What is the current state of Warriors in PVE?

[senturion]

Just to disclaim that I consider myself still pretty amateur as a warrior. I share hoping that I can contribute positively to this community as I had benefited from some of the discussions here. Here are my views:

This is something I notice. At above 510 gear level, gear choices really make a difference. Me and my other guild warrior is about the same ilevel but he had (now no more) slightly better weapons and different trinket choice and he pulls ahead of me. Eg straight forward fight like Jin Rokh he'd pull near 190 and I would pull 176-180k. I'm beginning to think that twin consort trinket kinda suck as the stacks build up very poorly. Jikun feather appears to be really strong. Talisman of Rage proc is hard to time and luck plays a part to align it with BB .

In terms of melee standings, our guild best melee is actually Eunya, a Monk!? Consistently ranked ok all fights and even beats his sim dps. Salure our rogue beats me in absolute DPS but never ranked. Deathshatil a DK has insane dps on some fights but I've beaten him on Jin'rokh.

Bottom line is: at a certain level, it comes down to skill and personal gear research. Above 510 ilevel, u got to experiment with gear pairings and not just rely on simcraft / mr robot anymore.

[Deleted]

Bottom line is: at a certain level, it comes down to skill and personal gear research. Above 510 ilevel, u got to experiment with gear pairings and not just rely on simcraft / mr robot anymore.

Not rely on Simcraft anymore? Seriously? I'm pretty sure the Fury warrior "Action Priority List" is pretty well done.
I can not vouch for other classes, but I've never beaten my sims.

I understand that trinket with RPPM's might need some "testing" but the rest of our gear can easily be simmed.
Getting weapon upgrades as a warrior will net you as the same gains as upgrading multiple other pieces of gear. More WeaponDPS = sex.

At this point (Early HM's for most) it's not like people have an abundance of gear. You simply use that what drops.

[Eisenstein]

I wet my pants when the changes in the beginning of MoP made Fury a viable spec again. I am warrior for life and yet every time Fury is good they knock my D!<% in the dirt and nerf it. Arms is so boring and should stay pvp spec.

Now that all the crying is done, as SMF Warrior I still out dps most people with similar ilvl gear on. Fury does depend allot on instinct because the better you know your class the less chance you have to have major luls in DPS. I mean with all the sims that people do they also say that Ret Pally is way low on the charts but one of my guildies rolls ret and he can kill it.

A lesson to anyone looking to pve. Master your favorite class and don't stand in fire and you will have a core raid spot. The problem in so many use sims and crap like that for a crutch as to why they aren't brought to raid. The reality is on their off time they are collecting easter eggs and rping rather than reading the forums and hitting the dummy. Along with the fact that there is a misconception about fire. IT IS NOT A HASTE BOOST AND EVEN IF IT WAS HASTE IS CRAP FOR WARRIORS!

[Deleted]

Maybe my perspective is skewed but, of the two warrior DPS I have in my roster, I can say they do perform well in DPS. One of them is always up there at the of top of damage meters along our rogue (the other does well but isn't as good). We're no top-end guild but our DPS are decent (did get Iron Qon on the first kill with almost 2 minutes left to enrage so that's that).

[meteo]

@simcraft results and beating them: People have to understand that the displayed value is an average of 50'000 fights. This means that you should be able to beat that average if you are as good as you claim to be. Not always but from time to time. Additionally most fights have ways to boost your dps which completely ruins the comparison (simc simulates a patchwerk fight).


b2t: I think warriors deal enough damage to be used but their self cooldowns are lacking when you compare them to other melees which hurts them far more in 10man than 25man. Sure they got great utility but this is better in 25man than in 10man where individual skill and class matter more.

[senturion]

I shall use my own 25M guild roster as a reference. I raid with Ultimate which is rank 3rd on Frostmourne server. I would say that our DPS are strong and pretty competent. In the last raid we had 47 Top 200 ranks (we didnt log for Animus and Leishen) on WOL: Several top 10 finishes. Many top 50s and 100s. So alot of good players there.

Out of the 15 DPS slots, our guild's 2 warriors were mainly ending up in the top 10 out of 15. Both of us are still somewhere in the middle of the pack in terms of gear level so I understand that we should scale up much better at Heroic gear levels. So I think warriors feature pretty competitively in PVE..

Heroic Jin'rokh: Warriors ranked 5th and 10th
Tortos: Warrior ranked 9th
Megaera: Warrior ranked 5th
Jikun: Warriors ranked 4th and 10th DPS spot
Durumu: Warrior ranked 7th DPS spot
Iron Qon: Warrior ranked 8th DPS spot
Twin consorts: Warriors ranked 1st and 9th.

[Deleted]

Heroic Jin'rokh: Warriors ranked 5th and 10th
Tortos: Warrior ranked 9th
Megaera: Warrior ranked 5th
Jikun: Warriors ranked 4th and 10th DPS spot
Durumu: Warrior ranked 7th DPS spot
Iron Qon: Warrior ranked 8th DPS spot
Twin consorts: Warriors ranked 1st and 9th.

You do realize they rank against others of their spec ?
That warriors can rank does not represent pve viability.

Take a look at overall for any given fight, how many arms/fury warriors do you see in top40 ? Top 100 ?

For example, that rank 1 on twin consorts, current 25m normal top fury parse is 169k. Top overall is 264k, not a small margin imo :P

[Deleted]

You do realize they rank against others of their spec ?
That warriors can rank does not represent pve viability.

Take a look at overall for any given fight, how many arms/fury warriors do you see in top40 ? Top 100 ?

For example, that rank 1 on twin consorts, current 25m normal top fury parse is 169k. Top overall is 264k, not a small margin imo :P

He's talking about within his raid. E.g. on heroic Jin'Rokh the warriors came 4th (not 5th, I checked) and 10th out of the DPS in his raid. A sample size of one raid is pretty meaningless though.

[ShaanuJaanu]

He's talking about within his raid. E.g. on heroic Jin'Rokh the warriors came 4th (not 5th, I checked) and 10th out of the DPS in his raid. A sample size of one raid is pretty meaningless though.

sample size of any single raid is meaningless.

if you really want to know the actual viability of a warrior, you should ask what will you gain by benching the said warrior? or what will you gain by bringing the said warrior?

if DPS is all that matters, if you brought 3 locks/3 DKs/3 rogues/2 Spriests (or any combination of those classes for 8-10 raid slots)..your warrior will never be in the top 10 and all those classes have way better survivability than a dps warrior and will not miss rally/banner.

if all you had was a stable roster of 30-35 raiders(25m RAID) with class diversity, warriors will almost always be included in the raid for their utility and their dps is not too shabby if you include all classes and specs.

however, as far as a melee spot is considered, I would bring a dk/rogue over a warrior any day of the week at its current state.

AMS with Purgatory / Feint with Cheat for death is just way too strong for current tier heroics along with their superior dps compared to a warrior.

[Deleted]

however, as far as a melee spot is considered, I would bring a dk/rogue over a warrior any day of the week at its current state.

AMS with Purgatory / Feint with Cheat for death is just way too strong for current tier heroics along with their superior dps compared to a warrior.

^This!

We might have a ton of utility but we had to sacrifice a TON of survivability to get it.

This problem is alot worse in 10m compared to 25m. Raiding without healtstones, as a Fury warrior, equals pure misery.
The same can be said about raiding without a Disc priests shielding.

[senturion]

I use Raidbots which put Fury Warrior DPS as Top 5 overall DPS for both 25N and 25H..

[ShaanuJaanu]

I use Raidbots which put Fury Warrior DPS as Top 5 overall DPS for both 25N and 25H..

first of all, that is only for the top parses not overall parses, overall parses would put fury at near bottom or middle of the pack.

second of all, the top parses include bloated ilvl from Asia, they have reached a lot of higher rate/enrage uptime due to higher ilvl gear.

you should be looking at overall parse to include the US/EU parses (lets be honest, only 10-20% of us from US/EU are in the top 100 parses, its even worst for pure dps classes)

http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Overall_D...14/30/default/

I'm ranked under 50 on both heroic kills (25m Jinrokh/Horridon) but only in the ~50th percentile on raidbots/epeen) just shows how misleading the top 100 parses on that site can be.

[senturion]

I maybe wrong but I think top parses are more relevant because these are the people who know what they are doing. The difference between a good and bad fury warrior is quite evident and since warrior is quite a popular spec, I would expect the median to be dragged down by alot of noobs.

Bloated ilvl from Asia would affect all classes too. So far, Jin'rokh is the only boss I get ranked on consistently. So my verdict is that I need to work on my rotation / CD timings because if I can get top 50 rank for Jin'Rokh, there is no reason why I can't get ranked for the other fights.

first of all, that is only for the top parses not overall parses, overall parses would put fury at near bottom or middle of the pack.

second of all, the top parses include bloated ilvl from Asia, they have reached a lot of higher rate/enrage uptime due to higher ilvl gear.

you should be looking at overall parse to include the US/EU parses (lets be honest, only 10-20% of us from US/EU are in the top 100 parses, its even worst for pure dps classes)

http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Overall_D...14/30/default/

I'm ranked under 50 on both heroic kills (25m Jinrokh/Horridon) but only in the ~50th percentile on raidbots/epeen) just shows how misleading the top 100 parses on that site can be.

[Deleted]

I maybe wrong but I think top parses are more relevant because these are the people who know what they are doing. The difference between a good and bad fury warrior is quite evident and since warrior is quite a popular spec, I would expect the median to be dragged down by alot of noobs.

Bloated ilvl from Asia would affect all classes too. So far, Jin'rokh is the only boss I get ranked on consistently. So my verdict is that I need to work on my rotation / CD timings because if I can get top 50 rank for Jin'Rokh, there is no reason why I can't get ranked for the other fights.

Oh there is one pretty big reason for ranking on Jin'rokh and not on other fights.
Your DPS on that fight depends hugely on the usage of pools, if you happen to not have a pool in your execute phase, kiss your DPS goodbye.
If anything, Jin'rokh is a pretty bad example of good DPS, since it's way too gimmicky.

[Shiinji]

During pre pot CDs and hero as arms I pulled 180-190 ish while everyone is close to 270+ but as fury I'm close to 300k

[Recke]

Okay, I see some talk about raidbots showing warriors are up there, however that's because a lot of people play, a lot of top people have private logs, a lot of people have a lot of circumstances, so I want to iterate something.

The 90th percentile mark, which shows what the high end of dps are doing, using all samples as a way to place it.
http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Jin&#39;rokh_...100/14/30/p90/
Jin'Rokh, with that dps buff and Fury's mastery, we sit pretty high up there. Although Arms is pretty low on the totem.

http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Horridon/25N/100/14/30/p90/
Horridon, we got a lot of aoe and a bit of moving. Warriors are on par, but par is ~20-40k lower dps, and we don't have the same cds as the dks that are near us.

http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Council_o...100/14/30/p90/
Council, where the fun begins. Cleave-able fight with some movement, things we shine at right(Remember Garalon, Vegeta? Remember the Bug Planet, Vegeta?)? 32k below most ranged classes/unholy dks. Only 20k below rogues. Don't get me started on Arms.

http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Tortos/25N/100/14/30/p90/
Tortos, we are significantly lower than Rogues and DKs and they can chill through rockfall making healers lives easier.

I don't think I need to go on, but it repeats. At Lei Shen normal, Fury warriors are near the top, but with our lack of survivability on most of the mechanics (a lot of magic damage, and stuff rogues/dks can "die" through and be Void Swapped back to full with where as we would need a brez), I think that's what it is.

You can turn the notch up to 99% percentile or max (or even heroic) to see what the top of each class are doing, but you'll find the gap between warriors and other classes grow except under very good rng.

Take it with a grain of salt, or w/e have you.

[Misux]

Warriors do bring 2 raid CD's which is very beneficial, and overall their active mitigation scaling isn't that bad, so Prot warriors are quite okay, my tanking partner is one

[ro9ue]

I hate to say it, but I just dislike the Warrior playstyle in PVE these days. I feel like towards the end of Cata they were really fun and they changed it up for really no good reason in MoP. I just don't like how it plays anymore - it went from probably my 2nd or 3rd most loved class last expansion to one of my benched alts now.

That's just my opinion anyway. I was a huge Arms guy for years. If I do hop on my warrior I'd rather play Fury now.

[Juni]

I hate to say it, but I just dislike the Warrior playstyle in PVE these days. I feel like towards the end of Cata they were really fun and they changed it up for really no good reason in MoP. I just don't like how it plays anymore - it went from probably my 2nd or 3rd most loved class last expansion to one of my benched alts now.

That's just my opinion anyway. I was a huge Arms guy for years. If I do hop on my warrior I'd rather play Fury now.

To be fair. Arms in DS was prolly the most fun I've had on my warrior since WotLK. And then they decided to change it into some stupid rotation that feels unnatural and awkward. It still feels weird. And fury literally makes my palms sweat.

[Opeth69]

From what ive seen warriors are very good this tier but it depends on the tactic your guild adopts. E.g on tortos some guilds slowly take down the adds and burn the boss which isnt in our favour, others will burst aoe them down favouring warriors with bladestorm heavily. Tbh it feels at times like that one ability is carrying us through this tier, were behind good dks, rogues and monks on single target, and passive cleave dks trump us as both unholy and frost, but any fight that has the opportunity to burst aoe we can be very effective.

A lot of fights this tier fit that mould, horridon aoeing adds, council depending on tactics, tortos on bats, maegeera for aoeing the arcane adds, jikun we can storm pretty much every platform, durumu for icewalls, consorts for lurkers in transition and lei shen for balls of lightning. Id say based on how many fights have some form of aoe/cleave factor and the potential for burst aoe it puts us in good stead, but I also slightly feel that 1h fury isn't as strong this tier compared to TG simply due to TG's advantage when there's cleave.

Log wise so many guilds have the private that it's hard to judge class balance at this stage, but from what I have observed top single target melee is monk>rogue>dk>war, top cleave is dk>war>monk>rogue and top burst aoe is war>monk>dk>rogue.

I think our biggest problem is a lack of personal cd's compared to others, we really could do with a survivability buff as compared to rogues and monks we have so little to withstand many of the brutal mechanics of heroic raiding this tier.