Wrathion: Agent of a Self-Fulfilling Prophecy

[Grocalis]

I think the problem with your comment is that the information about the Titans, assuming your argument is correct, isnt a hint at things to come, it's a blatant telling of "Titans are all dead, sorry." There was no hinting regarding the Titans. It would be "Yeah, they're all dead."

I think I see where you are getting hung up. I am not saying that the sentence is foreshadowing that the Titan's are dead, but foreshadowing how up crap creek we will be next expansion because the universe around us is now owned almost entirely by a demon army of destruction. It's foreshadowing how horrible we will learn it has become and how dangerous everything will be once the next expansion hits.

The Titans were a beacon of some stability and hope, because even with the demons out there we knew some benevolent beings likely existed to counter them. With the Titan's possibly dead, the threat just got ten times more real. That is what it is foreshadowing, that the threat of the next expansion is going to be like nothing we have seen before. We won't have gods possibly showing up to save us.

[KrazyK923]

My issue with that theory is that the Titans are so powerful that Sargeras is irrelevant to them suddenly being completely destroyed by him and the Legion seems really stupid. Mainly because we see an absolute total of zero experience with the whole "Well how did Sargeras do it?" And if they are already gone, I doubt we'd care why they were defeated, just that we need to now stop them.

That's not to say the "Creators eventually overthrown by people they once deemed irrelvant" storyline hasn't been done or isn't interesting. The different, though, is that the ones that are good usually show you some advancement of how these Gods suddenly were just utterly destroyed by the group they once thought were not worth paying attention to.

[Nomial17]

The point is "after they are gone".



How so? We have seen countless times that the Titan's have various forms of interstellar communication and transmission. We knew that ever since that dwarf in the Wetlands accidently gave one a call on an ancient titan cell phone. They are also shown to be obsessed with Order, which is why they create so many failsafe systems to try and keep things moving after they leave.

Why is is such a stretch to imagine that, should something occur that defeats them, that they wouldn't send out a universe wide message to activate whatever final failsafe they created? I think that fits the Titans to a science.

I don't recall that part at all, so i'm really interested to know what quest it is...but...if he called a titan...I'm going to have to assume a titan answered his phone?

[Chingylol]

Hmmm, would be interesting if it's Wrathion who is the main villain/one of the villians of the next xpac..

[Grocalis]

I don't recall that part at all, so i'm really interested to know what quest it is...but...if he called a titan...I'm going to have to assume a titan answered his phone?

Would take awhile to find it. You find some relics in the Wetlands and then summon a big hologram of a guy who is just like "woah, don't mess with our stuff or it might kill you." before the hologram vanishes. This was all in the original vanilla wow. The quest no longer exists since Cataclysm. Might have to find it someday.

[KrazyK923]

Hmmm, would be interesting if it's Wrathion who is the main villain/one of the villians of the next xpac..

I think it'd be interesting if a Villain was a Villain just because we disagreed with them ethically, and not because they're an asshole or corrupted/evil. But...I don't want Wrathion to be a villain lol. Then again, its only because I like Wrathion as a character and Blizzard doesn't have a good track record of treating their villains good storywise.

[SherbertLand]

Tyr was created to help watch over Ulduar. It is made clear in WOTLK that the Watchers are not designed to leave the areas of Ulduar for any reason. The fact Tyr is wandering around in areas outside Ulduar means either the Titans are pretty lax about it, or they are not around to scold him for over-reaching his influence.



Because as we have seen many times before, the Titans utilize "super-tech". If they suddenly came across something that likely obliterated them, they would send out messages to be intercepted by all computer systems on past worlds. A space S.O.S if you will. Since we are right now in Pandaria during this time, Wrathion gets bombarded with the message while playing around with the Thunder Forge, which is Titan tech. I am sure such a message could have also been picked up by the Forge of Wills or the Tribunal of Ages in Ulduar, but since that is a different continent we are no longer taking part, we will likely not see anything come of it.

P.S. I wish to reiterate. The WC3 manual implies that the Titans don't know about Sargeras and the Burning Legion. Later on the RPG did in fact say they knew about the Burning Legion, but such sources were later made NON-CANON by Blizzard. Until we find a new source implying they know about the Burning Legion, the WC3 manual is really all we have. To help refresh people, here is the relevant quotes.

"Apparently unaware of Sargeras’ mission to undo their myriad works, the Titans continued to move from world to world, shaping and ordering them as they saw fit."

Until new lore comes to light showing that the Titans knew about the Burning Legion and were just, for the most part, ignoring them, it makes more sense to play off them being ignorant.

Just because you have no better source doesn't mean you resort to a source that's completely incorrect.

[Arrashi]

I think that wrathion is simply suffering from severe case of "obvious traitor" syndrome. Sooner or later he will jump out pull off speech about how we helped him achieve his overcomplicated master-plan, and stab someone. Then he will turn into loot piniata.

[Grocalis]

Just because you have no better source doesn't mean you resort to a source that's completely incorrect.

The nature of "canon" is that everything is canon until overwritten by a more recent, official source. While the WC3 manual has been constantly overwritten over the years in many areas, the information in it is still considered canon until that specific passage is overwritten by a newer source. Otherwise we can't even discuss any of this because the only true canon would be anything we see in WoW with our eyes, and nothing in the game touches on the Burning Legion and Titan connection (Well, other then a book that copied and paste the exact passage I copied from the WC3 manual). Even WC2, WC3, etc... are suspect because all the events that happens in those stories were overwritten by novels and WoW. Remember when Sen'jin Village was is Dustwallow Marsh?

[Wazooty]

A few holes in the theory.

The Titans don't know about the Legion in the scope you are thinking. Otherwise they would have appeared during the War of the Ancients. As far as the Lore goes, the Titans don't even really know about Sargeras. The only source that hinted they did was the RPG, which has been written off as non-canon by Blizzard. Because of this, opening portal to Azeroth for the Legion wouldn't really draw the attention of the Titans.

That is even assuming the Titans still exist, since events in MoP hint that they have been killed.

It's been 10,000 years since the war of the ancients. Who knows what relationship the titans and the legion has now. The titans might be on the verge of losing a war with the legion for all we know and actually need OUR help.

[SherbertLand]

The nature of "canon" is that everything is canon until overwritten by a more recent, official source. While the WC3 manual has been constantly overwritten over the years in many areas, the information in it is still considered canon until that specific passage is overwritten by a newer source. Otherwise we can't even discuss any of this because the only true canon would be anything we see in WoW with our eyes, and nothing in the game touches on the Burning Legion and Titan connection (Well, other then a book that copied and paste the exact passage I copied from the WC3 manual). Even WC2, WC3, etc... are suspect because all the events that happens in those stories were overwritten by novels and WoW. Remember when Sen'jin Village was is Dustwallow Marsh?

It's not considered canon if the people who write the story says it wasn't. The RPG books were created to provide an engaging table-top role-playing experience, which sometimes required diverging from the established video game canon.

[Gurluas]

Would take awhile to find it. You find some relics in the Wetlands and then summon a big hologram of a guy who is just like "woah, don't mess with our stuff or it might kill you." before the hologram vanishes. This was all in the original vanilla wow. The quest no longer exists since Cataclysm. Might have to find it someday.

I think it's this:
http://www.wowpedia.org/Aman

[sebun]

His summoning was an automated process though, he definitely wasn't sent to the planet by the Titans because of Loken.

The summoning of Algalon is actually shown ingame when you kill Loken, if you don't believe this, go check what happens in the Loken's room when you kill him. It is then also confirmed that killing Loken summoned Algalon during the Valanyr quest line.

[Grocalis]

It's not considered canon if the people who write the story says it wasn't. The RPG books were created to provide an engaging table-top role-playing experience, which sometimes required diverging from the established video game canon.

When did I ever claim the RPG was canon? I already mentioned in the post you quoted that the RPG was non-canon. The quote I utilizes in the post you quoted was from the WC3 Manual. If you are arguing the RPG is not canon, then I am in agreement, since I never argued it was.

[KrazyK923]

The summoning of Algalon is actually shown ingame when you kill Loken, if you don't believe this, go check what happens in the Loken's room when you kill him. It is then also confirmed that killing Loken summoned Algalon during the Valanyr quest line.

Right, it was automated because it was tied to the death of Loken. Loken even hints to this in his death comment.

I meant that the Titans weren't sitting back watching on a jumbo screen (Or what ever is lore appropriate for them haha) and go "Oh shizz, lets check that out!" *pushes a button and sends a capsule with Algalon in it to Azeroth*

I was being facetious, just saying that I don't think the Titans were actively like spying on Azeroth. It was all automated, as we find out in Ulduar.

If that's true (And, I mean, it kind of is, because he -was- sent by the Titans), then I really doubt they're all dead. Unless they suddenly were all extinguished in the...what...2 years between Ulduar and ToT? My wording was off, and it came off like I was saying he wasn't sent by the Titans. That was incorrect and not what I meant to relay.

Edit: I was referring to this quote:

Archivum System says: Initiating query. The Algalon Failsafe is an automated emergency signal following a Prime Designate's demise.

---------- Post added 2013-04-30 at 10:50 PM ----------

Small update. I asked Dave Kosak on Twitter if Wrathion was Deathwing's legitimate heir, since some places (Like WoWPedia) claimed he was (As per Dave Kosak funny enough), and I got an answer:

We don't know who Wrathion's literal father is. Certainly he's in Deathwing's lineage. He considers DW to be his father, FWIW.

https://twitter.com/DaveKosak/status/329362547692150784

[Grocalis]

Small update. I asked Dave Kosak on Twitter if Wrathion was Deathwing's legitimate heir, since some places (Like WoWPedia) claimed he was (As per Dave Kosak funny enough), and I got an answer

Many people actually miss this, but technically Wrathion could have two mothers and two fathers.

If you do the quests in the Badlands, Rhea sends you to collect "wild" black dragon eggs from the large canyon near her. After you get the wild eggs, she reveals the captured black dragon Nyxondra, from which you steal more eggs. After this you go through some events to gather a Titan artifact, which a gnomes uses to purify the eggs. Yes, I said eggs. If you watch the small little event that occur, you will notice that the gnome set two eggs down, one "wild" egg and one of the eggs stolen from Nyxondra. The Titan devise hovers over both eggs and sucked out "darkness" from both, before lifting them from the ground and floating them into eachother. When they hit eachother, they transform into the egg that would become Wrathions.

I got a personal theory about it. I don't think the artifact purified a single egg as much as it searched and collected any "pure" DNA it could from the multiple eggs. It was basically attempting to find the DNA that once made Neltharion, the first of the Black Dragons, and thus makes Wrathion more of a clone then a son. Either way, he would be a closer genetic match to Deathwing then he would to the multiple Black Dragons that sired him, since the artifact would have reset his DNA to that of Neltharion before the Old Gods corrupted him.

[Haven]

Titans don't even really know about Sargeras.

Aggramar fought Sargeras, and has a half of his sword as a trophy. They know alright. But yes, if they cared, they had opportunities to intervene. They never had.

---------- Post added 2013-05-01 at 05:14 AM ----------

I think that wrathion is simply suffering from severe case of "obvious traitor" syndrome. Sooner or later he will jump out pull off speech about how we helped him achieve his overcomplicated master-plan, and stab someone. Then he will turn into loot piniata.

Highly possible, considering the "depth" of Blizzard's writing.

[Grocalis]

Aggramar fought Sargeras, and has a half of his sword as a trophy. They know alright. But yes, if they cared, they had opportunities to intervene. They never had.

Nope, the whole story of Aggramar fighting Sargeras was from the World of WarCraft RPG. Blizzard officially said that the entire series of books are not canon with the franchise as far as the writing staff goes. They don't even reference it. As far as the canon goes, there is nothing saying the Titans know that Sargeras is a demon lord.

[KrazyK923]

I got a personal theory about it. I don't think the artifact purified a single egg as much as it searched and collected any "pure" DNA it could from the multiple eggs. It was basically attempting to find the DNA that once made Neltharion, the first of the Black Dragons, and thus makes Wrathion more of a clone then a son. Either way, he would be a closer genetic match to Deathwing then he would to the multiple Black Dragons that sired him, since the artifact would have reset his DNA to that of Neltharion before the Old Gods corrupted him.

But the thing is that there were so very few Broodmothers left, that I believe the quest that has you kill the one in Twilight Highlands states she is the last one. Would it not be likely it was just eggs Nyxondra had that she simply layed before being captured, unless they're transporting eggs far across the world. With how pissy Black Dragons are about basically everything, I don't know if that is really likely.

And then there's the question of, "Well were the Aspects the only ones turned from proto-drakes into Dragons?" I mean, just from a biological standpoint, I'd have to say that's impossible. I don't know if the device is so much re-creating Neltharion's original DNA than just cleansing the Old God taint from them, as they seem exceedingly proficient at doing. I really like your theory though, it'd be interesting to see a confirmation of it just from a "I NEED TO KNOW ALL THE THINGS" standpoint because it honestly doesn't even really matter in the scope of the lore.

But I really asked the question because Dave Kosak himself said Wrathion was Deathwing's legitimate heir in 2012 with a WoW Insider interview. I guess the answer has changed.

As far as the canon goes, there is nothing saying the Titans know that Sargeras is a demon lord.

I donno, for a race that can space-travel and literally make and unmake worlds, I'm not sure it is reasonable that they would be completely ignorant of Sargeras. It's not like him and the Legion are exactly subtle about what they're doing.

[Grocalis]

But the thing is that there were so very few Broodmothers left, that I believe the quest that has you kill the one in Twilight Highlands states she is the last one. Would it not be likely it was just eggs Nyxondra had that she simply layed before being captured, unless they're transporting eggs far across the world. With how pissy Black Dragons are about basically everything, I don't know if that is really likely.

You are making a common mistake. Any female dragon can lay eggs, but those that are designated "Broodmothers" can lay them in mass quantities. Nyxondra herself was not a "Broodmother", but a female dragon that Rhea had captured and, in her own words, "encouraged" to lay eggs.

It is even pointed out in the quest chain that Lethor Ravine itself is a breeding ground designated by the black dragons. It's a place more then one goes to meet up with another and lay eggs. Nyxondra was simply one of these dragons. The wild eggs were supposed to be random eggs laid and left to hatch by these liaisons between the wild black dragons of the area.