[Fire] Why Haste > Mastery??

[Bemlikanz]

Ok... I know extra-thicks from NT and scaling with frost bomb, OK. But, anyone ever tried mastery Living bomb? Would it be good? Seriously, I spread NT to AOE, for example, and do this as LB would be the same, just need to be a tiny more carefully on refreshing than doing it in NT. Thought a lot of living bomb exploding at "the same time" critical explosion and rocking around seems to have more pottential than just apply nether tempest, because even though we increase our haste, we'll never have that X of haste to get NT thicking so much than in frost, for ecxample...
My explanation is a quite confuse, but I hope you get the point... Haste is good, but we'll never get a good amount of haste to make it awesome, right?

[Sheridanjohn]

Haste and mastery would be very close to even if you did not factor in combustion/mage bomb ticks, an increased number of pyroblasts per fight, easier management of raid mechanics (dont have to stand as still as long per cast).

---------- Post added 2013-04-07 at 01:04 AM ----------

Ok... I know extra-thicks from NT and scaling with frost bomb, OK. But, anyone ever tried mastery Living bomb? Would it be good? Seriously, I spread NT to AOE, for example, and do this as LB would be the same, just need to be a tiny more carefully on refreshing than doing it in NT. Thought a lot of living bomb exploding at "the same time" critical explosion and rocking around seems to have more pottential than just apply nether tempest, because even though we increase our haste, we'll never have that X of haste to get NT thicking so much than in frost, for ecxample...
My explanation is a quite confuse, but I hope you get the point... Haste is good, but we'll never get a good amount of haste to make it awesome, right?

Mastery does not effect Mage bombs as fire.

[Bemlikanz]

Oh got it! Thanks everyone!

[aggixx]

you get more chances at procs, not necessarily more procs. and you don't get that many more ticks unless you have a significant increase in haste.

No, you get more chances at procs and more procs (barring RNG of course, but that's an entirely different topic).

Faster casts means more hits per second that can proc but that is negated as the proc chance of each hit is reduced to the inverse of haste. However, in addition to that the chance of all hits to proc scales directly with haste.

Eg: A mage with no haste casts a 2.25 second fireball that has a 3.75% chance to proc a 1RPPM trinket. The same mage then gains 5% haste from the raid buff and can now cast 1 fireball every 2.143 seconds, the proc chance of that fireball is divided by his haste as to normalize the number of procs back to 1 RPPM (3.57% chance) but the proc chance is then multiplied by his haste as it is a direct multiplier in the RPPM formula.

That mage gained 5% haste, is casting 5% faster, is generating 5% more events per minute that are capable of proccing, and those events have the same chance to proc as before (3.75%). He will now be generating an average of 1.05 procs per minute, or a 5% increase in procs.

[voltaa]

The real thing that I have found this all comes down to (and feel free to disagree) is that on a basic level haste maths out as more damage per value than mastery for straight up casting and keeping bombs up (and getting that infintecimal better rppm chance) but when discussing this people tend to forget that fire isn't about casting and keeping your dots up, it's about get getting that big ass ignite evry minute and a half and spreading it EVERYWHERE. That's the difference maker, while math may suggest that I go haste, my experience with fire and how much even a single butt-ripping combustion can do for you on a fight tells me to risk it with a mastery focus. Do I depend on getting a massive combustion to do good damage? Yes I do. When I get it do I blow the haste focused mages I raid with out of the water? Of course, more risk, more reward. All too often people just take numbers and theorycrafting as gospel, saying "this is the math so this is what you do" while forgetting how the mechanics of the class you are and the fight at hand actually work

[Borin]

Well since the combustion nerfs I'll also vote for haste. In my experience also helps with mobility fights tanks to the reduced cast times and more than one time you will be able to complete the cast and move to avoid some mechanic of the boss.

Also if I'm remember correctly it also reduces gcd that will help with multidoting and with the increased damage of our mage bombs by patch 5.2 will benefit multitarget fights.

[voltaa]

Also if I'm remember correctly it also reduces gcd that will help with multidoting and with the increased damage of our mage bombs by patch 5.2 will benefit multitarget fights.

Bombs have a default 1 second GCD, it's in the tooltip and you need a large chunk of haste to make the bombs have the extra tick, which is why i stack mastery til I cant hit a new breakpoint, then dump it into haste

[willemh]

The real thing that I have found this all comes down to (and feel free to disagree) is that on a basic level haste maths out as more damage per value than mastery for straight up casting and keeping bombs up (and getting that infintecimal better rppm chance) but when discussing this people tend to forget that fire isn't about casting and keeping your dots up, it's about get getting that big ass ignite evry minute and a half and spreading it EVERYWHERE. That's the difference maker, while math may suggest that I go haste, my experience with fire and how much even a single butt-ripping combustion can do for you on a fight tells me to risk it with a mastery focus. Do I depend on getting a massive combustion to do good damage? Yes I do. When I get it do I blow the haste focused mages I raid with out of the water? Of course, more risk, more reward. All too often people just take numbers and theorycrafting as gospel, saying "this is the math so this is what you do" while forgetting how the mechanics of the class you are and the fight at hand actually work

These posts make very little sense without math backing up your claim. Why on earth would it matter if your combustion hits harder or if it hits less hard but ticks more often? Which stat is best depends only on numbers, no random story about 'big ignites'.

[aggixx]

Bombs have a default 1 second GCD, it's in the tooltip and you need a large chunk of haste to make the bombs have the extra tick, which is why i stack mastery til I cant hit a new breakpoint, then dump it into haste

No, no they don't... If you had read the tooltips you would know only Living Bomb has a 1 second GCD.

[Polarthief]

Damage per cast time.

Oh so it's DPET with a different third letter.

---------- Post added 2013-04-07 at 11:03 PM ----------

If haste outweights mastery, Is it going to be fine to get items with no mastery at all?

That'd be impossible unless you just flat out ignore your 2P/4P, which would mean you're just really, REALLY, dumb.

Granted, EXCEPT for your tier items, that's what you SHOULD be shooting for anyway, and with the majority of cloth items having Crit as one stat, and the other almost always being Hit or Haste, it won't be too hard. Hell, until I got my tier piece on Thursday, my boots (which were from Tsulong) was my ONLY piece with Mastery on it.

[Skidd]

Mastery pretty much only affects Ignite and Combustion damage. Haste reduces the casting time of Fireball, not only increasing its overall damage over a period of time, but also increases the frequency of Hot Streak/Pyroblast! procs, reduces your global cooldown, and adds extra ticks to Ignite, Pyroblast and Combustion, all of which make a fairly significant portion of your overall damage, and also adds ticks to Nether Tempest/Living Bomb and reduces the cooldown of Frost Bomb.

Haste does not effect ignite, ignite has a fixed duration and ticks.

---------- Post added 2013-04-08 at 01:37 PM ----------

Bombs have a default 1 second GCD, it's in the tooltip and you need a large chunk of haste to make the bombs have the extra tick, which is why i stack mastery til I cant hit a new breakpoint, then dump it into haste

NT and FB all have a 1.5 second GCD, except living bomb which is 1 second GCD

[Llyth]

it's pretty weird, but lately I've been getting haste valued -much- higher than both crit and mastery on my sims. It might be because I can reach another tick of combust, but the difference is getting bigger and bigger.

Current values at 427 ilvl are Crit: 3.42, Mastery: 3.31 and Haste: at 4.11. Tried every kind of movement and switched heroic horridon wand to heroic staff, but the difference was almost nothing. Anyone getting the same phenomenon?

[voltaa]

These posts make very little sense without math backing up your claim. Why on earth would it matter if your combustion hits harder or if it hits less hard but ticks more often? Which stat is best depends only on numbers, no random story about 'big ignites'.

The point is that until I can reach that next tick, I will value bigger ticks, when I can get an extra tick I will value more ticks

as I said in an earlier post "i stack mastery til I cant hit a new breakpoint, then dump it into haste"