Where have all the Raiders Gone?

[PrairieChicken]

Well, actually you CAN avoid turtles as a healer. You needed to slow them pre-nerf, after nerf they are so slooooooow by themselves that looks like slowing them is not required any more. Boss is still too random, though; but, to be honest, Megaera is as much random with a lot more damage incoming in raid, while healers still have a bad, bad times for hardcasting.
Still don't understant what was the reason to increase freaking iLvl on items for so much. And, while it is increased, lots of new items suck. Our damage dealers are complaining all the time for having a ton of unneeded hit/expertise because of tons of them on a new items. And, by the way, valor items from Shado-Pan sucks as much for having a very crappy stat customisation; my Holy Priest can't take any of that items after reaching Honored because there is a fucking crit on every item.
To those people who still can't pass through first part of t15 normal: Guys, cheer up. When you reach Durumu, you'll understand that all bosses before it were a little pink wearing pussies, lol.

Haven't gone after nerf, but before it was just annoying how if turtles FF healers, and dodging them meant you can't hardcast, and instants doesn't provide much healing, and someone dies from AoE while healers are busy with turtles, etc.

[l33t]

Haven't gone after nerf, but before it was just annoying how if turtles FF healers, and dodging them meant you can't hardcast, and instants doesn't provide much healing, and someone dies from AoE while healers are busy with turtles, etc.

Well, looks like you have something that is definitely not your healers problems. Teach your damage dealers not to get that tons of damage
Anyway, after nerfs dodging turtles is not a problem at all.

[PrairieChicken]

Well, looks like you have something that is definitely not your healers problems. Teach your damage dealers not to get that tons of damage
Anyway, after nerfs dodging turtles is not a problem at all.

I'm just saying that the difficulty spikes too randomly depending on who(and where) the turtle hits. Sometimes it's super difficult and sometime it's faceroll. Way too random

Something like initial Sinestra where two balls chasing two healers could make a lot of trouble

[Deleted]

WoW isn't a place to learn. This is a poor analogy.

Yes WoW isn't a place to learn life skills - but that it what makes it an analogy.

[Firebert]

Yes WoW isn't a place to learn life skills - but that is what makes it an analogy.

If you want to make a good analogy, try starting with similar things and applying the same things to both of them.

[Trakanonn]

Who knows what is wrong with a challenge? Fact is though that players on the whole aren't interested in dozens of wipes before shit dies.

The problem here is you don't want to accept that is what other people are like. It's a bit odd to demand that other players try harder to beat the game when you won't try harder to understand other players.


Why is it baffling?

Wiping over and over is (for most people) dull, repetitive shit that is happening at the same time as they are supposed to be having fun. For some other people wiping over and over is the prelude to a good feeling when the boss finally dies.

People are different. Who knew! There are more of the "fuck this, boring" people than "ooh yeah, beat me again Raggy HC!" types. Again, who knew!

it is what it is, accept it please.

Totally agree with this.

Not to mention we've played WoW for years and years, and have all done normals and even heroics over the years. Dedicating a night to wiping constantly just isn't as fun as it once was. WoW is not new and exciting.. you can't keep our attention that long like the old days.

I like LFR because I can log in on my own terms, play on my own terms. Until Blizzard makes PUGing more rewarding, I will be done with Normal modes for good. I usually quit after a few weeks each patch, so I never get the opportunity to raid normals/heroics like in the past.

tl;dr I just don't care like I used to. Make Normal mode a LFR option and Ill give it a shot when my gear permits.

[Deleted]

If you want to make a good analogy, try starting with similar things and applying the same things to both of them.

LOL the analogy police are in force today. I understood it even without a direct computer game reference.

[Deleted]

I blame DS for the loss of a few.

[Firebert]

I understood it even without a direct computer game reference.

Whether you understood it or not, it's a bad analogy.

[Deleted]

When did I say every guild wanted to? I said more would if their were less barriers to entry. LFR represents a significant removal of some of the barriers to entry. Blizzard in their infinite wisdom added more this raid tier (and I would argue this expansion overall) and as a consequence less players are going to raid normals. Simple as that.

---------- Post added 2013-04-12 at 05:46 PM ----------



I would be shocked if it weren't tbqh. In part because of it's convenience but also because a large chunk of players who would have otherwise been normal raiders have been pushed out of this tier and the previous tier. They stopped being "normal" or "average" raiders when the difficulty increased.

I would disaggre that LFR is a removal of a barrier to entry into raiding.
Simply because it by itself adds to the amount of time one has to invest in the game is you want to be a dedicated raider.
You might just have 2-3 raidnights a week but on top of that you end up with 1-2 nights where you play wait till the que pops and then go mindlessly through LFR.
Why do LFR well if you are a semi dedicated raider you still want to upgrade your gear in order to be best prepared for the challenges in normal/heroic raiding.

Add to that that you are also expected to grind reputation, do daylies, cap valor and have enough gold/food/flasks every evening where gold is the least of the problems since blizzard has gone ben bernanke mode and throws out gold left and right especially 28.50g .
Normal raiding would be much more enjoyable if one had to do less things ingame in order to be best prepared for it.
Somehow it would just be better if they threw out those reputation barriers, the removed the coins and made it easier to cap valor, doing 7 dungeons one afternoon in cata was significantly more enjoyable than the current system and gave one more freedom.
With LFR well you have the problem of add a lockout, but that would lead to people just going for LFR because it is easier to complete and gives more chances to get loot than doing normal mode. Or throw out LFR and say raids are player organised things end of story, which is something I think is better given that this is an mmo. Bring back the wrath system it did include more in normal mode raiding even if it was only beer league 10 man normals mode as someone called it.

[Deleted]

Whether you understood it or not, it's a bad analogy.

Its meaning is clear so its good enough. Not for the first time you are trying to be clever and play word games, - any fool cant stretch an analogy to break it, doesn't stop the point being made.

[Firebert]

Its meaning is clear so its good enough.

It's a false argument as it has a false premis, so it has no meaning.

[OmegaManHester]

Gear upgrades nerf content

Lack of LFR gear equates to undergeared players unable to kill stuff in normal pugs, thus Normal mode representation is probably the lowest its ever been in WoW history

In Cata, LFR was used like honor farming bg's to acquire gear, fast gearing process to move on to the next level. With the lowered chance to get gear in LFR its just become another long drawn out grind that people are bored with, 1HR. Que's another 1HR. run and no gear ='s see you next tuesday

[Deleted]

Because of LFR there are less people doing normal raids. And so what? Overall, more people are raiding so it's win - win situation. Casuals and people who are satisfied with unorganized raiding have their fun and raiders have theirs. Ofc there will be people between, who are better then LFR but not good enough for normals. Only question is will they be loud enough to be heard.

[OmegaManHester]

I dont think its a win-win, Less guild participation is bad for the game. LFR is much faster then a normal raid

A few hours a night, a few nights a week of guild raiding is what's being lost in the process

[Deleted]

I dont think its a win-win, Less guild participation is bad for the game. LFR is much faster then a normal raid

A few hours a night, a few nights a week of guild raiding is what's being lost in the process

That's a by-product of LFR. Majority wanted it, here you go.

[Deleted]

Because of LFR there are less people doing normal raids. And so what? Overall, more people are raiding so it's win - win situation. Casuals and people who are satisfied with unorganized raiding have their fun and raiders have theirs. Ofc there will be people between, who are better then LFR but not good enough for normals. Only question is will they be loud enough to be heard.

Yes and that is unfortunatly the damned problem, LFR as a feature is so popular that it is well killing of raiding teams. And no LFR is not raiding but that is another thread^^
But well imo LFR leads to a lot of on and off subs, but that is just in my opinion we will have to wait untill new sub figures are released.

I wouldn't say that a lot of people aren't goood enough for normals, now a days they simply can't be bothered to anymore why, because of the crapload of grinding being tossed their way so no I wouldn't say that normal raiders have their fun now a days.

[Lord Blackmore]

?

Hm, I don't know where did you get 95% of the population but ok. If you want to raid in an unorganized group then you go LFR. If you don't have time, you go to LFR. Majority doesn't even raid.

Which is precisely "where all the raiders have gone".

I suspect that a lot of people who used to raid pre-LFR, only raided because it was the only way to see the content. When an alternative that didn't require the kind of commitment being on a raid team requires, they bailed on regular raiding. I'm one of those people. I had a lot of fun raiding and I wasn't a bad player (admittedly not the greatest either, but I do know how to interrupt and not stand in fire), but I hated the commitment and I got burnt out having to meet other people's schedules
for my fun time. I know a lot of people who feel like I do, too.

[melodramocracy]

Which is precisely "where all the raiders have gone".

I suspect that a lot of people who used to raid pre-LFR, only raided because it was the only way to see the content. When an alternative that didn't require the kind of commitment being on a raid team requires, they bailed on regular raiding. I'm one of those people. I had a lot of fun raiding and I wasn't a bad player (admittedly not the greatest either, but I do know how to interrupt and not stand in fire), but I hated the commitment and I got burnt out having to meet other people's schedules
for my fun time. I know a lot of people who feel like I do, too.

I'm in the same boat really. I'd call myself an averagely decent player, raided through most of Wrath, but the 2x a week thing on a schedule got the best of me, and I've never found it appealing to start again.... even before LFR came around.

What's happening now between normals and LFR isn't going to change.. making normals easier isn't going to boost numbers there significantly, because the perks the LFR gives a lot of players is something that organized raiding can't really compete with.

[Zeek Daniels]

Gear upgrades nerf content

Lack of LFR gear equates to undergeared players unable to kill stuff in normal pugs, thus Normal mode representation is probably the lowest its ever been in WoW history

In Cata, LFR was used like honor farming bg's to acquire gear, fast gearing process to move on to the next level. With the lowered chance to get gear in LFR its just become another long drawn out grind that people are bored with, 1HR. Que's another 1HR. run and no gear ='s see you next tuesday

Yea because b4 LFR was implemented no one could do normals back in Wrath when raiding was at its peak... o wait...

The reason there is no normal pugs is because a bulk of the players who would be filling up those pugs are satisfied with just doing LFR each week. LFR has allowed players the ability to raid very easily and they dont need to worry about normals anymore. Want to gear your alt? Use LFR. Back in the day you needed pug 25 mans and 10 mans to gear your alts, now you have LFR and alot of players are content with stopping their while others are wondering where everyone went, assuming blizzards numbers are not wrong and the population is relatively the same then the only thing that has changed is LFR. Since ppl have LFR they dont need Normals.

It has nothing to do with the drop rate of LFR gear and ppl not being geared for normals. The raids should be balanced starting with the highest gear available from dungeons, not starting at LFR.