1. #3941
    Grats on the kill Envy!

  2. #3942
    Herald of the Titans Dangg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Potentio View Post
    You cannot just say that we are on cycle number 3 already and because of that Lei Shen is harder.

    Majordomo first kill occurred Jul 8 for Paragon. Rag Jul 19. That's 11 days of progress.
    For Envy the dates are Jul 9 and Jul 28. 19 days of progress
    For Exorsus the dates are Jul 10 and Aug 10. 1 month of progress
    For Method Jul 8 and Jul 26. 18 days of progress
    For Blood Legion Jul 10 and Aug 12. 1 month of progress

    Now let's take a look at the amount of time it took these guilds to progress from Twins to Lei Shen:

    Paragon: 7 days of progress < 11 days of progress
    Method: 6 days of progress < 18 days of progress
    Envy: 17 days of progress < 19 days of progress
    Exorsus: 13 days of progress < 1 month
    Blood Legion: 12 days of progress < 1 month

    Now granted that some of these guilds have improved their roster over the years, especially BL and Exorsus (if we look at the rankings chance), but there is no way you can twist the disparity between the time it took to kill each end boss to make it look like Lei Shen is actually the harder one. No way that all of those guilds are now thrice as good as they were back then.

    Also. If we take 1 month as the marker after the first kill by Paragon, a total of 23 guilds killed Ragnaros from Jul 19 to Aug 19, that included 6 10man guilds. At the 2-week-mark the situation was exactly the same as it is now with Lei Shen, besides the fact that just 1 10man kill has occurred, not 2.

    Clearly this data says nothing, but I believe it is also wisely considered to be the "truth" that Ragnaros was much easier on 10man than on 25man?

    You also have to look at how many wipes each boss took. Going from a minimum of 550 wipes (Paragon, 700+ for the others!) to a minimum of 340 makes it look like Ragnaros was actually harder. Again, top guild players just don't get TWICE as good in two years.

    Lei Shen also has much more RNG involved in terms of who is the person getting Static Shock. Can he solosoak it or not? That alone can determine the course of many tries in my eyes.

    TL;DR: So far it seems more like the opposite.
    Hilarious that people who never did any of those fights among the world first/pre nerf tell others who obviously experienced the progress which one is harder based on stats.

    So far we have raiders from Method, Envy and Blood Legion all agreeing that it's the hardest.
    Last edited by Dangg; 2013-04-10 at 01:37 AM.

  3. #3943
    Quote Originally Posted by LordBalkoth View Post
    Let me introduce a completely arbitrary standard. How long did it take you to kill a boss a 2nd time after you killed him the first time. I remember watching Paragon wipe on Rag for HOURS when they were giving a presentation at a fan show after their world first kill. I remember watching Vodka wipe endlessly on rag (on their stream) after they killed him the first time. To me Rag>Lei Shen based on this subjective reasoning.

    But thats no measurment whatsoever, Envy's second Ragnaros kill was on the second pull of the week, the third kill, on the 4th pull, while Paragon was wiping for ages at that presentation, and i can easily say Paragon was a better raiding team than Envy.

  4. #3944
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Dangg View Post
    Hilarious that people who never did any of those fights among the world first/pre nerf tell others who obviously experienced the progress which one is harder based on stats.

    So far we have raiders from Method, Envy and Blood Legion all agreeing that it's the hardest.
    Yet it took them 50% less time to kill it than Ragnaros. Maybe they say it because their rank is better this time around?
    Last edited by mmoc4282a3f415; 2013-04-10 at 01:46 AM.

  5. #3945
    I dont get where youre coming up with ragnaros info on the amount of pulls, but Envy's pulls were lower on Ragnaros than they are on Lei-shen, or around the same, doubt any top guild wiped on Rag 700 times. Still think Lei-Shen is by no means harder than Yogg0 or Rag25hc.

  6. #3946
    Quote Originally Posted by JimmyMcNulty View Post
    But thats no measurment whatsoever, Envy's second Ragnaros kill was on the second pull of the week, the third kill, on the 4th pull, while Paragon was wiping for ages at that presentation, and i can easily say Paragon was a better raiding team than Envy.
    I never said my comparison was objective just arbitrary. Compare apples to apples. Envy killed Rag way after Paragon with way better gear and after 2 videos were released. Quite frankly, kills that come AFTER videos are released don't matter.

    To the poster who said something about people telling world first guilds which boss is harder without fighting them themselves.

    a)Guilds lie. Every tier "top" guilds thank blizzard for the "wonderful" tier and well designed bosses and other crap. How often do you see a top guild calling blizzard out for lazy/incompetent design? Part of the whole deal is being a sycophant.

    b)People frequently place emphasis on more recent things. It is part of human nature. Speaking objectively, raiding scene got gutted vs firelands not better. For the horde left the building, ensidia disappeared, vodka disappeared (a few castaways got into exodus), paragon got gutted to 10 man. If you use cold hard numbers instead of what guilds say, Rag>Lei Shen as was indicated by one of the previous posters.

  7. #3947
    i resubbed after over a year of not playing wow, just because ToT is ulduar style raid.

    the raid is cool and challenging.

  8. #3948
    Quote Originally Posted by LordBalkoth View Post
    I never said my comparison was objective just arbitrary. Compare apples to apples. Envy killed Rag way after Paragon with way better gear and after 2 videos were released. Quite frankly, kills that come AFTER videos are released don't matter.
    Not that it really matters....but the comparison i did was speaking of the same raiding week, so it was actually paragons 3rd or 4th kill when it was Envy's second, so Paragon was the one outgearing Envy at that point, and Envy killed Rag 1 day after the Paragon video came out, and when youre progressing for 2 weeks on a boss, you have your plan laid down, you're dying because you cannot execute it, you dont see paragons video and then go "oh, its like this" and kill it the next raid. Same goes for every "hard" boss.

  9. #3949
    Quote Originally Posted by mandus View Post
    i resubbed after over a year of not playing wow, just because ToT is ulduar style raid.

    the raid is cool and challenging.
    How is it in any way "ulduar style", and what even is ulduar style? If anything ToT is more reminiscent of ICC without heavy emphasis on end wing bosses.
    Your persistence of vision does not come without great sacrifice. Let go of the tangible mass of your mind, it is only an illusion. There is no escape.. For the soul burns on everlasting encapsulated within infinite time. A thousand year journey at the blink of an eye... Humanity is dust..

  10. #3950
    Quote Originally Posted by Vakna View Post
    How is it in any way "ulduar style", and what even is ulduar style? If anything ToT is more reminiscent of ICC without heavy emphasis on end wing bosses.
    10+ bosses in one big place. instead of 3-4 bosses over 3 areas.

  11. #3951
    Quote Originally Posted by Dangg View Post
    Hilarious that people who never did any of those fights among the world first/pre nerf tell others who obviously experienced the progress which one is harder based on stats.

    So far we have raiders from Method, Envy and Blood Legion all agreeing that it's the hardest.
    It's called self inflation. There's a reason every time a guild gets a world first they claim it's hardest boss in WoW. They're taking their world first and using it as a way to demean the world firsts before them, to say the guild who beat them on the last boss sucks because that boss was easier.

    Seriously, these guilds claim every last tier boss that they get the world first kill on is the hardest ever.
    Last edited by Millie; 2013-04-10 at 03:51 AM.

  12. #3952
    Quote Originally Posted by Millie View Post
    It's called self inflation. There's a reason every time a guild gets a world first they claim it's hardest boss in WoW. They're taking their world first and using it as a way to demean the world firsts before them, to say the guild who beat them on the last boss sucks because that boss was easier.

    Seriously, these guilds claim every last tier boss that they get the world first kill on is the hardest ever.
    ^ 10x Thumbs up ^

  13. #3953
    Quote Originally Posted by Millie View Post
    It's called self inflation. There's a reason every time a guild gets a world first they claim it's hardest boss in WoW. They're taking their world first and using it as a way to demean the world firsts before them, to say the guild who beat them on the last boss sucks because that boss was easier.

    Seriously, these guilds claim every last tier boss that they get the world first kill on is the hardest ever.
    Except that no.
    Your persistence of vision does not come without great sacrifice. Let go of the tangible mass of your mind, it is only an illusion. There is no escape.. For the soul burns on everlasting encapsulated within infinite time. A thousand year journey at the blink of an eye... Humanity is dust..

  14. #3954
    bug trio with kri last was the hardest boss ever; anyone denying this is a self inflator.

    Infracted; (by Sonnillon)
    Last edited by Sonnillon; 2013-04-11 at 06:24 AM.

  15. #3955
    Quote Originally Posted by rigginsbear View Post
    The lack of kills on the boss going on the 3rd reset since Method killed it speaks volumes on the difficultly of the encounter as a whole. It was such a well tuned fight and will stand the test of time, no doubt.
    if you're thinking it like that, then HC LK should be above Lei-shen on the list


    Heres my list

    HC LK
    HC Al'Akir
    HC Lei-shen
    HC Rag
    Yogg+0
    Last edited by lappee; 2013-04-10 at 04:28 AM.

  16. #3956
    Quote Originally Posted by LordBalkoth View Post
    Guilds lie. Every tier "top" guilds thank blizzard for the "wonderful" tier and well designed bosses and other crap. How often do you see a top guild calling blizzard out for lazy/incompetent design? Part of the whole deal is being a sycophant.
    Slow down there, buddy. Dragon Soul wasn't that long ago.

  17. #3957
    Quote Originally Posted by Millie View Post
    It's called self inflation. There's a reason every time a guild gets a world first they claim it's hardest boss in WoW. They're taking their world first and using it as a way to demean the world firsts before them, to say the guild who beat them on the last boss sucks because that boss was easier.

    Seriously, these guilds claim every last tier boss that they get the world first kill on is the hardest ever.
    people talk about their own experiences (and ofc its nice to have bias opinion) but mostly these raiders dont have proper amount of experience (theres only handful of players that have been in top 5 guilds for a long while)

  18. #3958
    Quote Originally Posted by Potentio View Post
    You also have to look at how many wipes each boss took. Going from a minimum of 550 wipes (Paragon, 700+ for the others!) to a minimum of 340 makes it look like Ragnaros was actually harder. Again, top guild players just don't get TWICE as good in two years.

    Lei Shen also has much more RNG involved in terms of who is the person getting Static Shock. Can he solosoak it or not? That alone can determine the course of many tries in my eyes.

    TL;DR: So far it seems more like the opposite.
    I wouldn't say Lei Shen's RNG is any more than Ragnaros' was but I'll leave it for the guilds who've done both fights to judge. But from what I remember of it, RNG in the final phase of Rag could make it considerably easier and even effect whether you get a kill on an attempt.

    As far as wipe counts , I'm not sure that's as valid as a judge as overall time it takes for guilds to down encounters, or if it's even worth mentioning considering how some guilds choose to approach boss encounters that have no attempt limitations.

  19. #3959
    Quote Originally Posted by lappee View Post
    if you're thinking it like that, then HC LK should be above Lei-shen on the list


    Heres my list

    HC LK
    HC Al'Akir
    HC Lei-shen
    HC Rag
    Yogg+0
    H-Al'akir pre-nerf or after? Cause, you know, you guys were the only ones to kill it pre-nerf, so that limits the amount of people who can easily compare the boss to others.

  20. #3960
    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    H-Al'akir pre-nerf or after? Cause, you know, you guys were the only ones to kill it pre-nerf, so that limits the amount of people who can easily compare the boss to others.
    obviously pre-nerf, and thats why i said its my list.

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