to be as high as you might think. Give the officers a cookie or something, every1 else can go to hell with their extra loot. Can't believe how much crap we've sharded/gave to OS from ToT now.

I WISH I raided 25 man, it's just so damn hard to actually get the people for it (And hell if i'm becoming a guild hopper). Not only because I personally think it's not actually any easier/harder (well, there are certain fights where fights are harder for the other, marginally) - But 25 man raiding is 'real' raiding imo. So many more CD's, not as many issues with not having the right specs in your group etc etc; Where's my reward for putting up with a sub-par raiding experience?

[Deleted]

I WISH I raided 25 man, it's just so damn hard to actually get the people for it

And that is why 25 man raiders should be rewarded more.

[Vapo]

And that is why 25 man raiders should be rewarded more.

Yea 25mans can have more, why not..theres more people in 25man rosters. but that doesnt mean 10man raiders should suffer from bad loot.

[Tuffguss]

Check this idea, just a small thought so don't burn me alive if you don't like it.

Every boss (10man) should just drop 2 pieces of "Insert fancy name for current raid" currency ie. "Throne of thunder relic". At the end of your raid you head back to the beginning of the instance where there is an npc guarding an ever-growing pile of treasure you've collected during your raid (grows bigger as you kill more bosses). You then trade 1 "Throne of thunder relic" to the npc for 1 piece of gear. The npc's haul of items to choose from will obviously only include those included in the loot tables of currently defeated bosses.

Some kind of system like this that gets rid of wastage is sorely needed... I too am sick to death of sharding 50% the loot you've fought hard for in 10mans. This system would result in people gearing up only slightly faster which blizzard is no doubt concerned about as they only want to prolong the content, but a system that has no wastage would be far more satisfying...

Would be interested to hear thoughts on such an idea.

[Deleted]

'bad' loot.

Having a well balanced 10 man roster the only 'bad' loot would be healing plate if you lack a holydin, or one of the mail/leathers. Not end of the world.

[Vapo]

"bring the player, not the class" yea, everyone knows that it works like that right? If class balance would be so perfect that you could actually do that AND you had players that played those classes to make it so, then yes you could take "balanced" setup. It was already suggested and already had many replies why it doesnt work... maybe on farm raid or when some raid buff active it can work to some degree yes...

And yea, imagine if you took this "balanced" setup of yours, and then bosses dropped holydin loot. In 10man that is automaticly 50% of loot disenchanted per boss that dropped plate-spirit.

[Deleted]

"bring the player, not the class" yea, everyone knows that it works like that right? If class balance would be so perfect that you could actually do that AND you had players that played those classes to make it so, then yes you could take "balanced" setup. It was already suggested and already had many replies why it doesnt work... maybe on farm raid or when some raid buff active it can work to some degree yes...

So you are both suggesting you only bring players, yet you class stack because of class balance? What?

For example a setup could be-

rogue
hunter
warlock
boomkin
spriest (os disc)
restoshaman
monk healer
hpaladin

dk tank
warrior tank

that is all loot covered with a strong group composition

[Arhippa]

Why is getting loot such a big deal in raiding ? Why is getting loot from bosses a necessity for having fun ? I thought loot was there to make the next progress boss(es) and farm kills just that tiny bit easier every time you/someone in your raid got a new item. If you got lucky, good for you - if not, well, there's always the next reset.

As a sidenote, how many 10mans actually run with just 10 raiders ? I'm curious, as I have no idea. Is it the majority or a minority ? My first thought was that surely it can't be the majority, but when you think about it, there are a lot of 10mans that are a bit more on the casual side, and I could imagine them raiding with just 10 and doing fine, cancelling raids when someone can't come but it's not a big deal to them.

Anyway, this thought process shown above started as I was reading the thread and something that always catches my eye in this kind of threads and just burns me to see, is how so many people compare 10 raiders to 25 raiders directly. As if that was everyone in the guild in need of loot. We had 13 (in hindsight, that was 1-2 players too many) when I was doing 10mans, and ~35ish when I did 25mans. Just because some people are benched for a fight, doesn't mean they don't need loot from the boss. Keep that in mind when you're doing your "how many items/raider X-size drops" math.

[Deleted]

Why is getting loot such a big deal in raiding ? Why is getting loot from bosses a necessity for having fun ? I thought loot was there to make the next progress boss(es) and farm kills just that tiny bit easier every time you/someone in your raid got a new item. If you lucky, good for you - if not, well, there's always the next reset.

As a sidenote, how many 10mans actually run with just 10 raiders ? I'm curious, as I have no idea. Is it the majority or a minority ? My first thought was that surely it can't be the majority, but when you think about it, there are a lot of 10mans that are a bit more on the casual side, and I could imagine them raiding with just 10 and doing fine, cancelling raids when someone can't come but it's not a big deal to them.

Anyway, this thought process shown above started as I was reading the thread and something that always catches my eye in this kind of threads and just burns me to see, is how so many people compare 10 raiders to 25 raiders directly. As if that was everyone in the guild in need of loot. We had 13 (in hindsight, that was 1-2 players too many) when I was doing 10mans, and ~35ish when I did 25mans. Just because some people are benched for a fight, doesn't mean they don't need loot from the boss. Keep that in mind when you're doing your "how many items/raider X-size drops" math.

I know of a few friends guilds that raid 10 man that have a solid 10/11 raid group and should people not be able to make it they take geared/brained socials that don't hav the time to permenantly commit to raiding.

[Seriss]

"bring the player, not the class" yea, everyone knows that it works like that right? If class balance would be so perfect that you could actually do that AND you had players that played those classes to make it so, then yes you could take "balanced" setup. It was already suggested and already had many replies why it doesnt work... maybe on farm raid or when some raid buff active it can work to some degree yes...

And yea, imagine if you took this "balanced" setup of yours, and then bosses dropped holydin loot. In 10man that is automaticly 50% of loot disenchanted per boss that dropped plate-spirit.

Additionally, even you can use that stuff the first time around, there's no way to keep it from dropping over and over and over and thus blocking a loot slot that could have been something that any of the other people would be happy about. It's really frustrating to hear your paladin over TS3 "Oh I already have that one, DE it." But, to be fair, our problem is more the agi-mail type... I swear, if I had had any inclinations to go Enhancement in T14, I'd have been fully geared within a heart-beat.

But Vapo, it IS "bring the player". You just need a player who plays the right selection of classes and has kept them halfway geared for you to swap in as needed. You need to pick your friends more carefully, honestly. And how can you not have a tank of each kind in your roster and a healer of every armor type... How can you even build a raid without the steady presence of an agi-mail user or an agi-leather user or someone who will take all the daggers or polearms? *briefly holds up a little 'sarcasm' sign*

Honestly, there is absolutely no way to create a good raid setup, covering up all the buffs and debuffs, with the people you have in your squishy little 10-man roster AND make sure to bring the exact armor classes so that the probability to have to shard any items is reduced to a bare minimum. Not going to happen in a world that is so diverse in regards to classes and so limited in what you can bring.

On the other hand, you can force people to reroll and if they don't do that, just recruit some guy that you don't know and kick people you've played with for years only because they're not the right class and/or spec... All in the name of loot so you can gear up better.

[Deleted]

For example a setup could be-

rogue
hunter
warlock
boomkin
spriest (os disc)
restoshaman
monk healer
hpaladin

dk tank
warrior tank

that is all loot covered with a strong group composition

Strong group composition is arguable at best. What will you do with all the strength gear with haste or crit on btw? One of the tank's offspec? Sure, 'cause there's tons of 1-tank fights. Also 3 main-spec healers and 1 off-spec healer?

I love all the aneckdotal evidence that gets thrown left right and centre by both sides. Means absolutely nothing. 25m gears up faster yes, and 10m has more rng/less loot/will DE more stuff quicker, it's simple math. Meh. Only thing I'd kind of want would be going back to FL days or earlier, where tier tokens were an extra, and didn't take place for a piece of loot.

[Vapo]

I dont know why you would ever use anything over disc priest in 10man. Or warrior over paladin. And even with that sort of setups that actually can use most of loots first time they drop, if you get it 2nd time or 3rd time its DE again and 50% loot wasted.

[BananaHandsB]

I've been a GM and raid leader for over 5 years, its definitely way harder. If not 3x then at least 2x harder.

I'm not talking about the fights, I'm talking about the logistics of finding 25 competent players vs 10. Maybe its because I play on a low pop servers a lot, so that may vary your mileage but I've always found those last 5-6 spots in 25s to be super hard to fill properly.



That's enough in my opinion.

It also depends on your server. On my server its about 10x harder (if not more) to be a 25m raid leader. That's why there's only 1 realm wide. They definitely deserve more loot.

[Millie]

'bad' loot.

Having a well balanced 10 man roster the only 'bad' loot would be healing plate if you lack a holydin, or one of the mail/leathers. Not end of the world.

In your imaginary world where DPS, healing and tanking balance is so amazing across classes that you bring 10 different ones.