[MW] Haste 27.76% worth it?

[Kadas]

Hoping for a little guidance here:

I found the next haste breakpoint for us somewhere in this forum as 27.76% or 6141.

1. Can anyone verify that number as accurate?
2. Is it worth it to go for that number? I would gain 8.18% haste in exchange for 3.18% crit, 160 spirit and 88 int. also worth noting that I have the two set. (AskMrRobot)

Any help would be appreciated!

[DirewolfX]

Yes and probably yes.

[Kadas]

Thanks! I'll give it a go tonight.

[TheTrueM4gg0t]

Yes take it. As long as you dont sacrifice to much spirit, take the breakpoints!

[Facehaver]

Yes take it. As long as you dont sacrifice to much spirit, take the breakpoints!

I don't know if its possible to sacrifice ENOUGH spirit at this point...

[sysco]

It becomes a lot more beneficial once you have the 2 set

[Servasus]

From the first haste breakpoint to the next (3145 to 6141) is almost exactly 5% crit chance. You would lose more than 3.18% crit chance.

But the answer is yes. It's beneficial. I switched crit to haste to reach the 6141 haste cap and my hps and effective healing went up. It becomes even MORE valuable once you get the 2-set MW bonus from the Tier 15 set, which, pretty much, is a MUST HAVE set bonus. I've been very unlucky with my drops, but when I get the set bonus I expect my heals to increase quite a lot.

[Anticard]

Currently sitting at the 9145 break point. I would wait until you have the gear level to do it, but it is worth aiming for in my opinion.

[chorkpop]

Did you swap out a bunch of gems to get to 9145? I think I can just make it there with gems.

[Angrie]

Currently sitting at the 9145 break point. I would wait until you have the gear level to do it, but it is worth aiming for in my opinion.

You realize that if a Renewing mist crits is the same as gaining a tick? Losing 5% crit on ALL of your Renewing Mists to gain 1 tick is not worth it.

Here is some napkin math:

Renewing Mist @ 3145 Haste ticks 11ticks x 3jumps = 33 Total ticks
With 25% crit (raid buffed of course) 8.25 ticks will crit

Renewing Mist @ 6141 Haste ticks 12 ticks x 3jumps = 36 Total ticks
With 22% crit 7.92 ticks will crit

Renewing Mist @ 13737(in serpent stance) will tick 13ticks x 3jumps = 39 Total Ticks
With 18% crit 7.02 ticks will crit

This is napkin math of course, but if the (#of ticks gained is less than the #of Crits lost), it's not worth doing.


Then there is Uplift. Uplift only benefits from Crit. Which is also a big chunk of any mistweavers healing.

Having said that, the 3145 and 6141 haste caps are acceptable because they do not reduce your output with Uplift or Renewing Mist at the current gear level.

[Deleted]

Renewing Mist @ 6141 Haste ticks 12 ticks x 3jumps = 36 Total ticks
With 22% crit 7.92 ticks will crit

Renewing Mist @ 13737(in serpent stance) will tick 13ticks x 3jumps = 39 Total Ticks
With 18% crit 7.02 ticks will crit

This is napkin math of course, but if the (#of ticks gained is less than the #of Crits lost), it's not worth doing.

So, in other words:
ReM @ 6141 Haste & 22% crit equals 12 * 3 + 7.92 = 43.92 ticks
ReM @ 13737 (w/SWS) & 18% crit equals 13 * 3 + 7.02 = 46.02 ticks

That's still healing equal to 2.1 ticks gained as far as I see it?

I'm not arguing the validity of your argument (getting to 38.89% in Serpent Stance sacrifices a lot of other stats) but your napkin math doesn't quite cut it I think?

[Astraios]

So, in other words:
ReM @ 6141 Haste & 22% crit equals 12 * 3 + 7.92 = 43.92 ticks
ReM @ 13737 (w/SWS) & 18% crit equals 13 * 3 + 7.02 = 46.02 ticks

That's still healing equal to 2.1 ticks gained as far as I see it?

I'm not arguing the validity of your argument (getting to 38.89% in Serpent Stance sacrifices a lot of other stats) but your napkin math doesn't quite cut it I think?

His math is wrong, because 3000 haste equates to 5% crit. This means the breakpoints between crit/haste are not as favorable to haste as he shows, and then theres the fact that uplift scales primarily off of crit etc.

[Angrie]

His math is wrong, because 3000 haste equates to 5% crit. This means the breakpoints between crit/haste are not as favorable to haste as he shows, and then theres the fact that uplift scales primarily off of crit etc.

The crit numbers I just pulled out from no where. Technically we 'scale' better with crit than haste.

Look at the difference:

Haste
Renewing Mist
Soothing Mist
Hard-casted Surging Mist
Hard-casted Enveloping Mist
Enveloping Mist HoT
Chi Burst cast
Spinning Crane Kick
Eminence

Crit
Renewing Mist
Soothing Mist
Healing Spheres
Mastery Spheres
Surging Mist
Enveloping Mist HoT
Chi Burst
Chi Wave
Zen Sphere
Revival
Chi Torpedo
Spinning Crane Kick
Expel Harm
Uplift
Mana Tea Stacking
Eminence


As i said previously, in regards to Renewing Mist Crit > Haste because we get double the healing for a crit (add in meta gems 3%). The only reason we consider the haste cap is because we get free stats from Stance of the Wise Serpent. Would we still value haste if we didn't have 50% free haste? Probably not.

It's ok, if no one agrees with what has been said. Some people need a sticky or a 'guide' to tell them what to do, not common sense.

TL;DR - Haste cap is there because of free stats from our Stance. More than 1 point of haste over the 3145 or 6141 caps is wasted points that could go to a better stat (crit)

[Deleted]

His math is wrong, because 3000 haste equates to 5% crit. This means the breakpoints between crit/haste are not as favorable to haste as he shows, and then theres the fact that uplift scales primarily off of crit etc.

I just wanted to give him a broad hint that you don't simply get "1 tick" from being at a haste breakpoint but 3 (33 -> 36 -> 39).
He is / was comparing the crits that appear over all ReM's (of a single cast) to a single new tick.

Again: I don't say he's wrong, sacrifing too many stats to get to the 13th tick breakpoint probably isn't worth it at this point (except for some gimmicks like RPPM mechanic stacking or so).

[Deleted]

TL;DR - Haste cap is there because of free stats from our Stance. More than 1 point of haste over the 3145 or 6141 caps is wasted points that could go to a better stat (crit)

This isn't true, as someone who has ran both a pure haste build and currently my balanced build they're both on equal terms and both have their own strengths and weaknesses. Haste scales equally as well if you look at chi returned and the fact you get more ticks of ReM in while people are damaged, there's also RPPM to take into account nowadays as well.

Basically we're in a situation with the 50% free haste where we can get to absurd levels of haste and Chi generation as a result which is going to be unarguably better when you can get in a lot of effective uplifts. Think garalon, tortos, any fight with huge AE damage/little overheal basically. Where crit is strong is the opposite situation, where you need to do as much effective healing within a small time-span. You should be gearing primarily haste, then going to crit. You can't go from full crit gear to a full haste build, but you can go from a full haste build into a traditional balanced build as I have.

[Angrie]

I just wanted to give him a broad hint that you don't simply get "1 tick" from being at a haste breakpoint but 3 (33 -> 36 -> 39).
He is / was comparing the crits that appear over all ReM's (of a single cast) to a single new tick.

Again: I don't say he's wrong, sacrifing too many stats to get to the 13th tick breakpoint probably isn't worth it at this point (except for some gimmicks like RPPM mechanic stacking or so).

Personally i believe that you want to have the 3145haste cap throughout all tiers of raiding. Using the first haste cap will allow you to put the rest of your stats into the strongest stat.

However, i believe that top tier MW monks are getting the 6141haste cap because their haste in BiS Crit gear makes them have about 4000 haste. Reforging to the 6141 haste cap then is more beneficial than 3145 haste with reforging into mastery. This is under the assumption that those players and I view the same gear as best in slot.

[Deleted]

Oh, and haste is almost definitely better if you wish to retain Chi Brew but want to enjoy being able to diversify your chi expenditure between raid & tank healing.

[Angrie]

This isn't true, as someone who has ran both a pure haste build and currently my balanced build they're both on equal terms and both have their own strengths and weaknesses. Haste scales equally as well if you look at chi returned and the fact you get more ticks of ReM in while people are damaged, there's also RPPM to take into account nowadays as well.

Basically we're in a situation with the 50% free haste where we can get to absurd levels of haste and Chi generation as a result which is going to be unarguably better when you can get in a lot of effective uplifts. Think garalon, tortos, any fight with huge AE damage/little overheal basically. Where crit is strong is the opposite situation, where you need to do as much effective healing within a small time-span. You should be gearing primarily haste, then going to crit. You can't go from full crit gear to a full haste build, but you can go from a full haste build into a traditional balanced build as I have.

I wrote something to you about 3 times, but i've come to the conclusion that no amount of words will get you to understand. No matter what I say, though true, you'll reply with some banter along the lines of "I'm 5/13 heroic, therefore i'm better than you." To which i'll reply with, "i'm 1/13H and your guild doesn't define you as an intelligent player/person/mathematician/philosopher." No offense, but you seem like you are one of those "everyone look at what i'm doing" people. So instead of going through all that and annoying people, i'll just say, you pay for your game, do what you want.

But for the sake of the discussion and to pick at what you said:
You have 6165haste, why are you not continuing to use the pure haste?
You realize that 1 Uplift Crit is equal to 2 non-crit Uplifts? Making crit more efficient even if you generate more chi through haste.
There are also variables such the rest of the "crit scaling" heals to factor in.
ie: Haste generates more Mastery Spheres, but Crit will make them heal for more (1crit sphere = 2 normal spheres). How much haste do you need to outweigh spheres criting?

Mathematically and theoretically i'm correct. I'd like to see your proof that crit is not always better than haste in every scenario. Please show your work too.

[Lorilaith]

Another thing to consider is that haste affects spells 100% of the time whereas crit is always a chance. Not saying crit is a bad way to go though, it's just haste is consistent and reliable.

[WskyDK]

I wrote something to you about 3 times, but i've come to the conclusion that no amount of words will get you to understand. No matter what I say, though true, you'll reply with some banter along the lines of "I'm 5/13 heroic, therefore i'm better than you." To which i'll reply with, "i'm 1/13H and your guild doesn't define you as an intelligent player/person/mathematician/philosopher." No offense, but you seem like you are one of those "everyone look at what i'm doing" people. So instead of going through all that and annoying people, i'll just say, you pay for your game, do what you want.

But for the sake of the discussion and to pick at what you said:
You have 6165haste, why are you not continuing to use the pure haste?
You realize that 1 Uplift Crit is equal to 2 non-crit Uplifts? Making crit more efficient even if you generate more chi through haste.
There are also variables such the rest of the "crit scaling" heals to factor in.
ie: Haste generates more Mastery Spheres, but Crit will make them heal for more (1crit sphere = 2 normal spheres). How much haste do you need to outweigh spheres criting?

Mathematically and theoretically i'm correct. I'd like to see your proof that crit is not always better than haste in every scenario. Please show your work too.

It all comes down to efficiency. If you don't need a huge heal, and your heal crits, it's a wasted, whereas a haste build allows you to reliably generate chi (mana) and deal with large amounts of incoming aoe damage (efficiently) without overhealing.
Reglitch has already stated that both builds are about equal, but they have their niche.
Stomping your feet and saying crit is always better does nothing but hurt the community (especially when you haven't back up anything mathematically yourself)