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  1. #1001
    Well, been reading this thread for a couple of... what? weeks?.. seen the arguments of both sides. One side is elitist jerks who are happy to have their special snowflakes. Another is general baddies, who are not raiding because Blizz give normal raids for first side. It is very funny, but know this. While you are arguing who is who, it somehow became almost impossible to find a raider if your raider somehow is absent today. It is a Wednesday, clean CD, we have a Large populated server, and after yelling for an hour in /4 noone wants to raid. We have a medium (11 normal) progress, and all we needed was a decently (490+) geared Hunter, even with absolutely NO experience in boss kills. We just wanted a fast clear farm run. We got nothing.
    Lets take the situation to a new grade. Lets assume we lost our 10th raider for ever, and we need a replacement. With such a situation over people don't want to be bothered with raiding higher that lfr slack we possibly won't find any replacement. And, voila - I'm quite sure at least 7 of us won't leave for another guild, we'll just switch to pvp/whatever.
    That is where your raiders gone. Its simple, really. T15 normal raids are not hard, they are exhausting over any possible limits. Even in LFR. You do realise the difference between "hard" and "exhausting"? If not, I'll tell you. Exhausting is when you kill Durumu at 14th pull but NOONE in your raid actually feels like he wants to continue raiding today. Exhausting is when you kill Tortos on 4th pull, but your healers ask to end raid today because they are just overtired and want to rest. Do you really think that exhausting equals hard? Well, if you do, and if you love to feel like you've carried all day bags with sand after your raid is over, I'm glad for you. But don't think that majority of players want the same.
    People play game to relax and enjoy group play, its that easy. If people are forced to carry bags full of sand instead of enjoying group play, they leave. And that is where your raiders are now.
    Going to solutions how to fix this. The number of boss' mechanics should be decreased in a way boss not becomes a sensory overload shitstorm with a 2x a4 list of abilities to remember. Next. Raid moving on every boss MUST BE decreased at least for five times/or give every caster the ability to cast while moving. It is not a light athletics championship, we're here to kill Azeroth's sworn enemies, not for a running contest. Next. Every thing said before must be applied ONLY to normal modes, heroic modes are nice as they are for the people who do them.
    ps. And freaking god damn, let paladins' bubble and all alike abilities to cheese over oneshot mechanics, it is ridiculous when your bubble protects you from every damage in the game, except these 100000000 boss' oneshot abilities.
    Last edited by l33t; 2013-04-10 at 11:06 PM.

  2. #1002
    Deleted
    If you want successful 10 man raiding guild you have to have app 15 ppl who are raiders. You rotate people and that's how you raid constantly. Biggest mistakes I've seen were when there are 10-11 raiders. That simply doesn't work in a long run since most of the time that 1-2 guys will always be missing.
    We are 10 man normal guild, not done heroics in last tier and yes, it's harder for us to tackle into ToT. 1st boss is not a big deal, but Horridon is nasty. What's the problem?
    You need to use all of your abilities. CD's when needed, active mitigation, coordination, snares, stuns, moving. And do decent dps. Once you get that bosses will start dieing. You actually need to work out strategies which suits your group best. Yes, there are universal strategies but you need to tweak them.
    Guys in hc gear rushed through content, and finally for us who didn't do hc's, normals are challenging. So, yes, normals are aimed at the average players. But not ones from wotlk where all it was needed is to pump decent dmg and top healing and you would kill bosses.
    Raiders are still here.

  3. #1003
    Quote Originally Posted by Thalmar View Post
    So, yes, normals are aimed at the average players. But not ones from wotlk where all it was needed is to pump decent dmg and top healing and you would kill bosses.
    So, normal are aimed at the average player, after you've arbitrarily excluded most of the population when determining this "average". Gotcha.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "The bit about hardcore players not always caring about the long term interests of the game is spot on." -- Ghostcrawler
    "Do you want a game with no casuals so about 500 players?"

  4. #1004
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    So, normal are aimed at the average player, after you've arbitrarily excluded most of the population when determining this "average". Gotcha.
    If you think average are guys who can't use interrupts, move from fire or ppl who didn't adapt to new mechanics you are mistaken. If most of the population have troubles doing this, then I think you underestimate ppl in WoW.
    Last edited by mmoc9ff7ae5337; 2013-04-11 at 12:16 AM.

  5. #1005
    Quote Originally Posted by Thalmar View Post
    If you think average are guys who can't use interrupts, move from fire or ppl who didn't adapt to new mechanics you are mistaken.
    So, why are normal modes being ignored by 95% of the player population? If they are targeted at the average player, they are failing horrifically to achieve that goal.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "The bit about hardcore players not always caring about the long term interests of the game is spot on." -- Ghostcrawler
    "Do you want a game with no casuals so about 500 players?"

  6. #1006
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    So, why are normal modes being ignored by 95% of the player population? If they are targeted at the average player, they are failing horrifically to achieve that goal.
    Hm, I don't know where did you get 95% of the population but ok. If you want to raid in an unorganized group then you go LFR. If you don't have time, you go to LFR. Majority doesn't even raid.

  7. #1007
    Quote Originally Posted by Thalmar View Post
    If you think average are guys who can't use interrupts, move from fire or ppl who didn't adapt to new mechanics you are mistaken. If most of the population have troubles doing this, then I think you underestimate ppl in WoW.
    Actually, you are overestimating them.

    More than 70% of the guilds that started T14 couldnt complete it. Nor could they complete HoF.

    Normals are NOT tuned for the average player currently.

    Wrath Normal raids were tuned for the average players.

  8. #1008
    Quote Originally Posted by Thalmar View Post
    Hm, I don't know where did you get 95% of the population but ok.
    It comes from counting the number of guilds that have at least downed Horridon in ToT normal, then assuming 20 raider per guild. That's roughly 5% of the western player population.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "The bit about hardcore players not always caring about the long term interests of the game is spot on." -- Ghostcrawler
    "Do you want a game with no casuals so about 500 players?"

  9. #1009
    Quote Originally Posted by Schwert View Post
    You play on a dead realm.
    I play on full realm.

    I can't pug on the full realm - Which is the issue.
    Dead realms cannot be gauged and are an entirely different issue Blizzard won't deal with.

    Also; LFR does nothing for server communities.
    Wait, wait.. You guys don't have cross-server play/raiding/grouping or free server transfers yet? What? Isn't this somewhat of a standard now?
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  10. #1010
    Legendary! Firebert's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rajadog20 View Post
    Wait, wait.. You guys don't have cross-server play/raiding/grouping or free server transfers yet? What? Isn't this somewhat of a standard now?
    Cross-server play exists, but not for current tier raiding.

    Blizzard still makes money from transfers, so, no, they're not free.

    Rift's not a standard.
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  11. #1011
    Quote Originally Posted by Firebert View Post
    Cross-server play exists, but not for current tier raiding.

    Blizzard still makes money from transfers, so, no, they're not free.

    Rift's not a standard.
    Well, I guess im spoiled. I know you guys have cross-shard dungeon finders, so why not cross server chat channels/groups so you can put cross server? Is it just because blizzard thinks they can make more money by getting people to pay for transfers? Kinda stupid if thats why.
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  12. #1012
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rajadog20 View Post
    Is it just because blizzard thinks they can make more money by getting people to pay for transfers?
    Because Blizzard's a better business than Trion.
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  13. #1013
    Quote Originally Posted by Firebert View Post
    Because Blizzard's a better business than Trion.
    I wouldn't quite say that is "Better Business".

    You see, Trion's philosophy, is that you make the player happy, and they will give you money. Giving people free server transfers and allowing people to form groups and raid cross-shard lets people enjoy the game more, making people more happy, and eliminating the problem of "Dead Servers" that causes many to quit other games. I don't think limiting opportunities for the player to enjoy the game is "Better Business".
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  14. #1014
    Quote Originally Posted by Rajadog20 View Post
    I wouldn't quite say that is "Better Business".

    You see, Trion's philosophy, is that you make the player happy, and they will give you money. Giving people free server transfers and allowing people to form groups and raid cross-shard lets people enjoy the game more, making people more happy, and eliminating the problem of "Dead Servers" that causes many to quit other games. I don't think limiting opportunities for the player to enjoy the game is "Better Business".
    You're talking to a Wow fanboy. Game design and player happiness are completely dead last in their method of arguing. He'll scream "9 million" until his mouth foams and his eyes bulge.

    WoW fans tend to defend Blizzard from the perspective of an investor rather than a consumer.

  15. #1015
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Crashdummy View Post
    Actually, you are overestimating them.

    More than 70% of the guilds that started T14 couldnt complete it. Nor could they complete HoF.

    Normals are NOT tuned for the average player currently.

    Wrath Normal raids were tuned for the average players.
    Why not clear now? Nerf 10% + overgearing works wonderful. It's different today then in Wrath. Hof and Toes are not worthless content like Ulduar was when ToC came out. There is more content then ever. If you have troubles killing Horridon work harder or finish T14 bosses. Remember, they are still new until you kill them. Finally, tier before last isn't obsolete. If you can't tackle something go try HC MSV, should be ok.
    @Osmeric Are all guilds really listed on websites you watching? Accurate data?

    *edit I bet same amount of people bitched in Wrath that normals are too hard. Today we have LFR. It wouldn't be sane to have easier and easy difficulty and then super hard.
    Last edited by mmoc9ff7ae5337; 2013-04-11 at 01:11 AM.

  16. #1016
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Crashdummy View Post
    Actually, you are overestimating them.

    More than 70% of the guilds that started T14 couldnt complete it. Nor could they complete HoF.

    Normals are NOT tuned for the average player currently.

    Wrath Normal raids were tuned for the average players.
    But skill level is most probably NOT the reason they didnt complete it.

    Its more likely a logistical problem of not being able to find a leader or reliable raiders to maintain a proper guild.

    Lowering raid difficulties doesn't address this problem.

  17. #1017
    Quote Originally Posted by Thalmar View Post
    Why not clear now? Nerf 10% + overgearing works wonderful. It's different today then in Wrath. Hof and Toes are not worthless content like Ulduar was when ToC came out.
    Because you stick to a philosophy if you want it. You don't give people a taste of the golden apple then take it away. Players dealt with "You're casual, you see things 6 months after everyone else finishes" from launch to TBC. WotLK did away with that, weakened tier for justice, puggable normals, ect.

    If that never happened, maybe things would be less of an issue, but you gave the majority of WoW's players a taste of that then took it away, they aren't going to look at themselves and say "Oh, silly me, well that was fun while it lasted I better go do my dailies" They're just going to quit, since that ended, over 3 million have quit, surely not all of those are because of the changes, but some have.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-10 at 09:12 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by MacD123 View Post
    Lowering raid difficulties doesn't address this problem.
    If that was the case, raid participation and clearing percentage per capita wouldn't have been higher during WotLK with easier normals.

  18. #1018
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    Quote Originally Posted by Millie View Post
    Because you stick to a philosophy if you want it. You don't give people a taste of the golden apple then take it away. Players dealt with "You're casual, you see things 6 months after everyone else finishes" from launch to TBC. WotLK did away with that, weakened tier for justice, puggable normals, ect.

    If that never happened, maybe things would be less of an issue, but you gave the majority of WoW's players a taste of that then took it away, they aren't going to look at themselves and say "Oh, silly me, well that was fun while it lasted I better go do my dailies" They're just going to quit, since that ended, over 3 million have quit, surely not all of those are because of the changes, but some have.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-10 at 09:12 PM ----------



    If that was the case, raid participation and clearing percentage per capita wouldn't have been higher during WotLK with easier normals.
    And Cata with LFR expanded that. You can see end game content faster then ever. Next week you will kill final boss of this patch. More ppl will do this then in Wrath. And I seriously doubt 3 million ppl quit because of changes in raiding because 3 million never raided.
    And who is this everyone else? You honestly think that every raider finished BT after it was released. No, it was a journey, long one. Which lasted all of expansion. I killed Kil'jaiden one day before Wrath was released and was perfectly happy with it. Although "everyone else" killed it months before.
    *edit They actually have to gate progress in LFR because you would be able to finish all bosses in one week if not so.
    And on my server people pug normals (T14).
    Last edited by mmoc9ff7ae5337; 2013-04-11 at 01:21 AM.

  19. #1019
    Legendary! Firebert's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rajadog20 View Post
    I wouldn't quite say that is "Better Business".
    Huge subscription difference says otherwise.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-11 at 02:23 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Millie View Post
    You're talking to a Wow fanboy. Game design and player happiness are completely dead last in their method of arguing.
    Nah, I just understand that businesses are there to make money, and strike a balance between making the consumer happy and maximising profits.

    Realism, not fanboyism.
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  20. #1020
    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    I'm not disputing that. I'm disputing the notion that mechanics got more complex. They haven't. The bosses have gotten more complex by using more mechanics at once, sure. But they're still the same old mechanics.

    And it actually helps people understand new bosses if you refer to old bosses that way. Hence why I'm saying don't let the fireworks distract you from the fact that a bomb is still a bomb, that a debuff still needs to be decursed, standing in the fire is still a bad idea, dealing properly with adds is still more important than dpsing the boss and ignoring adds (unless you're in a domo style fight where you can ignore them safely), etc.

    Take Durumu for example, you'd think the maze is an entirely new concept? Well, for me it isn't. It's just one giant pool of fire that I'm trying not to stand in. I have no problem with the maze, others are overwhelmed by the "new concept" of getting through the maze.

    Oh, because it's so fun... take Dark Animus... dealing with the adds in the way they are may seem new, but all I see is a repitition of the Sulfuron fight. I haven't even left Molten Core yet and I've already shown you some similarities.
    Well if Durumu's maze is nothing but a void zone to you then I guess you can say anything that does damage to a player is just a void zone so it's all exactly like Vanilla.

    This is a stupid argument.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-11 at 01:27 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    So, why are normal modes being ignored by 95% of the player population? If they are targeted at the average player, they are failing horrifically to achieve that goal.
    For the same reason they always have been. They require more organisation than hitting a queue button.
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