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  1. #1

    Idea to tone down burst

    It seems like this MoP pvp has been dominated by two things so far, lots of CC and unhealable burst. I see a lot of people complaining about burst from various classes and it seems that once blizzard tones down/nerfs one classes burst another class rises up and starts globaling people.

    So I was just contemplating it while walking between classes and thought of a way to sorta "normalize" pvp burst. By no means do I believe this is a perfect solution and that implementing this will solve all the problems, it is just an idea.

    I know one of the large problems is that nerfing any burst in PVP could have adverse effects on PVE balance which is a constant gripe between PVE'ers and PVP'ers. I also know that blizzard has stated they did not want to give more abilities the treatment they gave to Colossal Smash (operated differently in PVE and PVP) tho I don't have the actual blue post on the subject. So what I propose is a blanket change to damage in PVP situations akin to how Battle Fatigue is a blanket change to healing in PVP.

    My idea has two ways I could see it being implemented and it works kinda like this:

    Option 1: All non white hits and anything that isn't already a dot is applied as a damage over time affect. Lets say divided by 3 and applied every 1.5 seconds. So if I hit random Joe #1 in arena for what would be 150k normally it would instead by 3 ticks of 50k damage. This would of course have numbers adjusted and tuned to make sure it works out.

    Option 2: There is a damage "gate" so that if an attack were to hit over a certain threshold it would be cut down to a damage over time affect. Lets use 100k as the damage gate for sake of argument so that any attack that would normally hit for 225k would hit for 2 ticks of 100k damage than 1 tick of 25k damage. This would continue for all multiples of whatever the damage gate is so 100k 100k 100k then whatever is left over, so on and so forth.

    In both of these situations the damage over time effects would stack so if I hit someone for 300k and then 150k (using Option 1) it would turn into a 100k...150k...150k...50k.

    This would all need to be fine tuned and have the numbers adjusted to make sure people will still die. Can't have it making healers immortal can we? :P

    I just want to see what people think of this idea It's pretty rough seeing as I thought of it while essentially day dreaming.

  2. #2
    Turn attacks into dots? I dunno...

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by pkm View Post
    Turn attacks into dots? I dunno...
    That's kinda the sentiment that leads me to feel the 2nd option is the better of the two because it can be adjusted to only curb the "globaling burst" and leave most of the rest of the game unaffected.

  4. #4
    Sounds like it would effect gameplay a lot, the first option especially sounds very boring to me. I think burst is actually in a really good place at the moment. The fun factor is there, i mean..who doesn't like destroying someone in a few seconds? i know i do. Also, every healer has a single gcd spell (or more) that can negate burst attempts. I suppose the game is being more balanced towards 3v3 now (there was enough complaining in cata about blizzards attempts to balance rbgs over arena) in that healer cooldowns and smart defensive cooldowns use (trinket) is more important.

    You would need to fine tune both your options a hell of a lot to make sure healers can't heal through damage up to the point where you would need to nerf healing a lot. Blizzard already tried low burst (to some degree) in TBC and it resulted in a god mode healer that could use it's most efficient heal without a cast time.

    The problem really lies with instant CC. Not sure why it gets worse with every patch.

  5. #5
    The Insane apepi's Avatar
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    I actually thought of something like this, or maybe just make it were a person can not die 100% to 0% in say 3 seconds.
    Time...line? Time isn't made out of lines. It is made out of circles. That is why clocks are round. ~ Caboose

  6. #6
    Increase health pools by 100% in arenas. Cut mana regeneration by 33% in arenas and % based heals by 50%. There ya go, no more bursting people down 100-0 and healers will go oom but are still needed.

  7. #7
    the whole IDEA of pvp is to set up burst so you can kill someone. if you take out the burst the whole "flavor" of the game goes away.

    the magic mixture is that you need the right ratio of burst and amount of CC per class for every combination of 3 classes of each specs(excluding prot/arcane/etc specs that hardly work). and the "progress on this issue" is slowed down as each expansion every class gets something new, maybe a new class pops up which adds even more stuff to the table...you see where i am going with this?

    if both your partners are CCd and they have no outs, you HAVE to die. else the game doesnt work.

  8. #8
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    Reducing burst is dangerous atm since healers have so many instant cast heals and immunities to interrupts/silences. This is the card we've been dealt, it will be revamped in next expansion.

  9. #9
    Herald of the Titans DiscoGhost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kejinx View Post
    Reducing burst is dangerous atm since healers have so many instant cast heals and immunities to interrupts/silences.
    and to counter it there are so many blankets also
    You can tune a piano, but you can't tuna fish.

  10. #10
    The Insane apepi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kejinx View Post
    Reducing burst is dangerous atm since healers have so many instant cast heals and immunities to interrupts/silences. This is the card we've been dealt, it will be revamped in next expansion.
    Because there is no hard hitting damage instant cast....
    Time...line? Time isn't made out of lines. It is made out of circles. That is why clocks are round. ~ Caboose

  11. #11
    I am Murloc! Terahertz's Avatar
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    Neither options could work. Ever.

    The dot would gimp certain classes a lot, while perhaps even favoring others.

    The damage gate would AGAIN gimp certain classes A LOT, while not even affecting others AT ALL.

    The problem with burst isn't even about the damage itself, but the damage boosts/CDs. In MoP basically every class has at least some idiotic "wings" cooldown where they can pop it and tunnel someone down.

    Just look at shamans, who were sort of known for not having so many burst CDs. Same goes for druids, where only ferals had a burst CD. Now balance druids have >3< burst CDs. Really stupid.

  12. #12
    I can only imagine how potentially powerful Hand of Purity would become.

    70% DoT reduction + 10% reduction for 6 secs on a 30 sec cooldown. Have to give up double hand spells though.

  13. #13
    Blizzard has no problems in tuning down burst, we dont need ideas on this front.

    All they have a hard time with is finding the balance. You kinda answered yourself within your first line of text: "unhealable burst".

    If all burst is healable, noone in a team with a healer will die anymore, that cant be the goal either.
    You see that even with the OP tools we still have (insane burst, blanket silnces and instant CC) we have a hard time doing the killing blow a lot of times.

    Nerf burst or silences or CC without adopting healing and healers are unkillable.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-09 at 08:33 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by thisnamesucks View Post
    Increase health pools by 100% in arenas. Cut mana regeneration by 33% in arenas and % based heals by 50%. There ya go, no more bursting people down 100-0 and healers will go oom but are still needed.
    Even tho your numbers might need a little tweaking i like the direction this is going.

  14. #14
    Deleted
    You'd end up with huge stacks of "rolling ignites" (if you remember that mechanic). So you'd build up a huge damage stack then CC healer and watch the dps target die hopelessly to the accumulated damage.

  15. #15
    Deleted
    all they will do this expansion is tweak pvp power, resi and battle fatigue to try make it somewhat slower paced. its beyond fixing this expansion due to the fact that "they dont like forcing people to re-learn how to play their class"

  16. #16
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Wootylicious View Post
    all they will do this expansion is tweak pvp power, resi and battle fatigue to try make it somewhat slower paced. its beyond fixing this expansion due to the fact that "they dont like forcing people to re-learn how to play their class"
    Well the numbers wont really change with 5.3 changes. Also making damage into dots isnt something which would make you re-learn your class, and they tune down burst all the time. The biggest problem is PVE TRINKETS right now, and that is getting fixed in 5.3 by ilvl cap, soo, dont really know what this topic is about. They would never do change like this because it wouldnt be fun at all, what is point of burst class and dot class then? Where are the big numbers? They are going to tune down burst by increasing base ressilience, and tuning the numbers on burst cd's. So no this will never happen.

  17. #17
    Herald of the Titans Darksoldierr's Avatar
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    I think we can already confirm, that Blizzard think, the current game is fine as it is, there were 2 major patches so far this expansion, and neither adressed the burst issue head on.

    Buy the next expansion, everything will be better!
    Time is on our side
    Brutal Gladiator Enhancement Shaman *rawr*

  18. #18
    They should have split pve and pvp toolsets long ago, making it possible to adjust one without touching the other.

    In pve, multitudes of cds are a good thing, as they can be combined/timed to push out large numbers when needed, hence allowing blizz to create fights around that. They experimented with the requirement part @ hc spine 25, but only a few specs had the tools back then, resulting in complaints(rightfully) now most ppl can do on demand burst (dps and healing wise). Something that evolved from adding focus on a specific part of pve (burst X down/bring it to Y% asap/prepare for huge raiddmg= heal like mad) resulted in a distorded "Burst or be bursted" gameplay in arena. Some of these are even high enough to kill you in 1-2 sec even if you have 70% dmg reduction ontop of your 65% resilence (requires 2 ppl attacking tho).

    The other way around, changes made for pvp balance did land quite a hit on certain bossfights, the purge nerf (1 dispell instead of 2) happened while alot of guilds were working on the omnitron hc encounter in bwd, where dispelling a multistack shield was a key element of the fight, pre nerf it went away faster and (in enhancements case) was dispellable without going oom from doing so, after the purge nerf you needed 2 ppl on dispell duty or have 1 enh shammy go literally oom on dispells and take twice as long as before. This behaviour got repeated on spirit kings hc in msv where the purge glyph (2 instead of 1 dispell baseline) got a cooldown added to it.

  19. #19
    Burst is meant to be addressed via Resilience. The problem is they added PvP Power, so any mitigation provided by Resilience was lost, and burst was back to its ridiculous levels. With the upcoming patch, higher base resilience, and next to no PvP Power, burst should be be under control. No need for counter-intuitive mechanisms

    Only concern would be that healing might become too powerful (as it happened in prior expansions as Resilience went up) but at least this time they have Battle Fatigue to fine-tune that.

  20. #20
    Deleted
    The problem of burst comes down to base damage skills once again being too high out of the gate and stat inflation has gone haywire on top of it. (just checkout how high ilevels are going this expansion from 463 blues to 541 hc thunderforged and an Ilevel 600 back.)

    Damage was also already quite high before pvp power came into the mix and now its actually having an impact burst has gone so crazy they need to bandaid everyone to 65% resil.

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