Holy mother 10man nerf

[Crashdummy]

Look guys, i get what you are saying :
"i dont like the design".
Then ... don't play? Instead of just QQing ?
This is exactly the same as people QQing about a new ability, a pvp change, or whatever. No one is forcing you to play. But this is the way the game currently operates.

No, you dont get what we are saying.

We are saying: "We like the idea that there is Normal raiding for Normal raiders and Heroic raiding for heroic raiders, but right now, Normal raiding is NOT tuned for normal raiders, as its clearly showed by the fact that 75% of GUILDS (meaning, guild groups, no pugs) TRYING to do Normal couldnt completed after 5 months with item upgrades nerfing and this is NOT because they didnt try, since in the last 5 weeks the number of guilds completing old content grew by a whooping 50%".

So what we are asking is: Tune Normal raiding for Normal players, not heroic players like you. You SHOULD BREEZE through normals, because you are above its skill level requirement.

[HardCoder]

Look guys, i get what you are saying :
"i dont like the design".
Then ... don't play? Instead of just QQing ?
This is exactly the same as people QQing about a new ability, a pvp change, or whatever. No one is forcing you to play. But this is the way the game currently operates.

So, imagine someone tells you, hey there's this game, you probably won't like the way you're supposed to play it, but no one forces you to do it that way.

Sounds fun, huh.

[Crashdummy]

So if people dont kill the second boss its wasted dev time, but if people ignore the entire T14 (3 raids x 2 difficulties) then it is not wasted ? Dat logic

The fact is, you want to play the latest tier without having done any homework / preparation / gearing up. Its your fault if you are failing, not blizzards.
Youre the one not wanting to go T14 farming when you know deep down this is the current design... You are digging your own hole and asking for a ladder ..

People didnt ignore T14, they tried and failed because it was overtuned, now its old content yet they are still trying (and many normal raiders are still failing).

[Deleted]

No, you dont get what we are saying.

We are saying: "We like the idea that there is Normal raiding for Normal raiders and Heroic raiding for heroic raiders, but right now, TIER 15 Normal raiding is NOT tuned for TIER 13-T14 normal raiders, as its clearly showed by the fact that 75% of T13 GEARED GUILDS (meaning, guild groups, no pugs) TRYING to do T14 Normal couldnt completed after 5 months with item upgrades nerfing and this is NOT because they didnt try, since in the last 5 weeks the number of guilds completing old content grew by a whooping 50%" BECAUSE THERE WAS NERF TO HELP YOU GEAR UP FOR TIER 15 - you are still in T13,5 GEAR

So what we are asking is: Tune T15 Normal raiding for T13-14 geared Normal players, not T15 heroic players like you. You SHOULD BREEZE through normals, because you are above its skill level requirement.

fixed that for you, hopefuly you should see where you are going wrong (hint : you are trying to skip a tier)

[Deleted]

fixed that for you, hopefuly you should see where you are going wrong (hint : you are trying to skip a tier)

Everyone will want to skip a tier, this is why trying to force them to do all the tiers in order is shit design.

You are trying to sell a dogshit flavoured lolipop.

[Deleted]

So, imagine someone tells you, hey there's this game, you probably won't like the way you're supposed to play it, but no one forces you to do it that way.

Sounds fun, huh.

Thats your words.
What blizz is saying : heres 4 raids x 2 difficulties (3 of them nerfed to the ground) + Rep + Valor .
Please dont consume content too fast, as it takes time to produce. Please consume content in the right order and dont jump immediatly to the hardest raid.

Your reply : no. I wanna do the latest everything, now, without any gear.

---------- Post added 2013-04-12 at 11:22 AM ----------

Everyone will want to skip a tier, this is why trying to force them to do all the tiers in order is shit design.

You are trying to sell a dogshit flavoured lolipop.

Again, dont like the design dont play.
I personally think its a LOT better to have 3-4 raids out at the same time that are different difficulties, than trying to cater one raid for the entire wow population, which is very diverse. I think its a lot smarter.
But the problem is, some people want to do the latest content without having done anything before that.

the flavour on that lolipop is your opinion, and btw, i am not the one trying to sell it, blizzard is. its their game not mine, im just explaining to you how you should be doing it to avoid frustrating wipes, and you are replying - no no no no no no must do latest content

[Dukenukem]

So what we are asking is: Tune Normal raiding for Normal players, not heroic players like you. You SHOULD BREEZE through normals, because you are above its skill level requirement.

Well, if they wanted to Breeze trough normal they would tune it that way. They are opening LFR in a pace what they think Normal guild is progressing. We got 4/16 HC in T14 and we are hardly heroic raiders (12 Hours/Week cant do much) we are currently 10/12 and aiming to 12/12 this reset to perfectly match the LFR opening. Are we what is blizzard considering Normal guild or profesionals ahead the curve?

[Flashforcash]

It is really not enough. It may avoid more raiders bleed, but it wont bring back those that already quitted. They need to change their philosophy and make NORMAL raiding for NORMAL raiders.

You say how the Garalon fix is needed? It was needed 5 months ago. 40k guilds started T14, 13k killed Empress, and Garalon was the boss the stooped most guilds from progressing.

Blizzard even admitted that Garalon enrage timer was too tight, but they never fixed it untill now.

They need to be faster to fix the big roadblocks stopping normal progression, and they need to change their philosophy. Normal modes should have several less mechanics than heroics, less than what they have now, and the DPS and healing requirements should be lower so that Normal people can complete the tier before the next one launches.

you have LFR for that.

I go in for normal should still be challanging, but imo normal should always be that if you handle the mechanism right you get a kill. Im not that much into fights on normal that have tight enrange timers. Tight enrange timers is only for heroics fights imo.

[Deleted]

Thats your words.



Again, dont like the design dont play.

People don't like the design, and they aren't playing it.

Which is why the content is getting nerfed.

I personally think its a LOT better to have 3-4 raids out at the same time that are different difficulties, than trying to cater one raid for the entire wow population, which is very diverse. I think its a lot smarter.
But the problem is, some people want to do the latest content without having done anything before that.

It's not a problem, it's just what people are like.

the flavour on that lolipop is your opinion, and btw, i am not the one trying to sell it, blizzard is. its their game not mine, im just explaining to you how you should be doing it to avoid frustrating wipes, and you are replying - no no no no no no must do latest content

I'm talking about the general playerbase and how they act, not myself. I'm 7/12 normal mode and loving it. I am just not a fuckwit who thinks his likes and dislikes are the same as everyone elses.

[Crashdummy]

fixed that for you, hopefuly you should see where you are going wrong (hint : you are trying to skip a tier)

You havent fixed anythying, you have shown your complete lack of reading comprehension. I am talking about t14 completion rates. I havent even started considering t15 ones.

75% T14 NORMAL GUILDS COULDNT COMPLETE T14 in 5 months with item upgrades

[HardCoder]

Please dont consume content too fast, as it takes time to produce. Please consume content in the right order and dont jump immediatly to the hardest raid.

What you're not getting here is that the "right order" is, if you are one of the "casual raiders" who will probably not exist in the game after this year:

* Some cursory bullshit once you ding 90.
* Whatever the current normal tier is.
* One or two heroic bosses, if anyone's crazy enough to try.

You seem to think it should be more like:

* Some cursory bullshit once you ding 90.
* The normal tier that the cool kids blew through in 2 weeks, 3 months ago.
* One or two bosses from the current tier, if you have the ilevel to get in.

Imagine you are selling subscriptions to WoW. Suppose your income directly relates to the number of subscriptions you sell. Suppose your girlfriend is pregnant and you really like her, or, your mother is dying of cancer and needs money from you. Which version of the above would you prefer?

[Deleted]

You havent fixed anythying, you have shown your complete lack of reading comprehension. I am talking about t14 completion rates. I havent even started considering t15 ones.

75% T14 NORMAL GUILDS COULDNT COMPLETE T14 in 5 months with item upgrades

Yeah thats what i said.. If you can't complete T14 while T14 is current, (yes you suck but) they are getting nerfed in T15 so you can THEN, during T15, still kill them and gear up to be in the place Blizzard wants you to be for T15.

What you are saying is 'We couldn't beat T14 while it was current, and we can't beat T15 while its current, but we are definitly not going to do T14 while T15 is current.

suit yourself lol !

[Candiman]

Eiffel I think you missunderstand the point he is trying to make. It's not that people shouldn't do the previous teir but that if only 25% of raids succeed in completing a teir then that teir was overtuned.

[Deleted]

snip

Please don't ever use an analogy where someone's mother is dying cancer on public forums .... It can hit more nerves than you think... we are talking about games. And i'm being polite here.

Look to answer your petty little post, id rather have solution 2 (even though you wrote it with a bias) because it lasts longer in time.
Catering one raid to the entire wow population is a stuipid solution imo. Having 3 raids at different diffuclties is pretty smart. You are the one who has a problem not beating the latest tier.

---------- Post added 2013-04-12 at 11:56 AM ----------

Eiffel I think you missunderstand the point he is trying to make. It's not that people shouldn't do the previous teir but that if only 25% of raids succeed in completing a teir then that teir was overtuned.

no i got that. Iam saying 'go back there now, its been nerfed' to which hes saying 'i dont wanna its not current (but current raids are killing me)'

[Candiman]

Yes but the point he is making is that normal modes should be completed by roughly 50% of raiders. That's how they should be tuned not the way they are now forcing the majority of raiders to stay in a previous teir.

[Deleted]

Please don't ever use an analogy where someone's mother is dying cancer on public forums .... It can hit more nerves than you think... we are talking about games. And i'm being polite here.

Look to answer your petty little post, id rather have solution 2 (even though you wrote it with a bias) because it lasts longer in time.
Catering one raid to the entire wow population is a stuipid solution imo. Having 3 raids at different diffuclties is pretty smart. You are the one who has a problem not beating the latest tier.

The point is that currently theres a huge clump of people not being catered to.

There is LFR (super easy, no teamwork required)
Then Normal mode (difficult, lots of teamwork, coordination, tactics, gear, skill and homework)
Then Heroic mode (really difficult, all of the above + extreme skill and persistence.)

There is no place to go if you are vaguely organised, have some coordination, some gear, some homework and only some skill. Or, another way to look at it is the difficulty levels of previous versions of wow is no longer present.

[kamuimac]

What you're not getting here is that the "right order" is, if you are one of the "casual raiders" who will probably not exist in the game after this year:

* Some cursory bullshit once you ding 90.
* Whatever the current normal tier is.
* One or two heroic bosses, if anyone's crazy enough to try.

You seem to think it should be more like:

* Some cursory bullshit once you ding 90.
* The normal tier that the cool kids blew through in 2 weeks, 3 months ago.
* One or two bosses from the current tier, if you have the ilevel to get in.

Imagine you are selling subscriptions to WoW. Suppose your income directly relates to the number of subscriptions you sell. Suppose your girlfriend is pregnant and you really like her, or, your mother is dying of cancer and needs money from you. Which version of the above would you prefer?

Well exept that this can go 2 ways - if someoen is stuck to long on something he can just think - ok so for next few weeks ill be still banging my head agains the same wall bosses - so why waste cash on game card when i can spend it on booze/other games for example and ill be back in few weeks to breeze through it when it will be nerfed to the difficulty that most want .

[HardCoder]

There is no place to go if you are vaguely organised, have some coordination, some gear, some homework and only some skill. Or, another way to look at it is the difficulty levels of previous versions of wow is no longer present.

Yes, basically, if you are 10 people who are not great at WoW, but have a fun time doing WoW, if you are planning to spend most of your time doing something other than wipe post mortems, you can only play about 1/2 of T14 at this point.

You log on and want to go do some fun raiding with your drinking/chat pals and in the past, in most tiers, there was plenty of opportunity for that, without feeling like you were a bunch of retards doing stuff that was ancient history.

[Deleted]

I think pretty much everyone is being catered for by the game.
There a lot more options out there than there was 2-3 expansions ago ... and .. funily enough, much less players too. Coincidence ? who knows. You suggest previous expansions' normal modes were much more accessible ... Wanna look at the numbers of how many killed Yogg Saron ? LK ? AnubArak ? I doubt you're going to win this argument.

you are really pushing it now ... according to your logic, we also need
a setting for vaguely organised, have some coordination, some gear, some homework and only some skill.
a setting for casual, but not drunk people, who have coordination, but not done their homework
a setting for organised, but drunk people who dont have coordination, but have done their homerwork
a setting for blind people, using a naga and G15

And for all these settings, the bosses have to die fairly easily as to not cause any issues.

@Candiman : the numbers you are citing at are not raiding teams, they are total population, including alts, casuals (whose % of of the playerbase skyrocketed with Pandaland expansion) etc. Countless alt team go in to kill 1-2 bosses. And there are a lot more alts now than before (simple logic), and that skews numbers.
Assuming everyone has an alt and plays with it, that would mean your 25% is actually 50 %.

But i am not even of the opinion that 50% of the player base should finish a raid tier in normal mode, but that's just my opinion

[Candiman]

This is where you and I can agree to disagree. I believe normal raids should be tuned for average raiders and that the middle of the bell curve should be finished or close to finishing the current raid teir before the next one is release not stuck halfway through because if they are not tuned tat way then you end up with fewer and fewer people raiding the current teir. If 40,000 guild groups started T14 and then we are now down to 20,000 starting T15 then by T16 it's 10,000 and Blizzard may ask if it's wort making content for only 10,000 raid groups.