Why have Prot palas not been nerfed?

[Butler to Baby Sloths]

The thing is you "could" use any tank to do the one tank strat with hop but pallies do it better! It's not impossible but look here

Why would I tank Tortos when our pallie can tank and do the following HEALING and DMG?

healing
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/t...?s=5340&e=5659
DMG:
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/t...?s=5340&e=5659

It's not that it's impossible to use another tank for the 1 tank strat it's just a pallie makes it redic easy as they pump out so much HPS and DPS at the same time and the other tanks will generally only pump out more dps due to veng but nothing close to the HPS.

Same on council :

Healing :
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/t...?s=3428&e=3828
DMG:
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/t...?s=3428&e=3828


Comming from a prot war POV I don't want to see them nerfed but I would rather have the same oportunity as them to do something similar. One main issue for wars is if you pop S.barrier then you will absorb a decent chunk of dmg but if you pop that as your go to shield then you negate heavy repercusions glyph and loose out on 50% dmg boost to SS. As SS is our #1 dmg ability we sacraphise allot of dmg for that absorb and one way I could see so soften that blow is turn heavyrepercusions into a 5 second buff each time you cast S.bar or S.block where SS will do 50% more dmg so that the glyph is not wasted due to choosing absorb > block. Still dose not bring us in line HPS wise but just an idea instead of jumping in the NERF PALLIES camp!

70% of the healing in those logs from the Protection Paladin was self-healing.

[Nairobi]

70% of the healing in those logs from the Protection Paladin was self-healing.

Even so, he's at least got the right mindset for approaching the "problem" and a constructive attitude on how to improve his class/spec rather than request/demand that another be gutted.

Yes, we cannot simply buff ALL the things. Yes, parts of prot pal toolkit (as well as encoutner design oversight) should be adjusted. But no, we should not all be relegated back to the dark ages of avoidance tanking simply because some classes are unfortunately not on the level of paladin tanking currently. They need to be helped up, not have pal/monk hurt.

[Snuzzfizzle]

He used it as an example to demonstrate why you cant just keep buffing classes... Did you even read the last paragraph of his post ??

Again, nobody argues that monk dps is high, it should probably be toned down.
Problem is, we're not discussing monk DPS here... you still dont get it do you ?

Well, clearly, you aren't reading my posts, either.
So why even bother?

[helic]

I like all the points you brought up to refute his claim, wait there are none.

[Snuzzfizzle]

It's like I'm really on leddit.

[-aiko-]

We're doing heroics with a Brewmaster and Death Knight. No issues so far (just downed Tortos).

[underdogba]

I just find it absolutely amazing that so much text can be generated just because people do not understand the nuance that Sacred Shield and Insight appear on recount as healing but effects like critical block do not!

[Odina]

I just find it absolutely amazing that so much text can be generated just because people do not understand the nuance that Sacred Shield and Insight appear on recount as healing but effects like critical block do not!

Also just as amazing that shield Barrier is counted as a heal and if I tried to spam the shit out of barrier even 60 rage ones I could not come close to the amount of self healing/absorbs provided by and equal pallie without also really hurting my dps due to glyph of heavy repercusions!

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/t...#tab-healspell

As you can see 38% of my "heals" are shield barrier... so Apples to Apples? I mean it's not like pallies arent also block tanks!

[Solarflair]

Sorry to derail the angst, but could someone just briefly detail where you'd be using HoP on Durumu? Is Clemency involved for this?

[Butler to Baby Sloths]

Sorry to derail the angst, but could someone just briefly detail where you'd be using HoP on Durumu? Is Clemency involved for this?

Get rid of the mortal strike debuff and the bleed that ticks until you get healed to 100% life.

[Zol]

My current raid team has Warrior MT and DK offtank (me). We are currently progressing thru normal ToT and expect to start heroics in a couple weeks.

I have a Prot Paladin sitting with a 500 item level that I could swap too.

Judging by this thread....it seems like that would be a good idea. Am I being crazy or is this the proper course to progress thru Heroic ToT?

p.s. we plan on moving to 25 man raiding in early June.

[TheNationGamer]

Currently i play a prot paladin and feel they're OP'd above all current tanks this tier
I can easily coordinate my cds without dieing and do between 100-200k dps per fight

Haste stacking ftw

Monks and druids are right below paladins which is good due to the fact crit tanks can easily do 100k+ dps and manage threat

DKS/WARRIORS are currently the lower end and should be either buffed or add some kind of advantage like paladins/monks/druids do

[Freese]

I think warriors are better for tanking Heroic Durumu in terms of damage taken. I get so much vengeance that I just pop Shield Barrier before each Hard Stare and it doesn't even eat up half of my absorb shield. In other words, I completely negate the entire hard-hitting tank damaging ability of the fight. We are working on Heroic Lei Shen right now and, for the first time this tier, I feel like our tank comp (druid/prot warrior) is gimp because we don't have the Brewmaster taunt that will make Lei Shen move more quickly between conduits. We do have a Mistweaver who can taunt, but he has to miss Wednesday raids for the next two weeks.

[Butler to Baby Sloths]

I feel like our tank comp (druid/prot warrior) is gimp because we don't have the Brewmaster taunt that will make Lei Shen move more quickly between conduits.

That actually works on raid bosses? I guess you learn something new every day.

[kaiadam]

It works. It's also overrated. We stopped using taunt after wipe #100 or so once we figured out the nuances of boss movement as it was a dps loss. We consistently end phase 1 with ~20-22 stacks with no provoke usage and the average raid on heroic LS probably can survive up to 30 stacks at this point.

[nightfalls]

Personally I think tanks are overemphasized in raids right now. Vengeance allows us to match any dps on any fight or handily beat them on most encounters. It makes it fun for us but where's the satisfaction that a rogue gets from doing a perfectly 2cp rupture/fok rotation on 4 targets when the brewmaster is like "lol keg smash" and he does double the damage? How does a healer get enjoyment out of the game when they min/max their cascade/poh/uplift/healing rain etc., sub in a complex aoe healing rotation when the prot pally drops a light's hammer and does 5 million healing with one gcd?

I honestly think vengeance should just be capped at a tenth of the current value, maybe small modifications depending on what difficulty level you're playing at.

Completely agree with this. That and vengeance raid healing (self healing isn't as big an issue, considering that is not "competing" with healers, but rather part of an overall mitigation package).

Not only that, but the role really is overemphasized. For instance, let's say you're distributing gear. Giving it to the DPS is supposed to mean more raid DPS, giving it to the healer is supposed to mean more raid healing, giving it to the tank is supposed to be a bit of both - more tank survival (which is absolutely mandatory) and a bit more DPS. Not DPS that scales more than giving said gear to an actual DPS (due to high AP).

I've always believed (maybe I'm wrong) that to some extent, even pre-MOP tank DPS has always mattered, just not to the degree it does now where tank DPS is 2x a DPS's DPS (how is this intuitive at all, even if the DPS "aren't being replaced?"). I know back when I dabbled in tanking some heroic modes in my weekend raiding guild, I had to make decisions trading off survival for DPS on severe DPS check fights, but not to the degree where there isn't even a tradeoff, you just take the DPS.

That and finally it irks me that vengeance encourages really stupid things, like purposely standing in shit to smoke out the meters more. Taking extra healing (as GC even blathered about on twitter) isn't supposed to reward you with more damage, yet it's exactly what it's doing, to the degree where if you aren't maximizing your unmitigated damage anymore, you're pretty much a bad tank.

--

Either way, I'm not really against the mechanic (AM scaling on damage taken), but more so the values we're seeing so far.

[Deleted]

That actually works on raid bosses? I guess you learn something new every day.

Helps moving Horridon between gates as well and allows for more caster dps in between. But if that's his only concern about his tank comp then it's just a "first world problem", one situation on one boss is like nothing and won't make or break your raid at all.

Speaking from a 10M PoV: anybody who has the opportunity to run with monk and/or prot pala should do it, why wouldn't you want additional raidheal even if that's "only" 10k (or 50k, whatever)? It's the same question as if you can fill your last dps slot and already covered all revelant raid(de-)buffs, would you rather bring somebody with a strong offheal capability or just a plain dps (disregard their personality or possible loot dilemma).

If you can bring another melee or an enhancer, i'd go with the shaman any day. On Megaera heroic our enhancer heals for up to 300k hps during rampage with ancestral guidance popped and dropping a glyphed healing rain, how this can ever be balanced for 10M?

Similar problem with owl/shadow versus a pure ranged dps like a mage, tranq+symbiosis/massdispell+vampiric embrace will come handy more often (more or less on any fight) than a ring of frost. With the abolition of the "hybrid tax" a roster with lots of hybrids will regulary beat a normal roster. With the nature of most fights (burst damage instead of constant aoe) intelligent management of hybrids cooldown allow your team to bring another dps instead of a third healer, greatly decreasing the damage requirements per person.

Or turn it around, if you run with (fist-)mistweaver and disc priest you can easily add 100k raid-dps over a team of shaman/paladin/druid, how is this balanced? Yes, it adds the unique feeling to each class but to much diversity is just an uncontrollable element. Anybody who's willing to stack it will get great boni from this, especially during the progression phase. When you kill everything weeks (or months) behind world/server first, with +10 or more ilvl on your team you can run with any setup but if you still conquer for some more or less big records ... having a solid advantage won't hurt

[Valkari]

Are paladins too strong? Yes.

Will they be nerfed? No.

Essentially, the design team believes paladins should be the best tanks in the game and they've maintained this belief since WotLK (outside of a patch or two). It's unfortunate if you play another class, but it's just the way it is.

Cue "all tanks are tanking all the content" as an attempt at misdirection from a tank topping damage and healing meters while having utility to die for.

While I will agree that our prot pally does seem to survive slightly better and have utility, brewmaster DPS and aggro is quite a bit higher (assuming similar levels of vengeance). He's always growling at me about it, lol.

[Celarent]

Completely agree with this. That and vengeance raid healing (self healing isn't as big an issue, considering that is not "competing" with healers, but rather part of an overall mitigation package).

Vengeance's dynamics make the mechanic cool in concept, but in practice it's led to a lot of inconsistencies: awkward boss swaps, limits to playing the role in old content, crucially high DPS in many encounters, "weird and demoralizing" (quoting Street) DPS in trivial but current content.

[nightfalls]

Vengeance's dynamics make the mechanic cool in concept, but in practice it's led to a lot of inconsistencies: awkward boss swaps, limits to playing the role in old content, crucially high DPS in many encounters, "weird and demoralizing" (quoting Street) DPS in trivial but current content.

Yeah, it could have been implemented a lot better. Agree that Ghostcrawler's whole spiel about "weird and demoralizing" was total bullshit.

I went from doing 50-60% of the group's damage in 5-mans (when playing very well compared to a group) to doing 80%+. Of the entire 5-man.

Yes, you can give the "no shit" answers like "oh well it kills things faster" or "oh well it's not hurting the DPS since you don't technically replace them" but honestly, even as a DPS, if all I cared about was "not being replaced" then I feel there's something missing (of course, the "no shit" answer is that player for player I'd obviously prefer each person in the group - DPS, tank, or healer - doing more damage and healing than not, but this isn't a question of that, more of a question of game design and balance).