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  1. #1241
    Quote Originally Posted by Boblet View Post
    No, LFR itself killed normal modes. Previous to the introduction of LFR the only way for a casual player to raid was in normal modes, with a guild or pugging, now most people don't want to go through the effort of finding or organizing a group from trade chat. They would rather do LFR, because lets face it, you press a button to join a group with all the needed roles, see the content and also get gear.
    This wasn't the case in cata with DS, far more people were puggin normal DS decked out in LFR gear, then trying to upgrade gear from normal modes.

    They lowered the chance to get LRF gear in MoP

    A MoP GhostCryer video is on wow insider, He goes into detail stating that players shouldn't gear up in a few LFR runs

    This is a major contributor as to why people aren't in normals

  2. #1242
    I quit ages ago because people are slow learners. It shouldn't take 2-3 hours to learn a boss fight. I'd sit there after 2-3 attempts, knowing exactly what I had to do, and then have to suffer because it would take hours or even days for the rest of the group to finally figure out what they had to do. It becomes increasingly frustrating and eventually you just have to quit because it's not fun anymore.

  3. #1243
    Quote Originally Posted by OmegaManHester View Post
    This wasn't the case in cata with DS, far more people were puggin normal DS decked out in LFR gear, then trying to upgrade gear from normal modes.
    Trends in player behavior take a while to show themselves. Rest assured that as things currently are, normal participation will continue to decline.

    Still plenty of pugs going on anyhow (at least on my server)

  4. #1244
    Some people are really upset at the difficulty of ToT huh? I dunno, it hasn't really seemed like a big difference from T14 for us.

    Half of our current raiders were 7/16 in T14 in January, and now we're 8/12 in ToT about to start tries on Dark Animus. The hardest boss so far has been Tortos, and there changing our priority to bats > turtles made the biggest difference, not the nerf.

  5. #1245
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Firebert View Post
    No, I'm pretty sure I've just disproven your argument, as you're out of arguments yourself.
    LOL hardly, its just you don't know what your talking about.

  6. #1246
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Hightotemz View Post
    I agree, the very best of the best west players still raid 25man bar Paragon of course.
    I don't know but maybe the reason why they nerf 10 man is because they have a lower floor concerning player skill than you will find in 25 man raiding guilds.
    Because lets face it most 25 man have better players generally than 10 man players have.
    The decent/casual/acceptable 25 mans have all died more or less. The only ones who have survived are the ones good enough to deliver and get through the raids at a good pace.
    Where as 10 man raiding teams have survived through their inherent logistical advantage.

    skilllevel spread 10 man <---------------->

    skillevel spread 25 man .............<---------->

    But that is just a little theory I have.

    If I cared enough about that theory i might go to wowprogress and look up something like average amount of bosses killed by 25 vs average amount of bosses killed by 10 man. Which would only tell me that perhaps 25 man on average kill more bosses, but it wouldn't tell me if it was because they have better players or just an easier setting. For that I would probably have to find some interresting way to objectively quantify player skill level. But well finding out that is almost impossible, in the past it has only lead to the introduction of epeen. So my theory remains what it is a theory.

  7. #1247
    Deleted
    Some people left wow, some are just playing lfr. Raids are now more time demanding than they were before.

    Dax75 you are playing 25man, that's the theory I have because otherwise wouldn't write such post.

    They nerfed 10man because there were too many wipes in average, compared to last patches. In my opinion 25man is much more forgiving, while in 10man when someone screws up you are done, however when everybody does what they should it gets easier much quicker than on 25man, gear also makes difference quicker.

  8. #1248
    Legendary! Firebert's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NigelGurney View Post
    LOL hardly, its just you don't know what your talking about.
    Clearly I do.

    It's like saying that raids are identical to exams. They're clearly not, as the former is a group action for fun whereas the latter is a solo test of knowledge.
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  9. #1249
    Deleted
    If raids are too hard for most people, it will be harder for even skilled people to find guilds because how do you prove them you can play other than raiding?

    I know most people who read this board are in very stable hardcore guilds and it doesn't concern you, but this is what already happened to me. I know I would be capable of killing bosses on heroic or at least clearing normal, but no, now I have to wipe at normal Horridon because of other people's noob mistakes. I can't simply join a better guild because A) they don't need my class B) My gear isn't good enough for their progression C) I can't prove my skill until I raid with them

    inb4 you are not hardcore because you only raid 8 hours a week but still managed to kill 6/13H. Hardcore isn't only about time usage but also skill. If you manage to clear the raids faster than someone who raids double your hours then you are even more hardcore.

  10. #1250
    Quote Originally Posted by OmegaManHester View Post
    This wasn't the case in cata with DS, far more people were puggin normal DS decked out in LFR gear, then trying to upgrade gear from normal modes.

    They lowered the chance to get LRF gear in MoP

    A MoP GhostCryer video is on wow insider, He goes into detail stating that players shouldn't gear up in a few LFR runs

    This is a major contributor as to why people aren't in normals
    Sure players are going to run normal DS when they are decked out in LFR gear months after release and a ramping nerf on DS that trivializes a number of mechanics making the place easier than LFR in the height of the nerf. For the first few months PuGs was almost nonexistant on my high population realm. Ether you ran with a guild or did LFR if you wanted to see content and progress your character.

    PuG raiding on my realm is still very low in comparison to T11 prenerf. One was able to find a PuG raid from around 2pm to 10 pm server time. Now ether you play during prime time or find guild that raids outside of prime time or you do LFR.

  11. #1251
    Quote Originally Posted by Firebert View Post
    Fixed that for you.
    Nuh-huh. Because to run two groups, you need TWO raid leaders, TWO main tanks, TWO competent main healers. A lot of 25-man raids didn't have that.
    The night is dark and full of terrors...

  12. #1252
    Our guild is also having trouble fielding raiders. We went from a solid raid group, to sharing a raid with another guild. It sucks trying to find people to raid because there simply aren't any around!

  13. #1253

  14. #1254
    Quote Originally Posted by Sarahbeam View Post
    Our guild is also having trouble fielding raiders. We went from a solid raid group, to sharing a raid with another guild. It sucks trying to find people to raid because there simply aren't any around!
    Yeah, you should totally drop by that other thread where a bunch of people are defending some obscene guild recruitment practices, it might give you a good hint to why no one wants to raid anymore.
    The night is dark and full of terrors...

  15. #1255
    Quote Originally Posted by namelessone View Post
    Yeah, you should totally drop by that other thread where a bunch of people are defending some obscene guild recruitment practices, it might give you a good hint to why no one wants to raid anymore.
    "List your macros"?

    ROTFLWTFLMAOBBQ.

  16. #1256
    Deleted
    There would be more raids happening if people had more raid-ready alts. People would have more raid-ready alts if Blizzard didn't gate basic raid starter gear behind horrible grind in LFD without proper JP/VP vendors (and all that crap with dailies, reputation vendors and so on)

  17. #1257
    Quote Originally Posted by NeverStop View Post
    So the question is why don't casuals help test on the PTR?
    Because the last time I tried PTR, it had a lot of asshats making the AH useless by buying-up everything and reposting it for outrageous amounts.

    Good luck buying any of the crafted gear, or mats to try crafting things yourself.

    I didn't feel like copying toons over just for the gold, and then deleting them so I could copy more toons for the gold - lather, rinse, repeat - just to have enough gold to buy anything I wanted to try or craft.

    The thread in which we pleaded with Blizz to set a reasonable max buyout-price on PTR AH, was - if I recall correctly - a no-go because they didn't want to set the max buyout price too low for fear that some people wouldn't see enough incentive to farm mats or craft items for the PTR AH.

    So we had people in the same thread arguing that they should be able to charge hundreds - or thousands - of gold per stack of Outland or WotLK mats while people were trying to level Monks & professions, because they were willing to put the time in gathering them while the "lazy people" whining in our thread wanted the mats "given" to them without having to leave the capital city.

    If people just want to try a pre-made toon, it is probably a lot easier, but trying to PTR on a copy of your existing toon was a pain in the rear for me.
    I take some solace in the fact that even though my snarky reply to someone's condescending rhetorical question earned me a 1-week ban, my post was not deleted. I was rather proud of that bit of snark, and I am glad it lives on.

  18. #1258
    Legendary! Firebert's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by namelessone View Post
    Nuh-huh. Because to run two groups, you need TWO raid leaders, TWO main tanks, TWO competent main healers. A lot of 25-man raids didn't have that.
    They should have had two raid leaders, two tanks and 6 competent healers whilst raiding 25-man....
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  19. #1259
    Quote Originally Posted by Kalukki View Post
    If raids are too hard for most people, it will be harder for even skilled people to find guilds because how do you prove them you can play other than raiding?

    I know most people who read this board are in very stable hardcore guilds and it doesn't concern you, but this is what already happened to me. I know I would be capable of killing bosses on heroic or at least clearing normal, but no, now I have to wipe at normal Horridon because of other people's noob mistakes. I can't simply join a better guild because A) they don't need my class B) My gear isn't good enough for their progression C) I can't prove my skill until I raid with them

    inb4 you are not hardcore because you only raid 8 hours a week but still managed to kill 6/13H. Hardcore isn't only about time usage but also skill. If you manage to clear the raids faster than someone who raids double your hours then you are even more hardcore.
    Join a guild when the tier is over. You'll get at least a 1-2 week trial, which you should breeze through if your skill is as high as you claim.

  20. #1260
    Hope this will be one of the last posts.

    It's been said time and again that LFR is the biggest reason to pinpoint the answer to the question "Where have all the raiders gone?".

    Yet people keep discussing this to death - and come up with all sorts of reasons as to why this is:

    - the normal difficulty being too high
    - the application process is too much work

    These two small reasons come up every few pages and people go bonkers over this.

    The funny thing is that the application process (extreme applications always have existed but are the minority of a minority of a minority, be real) has been there since Vanilla. Sure in Vanilla they weren't and couldn't be that elaborate. So if you encounter guilds that have application forms or require some effort before joining: DO NO JOIN THOSE GUILDS BUT SEARCH FOR A GUILD THAT DOESN'T REQUIRE YOU TO DO THIS.

    How hard is that? Well seeing as not a lot of raidingguilds still exist apart from the strong guilds, who were usually a tad more hardcore - there they have application forms. And rightly so. And why do these guilds still exist (for now) and not the "normal" guilds that before didn't require much of an application? Oh yes... LFR.
    Suprise?

    The other reason is the difficulty. Which is a logical explanation. But if that were really the case, wouldn't the official forums have people screaming for nerfs? Apart from a couple of people in this thread, I see no outcry for nerfs on these boards either. So is it really that hard? Or is it just that the guilds who are attempting normal modes, have recruited people with so little experience and LFR attitude, that yes they will have a hard time?

    You can blame what you will however you will, LFR is the main culprit. Would we want to get rid of LFR? No - but this is an effect that LFR has done (amongst other things).

    So you can discuss at length, but the elephant in the room will not go away.

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