Why are the forsaken so hostile against alliance?

[Immitis]

And where did you get the idea that he supported their payment?
He is the leader of the House of Nobles and the House of Nobles refused payment.

His wife, who did support it, got killed by accident by a thrown rock.

considering varian is the type of person who would offer orcs lumber and was very close to his wife i doubt he disagreed with her.

also she was killed by a rock, during a rebellion, the people who started that rebellion became the defias

[leaks]

Lovely, now this thread has a attracted the nut who goes through the entire thread angrily replying to every single post page by page.

[Scummer]

While you are at it, could you also count the Forsaken-quests that talk about humans hunting the Forsaken? Because they are numerous..
You'd know that if you'd play both factions.

We speaking Humans as in ones aligned with the Alliance or one aligned with the Scarlet Crusade?

[Deleted]

Yes but "the banshee queen watchs over you" gives you and idea of a completely free race?

Is that really your evidence to say the forsaken aren't free to leave? No they aren't free to do whatever they want, no race is, that would just be chaos, there has to be rules and all races have them, even in real life we have laws so people can't do whatever they want, if that's what you call a dictator then any ruler for you is a dictator...oh except Varian ofcourse...because he's a human and humans are perfect.

I repeat, you are right in most things we discussed about, but you don't want to admit Sylvanas is more autoritarian than Varian.
As when we talked about who has the right over Lordaeron, I said both of them and it is because the alliance belives they are right in attacking the forsaken the few times they did it, but you say "noooo absolutely not, you are only an alliance fanboy, white knight blablabla..." Considering that in the origins we started talking about why the forsaken were so aggressive. The forsaken, not the alliance.

When I first replied to you was when you said ''So the alliance has the right to drive back the forsaken..because they are themselves'', that sure looks like blind bias, and then you started arguing about the lots and lots (actually not that many) of refugees who can't wait to go back to their homes, while also saying the forsaken have the right to be there, I didn't say the refugees shouldn't be able to live there but you are suggesting that both the forsaken and the refugees live together in the same city...can't you see anything wrong with this? And would the refugees really want to go back to Lordaeron when it's completly destroyed? Not to mention they wouldn't want to live alongside the undead, they would want it for themselves, so your argument doesn't make sense, think about it.

[Immitis]

Then the Defias wouldn't be a problem, seeing as he is the leader of the House of Nobles? Right..?

Which was an accident during a riot.

But I guess that's the difference between a King and a dictator.
A King abuses his citizens, then banishes them if they object and then sends heroes to slaughter them.

the king doesnt have full control over the house of nobles, he tried to get them to pay but onyxia had convinced them that the builders had it out against them.

he also didnt banish them, they left on their own then started killing innocent people.

[rowaasr13]

The funniest thing in this discussion, are people who cant stand single race that isnt your generic goody-goody. So even if forsaken are evil whats wrong with that ?

Nothing wrong. It is perfectly okay and that's exactly what I want: evil faction that doesn't hide their evil behind words. What really bugs me of is fans that call them "victims" and "misunderstood" anti-heroes. No thanks, we understand forsaken pretty well.

[leaks]

Yes but "the banshee queen watchs over you" gives you and idea of a completely free race?.

The line is "Dark Lady watch over you". It's about her protecting her people....

[Octavius]

Is that really your evidence to say the forsaken aren't free to leave? No they aren't free to do whatever they want, no race is, that would just be chaos, there has to be rules and all races have them, even in real life we have laws so people can't do whatever they want, if that's what you call a dictator then any ruler for you is a dictator...oh except Varian ofcourse...because he's a human and humans are perfect.



When I first replied to you was when you said ''So the alliance has the right to drive back the forsaken..because they are themselves'', that sure looks like blind bias, and then you started aruing about the lots and lots (actually not that many) of refugees who can't wait to go back to their homes, while also saying the forsaken have the right to be there, I didn't say the refugees shouldn't be able to live there but you are suggesting that both the forsaken and the refugees live together in the same city...can't you see anything wrong with this? And would the refugees really want to go back to Lordaeron when it's completly destroyed? Not to mention they wouldn't want to live alongside the undead, they would want it for themselves, so your argument doesn't make sense, think about it.

A) now you're exaggerating, I never said humans are perfect. My analisys was around Sylvanas who's more autoritarian (then, I called her dictator) than other leaders. You don't understand? Amen. You don't want to admit it? Amen two times.
B) yes that sentence seems bias but I said that after many of you said "the forsaken are evil, cool, baddass and aggressive so they could do what they want" and I replied that then the alliance attacks them because they are themselves. Anyway, it wasn't me to say that humans and forsaken must live together. I said the alliance, claiming the right of the refugees over lordaeron, may will in the future try to reclaim it. And, as I said, the forsaken have the same right. Now what is wrong?

---------- Post added 2013-04-18 at 04:37 PM ----------

Nothing wrong. It is perfectly okay and that's exactly what I want: evil faction that doesn't hide their evil behind words. What really bugs me of is fans that call them "victims" and "misunderstood" anti-heroes. No thanks, we understand forsaken pretty well.

Nothing, as I said, they are themselves and are good for the game.

---------- Post added 2013-04-18 at 04:41 PM ----------

the king doesnt have full control over the house of nobles, he tried to get them to pay but onyxia had convinced them that the builders had it out against them.

he also didnt banish them, they left on their own then started killing innocent people.

I think this is the reason why he isn't a "dictator". Sylvanas has more control over his kingdom. And she keeps power without any scruple. I don't like it, but it is a problem of mine.

[Immitis]

out of all the leaders of the alliance varian is probably the best, most kind hearted, and most respectable out of all of them. except maybe velen but to be honest velen seems to spend all of his time trying to predict the future instead of actually... doing anything.

everytime a chance for peace has come up varian is one of the first people to try and come to a good resolution. he fights the horde with respect, and despite being at war with them is still willing to hold diplomatic meetings with the horde and has offered them resources more than once to try and stop fighting.

despite varians life being filled with nearly unending tragedy hes managed to pull through it and remain a strong leader in order to protect his son.

[Octavius]

out of all the leaders of the alliance varian is probably the best, most kind hearted, and most respectable out of all of them. except maybe velen but to be honest velen seems to spend all of his time trying to predict the future instead of actually... doing anything.

everytime a chance for peace has come up varian is one of the first people to try and come to a good resolution. he fights the horde with respect, and despite being at war with them is still willing to hold diplomatic meetings with the horde and has offered them resources more than once to try and stop fighting.

despite varians life being filled with nearly unending tragedy hes managed to pull through it and remain a strong leader in order to protect his son.

Yes, after theramore he didn't want to slaughter the entire horde with mass effect weapons. He's a good leader.

[Immitis]

as for who deserves lordaeron kosak said in a tweet "living former lordaeron citizens in the alliance believe its theirs, undead lordaeron citizens believe its theirs" so really their both right.

im hoping calia menethil comes back and becomes a love interest for varian. they grew up together as children, they both lost their family in wars, if shes living he and her are probably the ones who felt the betrayal of arthas more than anyone, and it would be a cool plot device

[Ultramonkey]

out of all the leaders of the alliance varian is probably the best, most kind hearted, and most respectable out of all of them. except maybe velen but to be honest velen seems to spend all of his time trying to predict the future instead of actually... doing anything.

everytime a chance for peace has come up varian is one of the first people to try and come to a good resolution. he fights the horde with respect, and despite being at war with them is still willing to hold diplomatic meetings with the horde and has offered them resources more than once to try and stop fighting.

despite varians life being filled with nearly unending tragedy hes managed to pull through it and remain a strong leader in order to protect his son.

I would say Varian has gradually grown to become more diplomatic, they are trying to make him Thrall 2.0. Both were subjected to imprisonment by the opposite faction, both have lost loved ones and both strive for a truce between factions. In Wrath, Varian was a hothead who always clashed with Garrosh at meetings, now he seems to want to be more diplomatic after Thrall stepped down.

[Northem]

im hoping calia menethil comes back and becomes a love interest for varian. they grew up together as children, they both lost their family in wars, if shes living he and her are probably the ones who felt the betrayal of arthas more than anyone, and it would be a cool plot device

Exactly, I've thought of that too. It would be logical and would also be a very interesting story (narratively speaking)

[Deleted]

A) now you're exaggerating, I never said humans are perfect. My analisys was around Sylvanas who's more autoritarian (then, I called her dictator) than other leaders. You don't understand? Amen. You don't want to admit it? Amen two times.

Way to ignore everything else I said.

B) yes that sentence seems bias but I said that after many of you said "the forsaken are evil, cool, baddass and aggressive so they could do what they want" and I replied that then the alliance attacks them because they are themselves. Anyway, it wasn't me to say that humans and forsaken must live together. I said the alliance, claiming the right of the refugees over lordaeron, may will in the future try to reclaim it. And, as I said, the forsaken have the same right. Now what is wrong?

You are making things up, I never said ''the forsaken are evil, cool, baddass and aggressive so they could do what they want", and yeah the alliance could do that, but then I don't get it, you're saying ''the alliance can try to reclaim Lordaeron but both sides have the right to live there, but they won't live together'', this doesn't add anything, it's like not saying anything at all.

[Octavius]

Exactly, I've thought of that too. It would be logical and would also be a very interesting story (narratively speaking)

Very romantic. Not bad, but if i say I agree with it someone will say that I'm a white knight so cannot, I'm sorry.

---------- Post added 2013-04-18 at 05:00 PM ----------

Way to ignore everything else I said.


You are making things up, I never said ''the forsaken are evil, cool, baddass and aggressive so they could do what they want", and yeah the alliance could do that, but then I don't get it, you're saying ''the alliance can try to reclaim Lordaeron but both sides have the right to live there, but they won't live together'', this doesn't add anything, it's like not saying anything at all.

This explain why the alliance and the forsaken are in conflict. The original topic, why they are fighting and why the forsaken want to fight humanity. Another thing, I red many of you saying the forsaken are evil, cool bla bla bla but I don't remember YOU. Simply my answer "forsaken are themselves" was in response of it. And I don't ignore what you say, I do often you right. At most, the opposite, you don't care what I say.

[Deleted]

This explain why the alliance and the forsaken are in conflict. The original topic, why they are fighting and why the forsaken want to fight humanity. Another thing, I red many of you saying the forsaken are evil, cool bla bla bla but I don't remember YOU. Simply my answer "forsaken are themselves" was in response of it. And I don't ignore what you say, I do often you right. At most, the opposite, you don't care what I say.

What I said you ignored was this: ''No they aren't free to do whatever they want, no race is, that would just be chaos, there has to be rules and all races have them, even in real life we have laws so people can't do whatever they want, if that's what you call a dictator then any ruler for you is a dictator...''

And the forsaken fight against the alliance because they are on horde, sylvanas sent emissaries to various cities looking for allies, obviously she sent to alliance cities aswell, the tauren were the only ones that responded and then convinced thrall to let them join the horde, but honestly this whole topic doesn't make sense, the forsaken are as hostile to the alliance as any horde race is, and the alliance is as hostile to the horde, it's how this game works.

And finally, maybe, maybe I misunderstood a little bit of what you said about Lordaeron, but honestly what do you expect when posting something like that without explaining, and no offense but your english sometimes doesn't really help.

[Aquamonkey]

Ah, Horde fans enjoy spouting lies pulled from their asses just to bend facts to "we're victims" once again. How new and refreshing! I start to think that's there's something in Horde story that pull people like that to it.

Yep, I'm totally spouting lies out of my ass just to bend facts:

Q: Why do some Alliance soldiers raised by the Forsaken immediately become loyal to the Forsaken while others do not? Are they being mind controlled? If so, by whom - Sylvanas or the Val'kyr? How does this relate to the fact that the Forsaken cultural identity is based on their free will and rebellion against the Lich King?
A: Free will is one of the cornerstones of Forsaken culture, with the great capacity for both good and evil that it entails. However, some undead, especially those who die in combat or under extreme stress and are raised soon after, enter into a violent, frenzied state. Undead in this state are easily manipulated and their rage is often directed at the foes of those who raised them. After the effects wear off, if the risen corpse has not been destroyed, they are given the same ultimatum that other Forsaken are offered: join the Dark Lady or return to the grave. (Source)

[Octavius]

And finally, maybe, maybe I misunderstood a little bit of what you said about Lordaeron, but honestly what do you expect when posting something like that without explaining, and no offense but your english sometimes doesn't really help.

Ahahaha yes you're probably right, my english sometimes could be better. However, maybe about Lordaeron you didn't understand me and MAYBE I didn't understand you about Sylv. I said only she is an autoritarian leader. Stop.

[Deleted]

Ahahaha yes you're probably right, my english sometimes could be better. However, maybe about Lordaeron you didn't understand me and MAYBE I didn't understand you about Sylv. I said only she is an autoritarian leader. Stop.

You clearly said she is a dictator, but whatever ^^

[Syferite]

I think Forsaken hostiles can be summed up with this quest: http://www.wowhead.com/quest=26428

There is resentment for the living and also the sense of being abandoned and betrayed by people that they wore once friends with.

It's quite interesting how you can sympathize with both sides.

The Humans obviously are going to go in to that "kill the zombie" mode since being undead isn't natural. With how much religious faith that they seem to have, they'd see smiting the Forsaken as the right thing to do. Then you have the Forsaken going trigger-happy in Lordaeron and it just adds fuel to the Forsaken hate machine and that they are nothing but stains on rightful human land waiting to be cleansed. So it's easy to see why the forsaken view the Humans as just a bunch of extremists that seem to be fine with mass genocide. Of course, this ends up being contradicted with how the Argent Crusade is fine with having Forsaken in their ranks (although technically they end up being members of the AC and not Forsaken).

The Forsaken sides of things is a little conflicting. You have one side that seems to genuinely just want to secure their rightful borders and to then cultivate a undead civilization, but then you have a bunch of bat-shit insane people that want to do nothing but conduct the mindless slaughter of countless people with blood and blight. The best part is that they seem to view this as "self-defence", so in the end, they basically become no different to the humans that they hate so much. Which is quite romantic considering how the Forsaken are mainly undead humans.