Blue Post: "Southshore/Tarren Mill occurred b/c there were no BG's at the time"

[Sturmbringe]

People forget that Southshore/Tarren Mill occurred because there were no battlegrounds at the time

From time to time we get this kind of uninformed post from the Devs or the Staff which makes me wonder if they really played Vanilla. (Last time I saw that was when we had GC claiming that hybrid classes did not DPS during Vanilla raids).

I started playing in Dec 2005, and I will share with you my experience as a Night Elf Hunter levelling back in Vanilla in the server "Emeriss EU".

First of all, in case Blizzard forgot, Alterac Valley and Warsong Gulch were introduced on June 7th, 2005. Arathil Basin was introduced on Sep 13, 2005. Battlemaster porting (i.e. using the Battlemaster to port to a BG) was also introduced in patch 1.7, i.e. Sep 13, 2005.

Now, in Dec 2005 when I started playing, nobody really had a legit reason to hang around Arathil Highlands or Ashenvale or Hillsbrad Foothills/Alterac to join a Battleground since they could use the Battlemaster, but this is exactly what happened, i.e. there were LOTS of players who were used to travelling to Arathil Highlands or Ashenvale or Hillsbrad Foothills/Alterac to join Battlegrounds and this is exactly what they did. World PvP was the norm, and people played the game by leaving the capital and going out to have fun or ADVENTURE. Adventuring is something that WoW lost since WOTLK and they haven't been able to put it back to the game since.

Let me focus on the levelling experience:

-Ashenvale was a warzone. Skirmishes with Horde players started at about level 19 when the Horde players had to leave that outpost of theirs by the sea and travel next to Astranaar to complete quests. I still remember my first Horde kill which was an Orc Warrior whom I tried to kite and killed him with 50 health left. Merely travelling from Astranaar to Mesina's (?) Outpost to quest was a feat in and of itself since the road was abuzz with Horde players travelling up and down.

-Astranaar was frequently camped by level 60 players in PvP/Tier 1 or Tier 2 gear, but also, there were organized parties of Horde players at level 26ish attacking Astranaar en masse just for the hell of it. Now how coold was that.

-The road from Astranaar to the junction to Felwoord was a warzone as well. There was no place safe from the Horde, and to be alive and be allowed to quest, you had to earn it by killing enemy players who tried to prevent you from doing so. This is like the definition of World PvP.

After having a blast at Ashenvale, the player had to travel to the "other end of the world" and resume questing at Wetlands, which, apart from being a great zone, had maybe the best music theme in the game ever. Then the player travelled to Arathil Basin through the Thandol Span, and thus entered another warzone.

-ARATHIL HIGHLANDS was a warzone too. The Alliance outpost at AH where ppl could enter inside AB, was under constant attack by Horde level 60 players coming from Hammerfall, and the Alliance level 60's who travelled there either to join AB or check/purchase the gear sold there were defending. The road from the Alliance outpost to the Castle was a warzone as well. I remember being killed 4 or 5 times from the Alliance outpost to the Castle sometimes by level 60's but mostly by Horde player parties around my level. Just making it to the castle alive felt like an achievement. The whole ZONE was a warzone. Vanilla WoW really put the "WAR" into "WAR-CRAFT".

Finally, the player travelled to Hilssbrad Foothills where the real fun started.

-SOUTHSHORE was camped almost every day by members of a T1/T2 Horde raid called "Nerf Us" until abt 8pm when they started raiding. Once the player landed to Southshore, all hell broke loose. There were undead Rogues in D1, T1 and T2 jumping around, dwarf hunters fighting, Shamans and Paladins fighting it out. Really epic. People had gotten used to getting out and seek World PvP just for the sheer enjoyment of it although they didn't have to, b/c THAT WAS THE WAY THEY HAD BECOME ACCUSTOMED TO PLAYING THE GAME.

It didn't have anything to do with battlegrounds being existent or not in the game. It appears that some Blizzard employees didn't play Vanilla.

Players were ACCUSTOMED to fighting it out with the other faction all over the game world, and world PvP was the norm not the exception.

Honorable Mention:

1. Stranglethorn Vale levelling: Easily the most epic levelling experience in any MMORG ever. STV was THE ESSENCE of Vanilla world PvP. Fighting was CONSTANT and everywhere, people were getting killed fighting quest mobs by the other faction all the time, and even spots like King Bangalash and Nesingwary's camp were camped by level 60's. STV was hugely immersive, had the second best music theme in the game, great design and a very interesting story. There are people today who consider STV levelling during Vanilla their most cherished experience.

2. Blackrock Mountain The only know 40 man raid world PvP spot in the game's history. You had ppl going for LBRS 5 man, UBRS 10 man, and MC 40 man.

The road was from below up to the gates was cris-crossed with skeletons. There were people who camped two specific points. One was the area just beyond the gates, and the second area was the spawn point for people who died inside one of the instances and ressurected with sickness, which was below the Horde FP in Burning Steppes.

Often, the player would enter BRM during peak time (around 7pm) only to see the place littered with skeletons and about 20-40 players having at each other all over the place.

-------------------->To sum up, World PvP continued in Vanilla, just like it had before, well after the introduction of BG's and up to the end of Vanilla. The community was used to massive world PvP on a grand scale and greatly enjoyed it, so they kept doing as long as they could.

[bohapjut]

2. Blackrock Mountain The only know 40 man raid world PvP spot in the game's history. You had ppl going for LBRS 5 man, UBRS 10 man, and MC 40 man.

Don't forget Blackrock Depths!

[Annarion]

Yes, I remember all of those areas of conflict. I also remember when the BGs launched. The difference was noticeable. The 60s started having World PVP near the BG areas, when you had to queue from them. Then they added queueing from anywhere, and all of these places became deserted. Oh, people would try and form groups for it, but the light had gone out of it when you could pwn noobs in BGs and not have to haul out to the middle of fucking nowhere. BGs didn't kill world pvp, teleporting to instances from anywhere killed world pvp. We used to have duels over the summoning stones in TBC as well. That went out when porting via LFD came out. The Devs are right, the main thing is to get people out into the world. I can understand that LFD is too difficult to not port you in, but LFR, you know what instance you're queueing for, you should have to enter manually. Think about the entry to ToT right now if everyone in queue was sitting idle in front of the portal. There'd be constant conflict.

[melodramocracy]

There'd need to be some drastic changes, but this game would be a lot more interesting from a PvP perspective if world fights were more frequent, and had in-game benefits and risks. Server populations, gear and level imbalances etc all make this pretty difficult... but almost everything they'd need is already in-game in some fashion.


I dunno, I kind of like the idea of logging in, hopping onto a player controlled airship with 30 or so other players, and attempting to take over the opponents capital.. and seeing how long it could be held while their reinforcements arrive.

[Deleted]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1a7p0GgDcM

Man, I remember the Horde raids starting at Crossroads. Usually, a couple of Alliance rogues would go into Crossoads, kill some players/quest givers, and those players would call in reinforcements from Orgrimmar. One time, we had two raids worth of Horde players, about half of which were level 60 defending Crossroads.

We then started a retaliation campaign, going through Ashenvale, completely destroying Astranaar, going to Darkshore and taking the boat to Darnassus, killing Tyrande. (back then there was no reward for this!!!). Then we took the boat to Stormwind, where a third Horde raid was already attacking the front gates. We killed Bolvar and then crashed the server

[Deadmedic]

Yes, I remember all of those areas of conflict. I also remember when the BGs launched. The difference was noticeable. The 60s started having World PVP near the BG areas, when you had to queue from them. Then they added queueing from anywhere, and all of these places became deserted. Oh, people would try and form groups for it, but the light had gone out of it when you could pwn noobs in BGs and not have to haul out to the middle of fucking nowhere. BGs didn't kill world pvp, teleporting to instances from anywhere killed world pvp. We used to have duels over the summoning stones in TBC as well. That went out when porting via LFD came out. The Devs are right, the main thing is to get people out into the world. I can understand that LFD is too difficult to not port you in, but LFR, you know what instance you're queueing for, you should have to enter manually. Think about the entry to ToT right now if everyone in queue was sitting idle in front of the portal. There'd be constant conflict.

i would legit love it if in order to queue for lfr you needed to be at the stone, it might be a hard sell to the lazy ppl

[Deleted]

You're right OP. I started playing in BC, and though the conflicts were not as bad anymore as you say they were in Classic, there still were fights. Also, you forgat Barrens.

But still, people didn't fight in the world because there were no battlegrounds, they fought for fun.

[Sturmbringe]

i would legit love it if in order to queue for lfr you needed to be at the stone, it might be a hard sell to the lazy ppl

The game has long since abandoned the Vanilla World PvP paradigm probably b/c the Devs consider Vanilla bad design. I don't see this game ever returning back to the Vanilla World PvP paradigm.

You're right OP. I started playing in BC, and though the conflicts were not as bad anymore as you say they were in Classic, there still were fights. Also, you forgat Barrens.

But still, people didn't fight in the world because there were no battlegrounds, they fought for fun.

Exactly. Being out in the world in Vanilla was fun.

TBC had some World PvP too, esp in Hellfire Peninsula, Zangarmarsh and Terrokar Forrest. This b/c the Devs designed TBC with world PvP on their mind right from the start. Then, near the end of TBC we had Island of Quel Danas and the Throne of KJ introduced which had lots of PvP action, but it wasn't as cool Hellfire Peninsula World PvP was when TBC first went live and for the first months after that.

TBC was my favourite expansion.

[huth]

People killed world PvP by choosing not to go out of their way to engage in it. All of you are aware of that, but it appears that you don't understand what that means.

The only way Blizzard can get world PvP running again is by forcing people to participate, and i doubt that'd go over well.

I can understand that LFD is too difficult to not port you in, but LFR, you know what instance you're queueing for, you should have to enter manually. Think about the entry to ToT right now if everyone in queue was sitting idle in front of the portal. There'd be constant conflict.

I also know how much complaining and bitching about people not getting their asses in the instance that would generate. Constant fighting in front of the raid certainly wouldn't improve that.

[melodramocracy]

People killed world PvP by choosing not to go out of their way to engage in it. All of you are aware of that, but it appears that you don't understand what that means.

The only way Blizzard can get world PvP running again is by forcing people to participate, and i doubt that'd go over well.

Like everything else in the game, all it needs is rewards, and people would be quite active in it.

[Deleted]

Don't see why the blue was wrong. World pvp started just because at the origin, but what certainly reinforced it was introducing the honor system before BGs. Before that, you had your battle time to time in some places. The instant the honor system hit, you knew SS/TM had a 24h battle, and you could go anytime and get HKs. It lingered well after bgs came, but the honor system without bgs was what made it permanent.

[Pull My Finger]

From time to time we get this kind of uninformed post from the Devs or the Staff which makes me wonder if they really played Vanilla. (Last time I saw that was when we had GC claiming that hybrid classes did not DPS during Vanilla raids).

I started playing in Dec 2005, and I will share with you my experience as a Night Elf Hunter levelling back in Vanilla in the server "Emeriss EU".

Woah, come off your high horse, dude. Listen to yourself for a second. Now you're the competent one while the dev isn't. Get a grip.

Besides, it's absolutely true, Tarren's Mill was popular because there wasn't any real PvP content in the game. You see, I started playing in February 2005 and that's exactly what I remember. The longer we had the BGs, the less open world stuff would go off. Besides, the places where the people usually clashed varied depending on the server.

Oh, and that thing about hybrids - true as well, nobody let hybrids dps in progress raids and rightfully so because they couldn't.

But of course, you can stay living in your dream world where the developers know virtually nothing about their own game, but you should be the lead designer instead. They're all morons, but you got it figured out. Yeah dude. Ridiculous.

[Dald]

Playing since 2005, calling it Arathil. :\

I liked queueing from the battlemaster in the AV cave and we regularly attacked the Alliance AB queueing hole/crag. Nearly every day we would gather up 10 or so at least and sack, or try to sack the Alliance AB spot. I still remember that one NPC being a huge pain in the ass to deal with, Samuel Hawke I believe.

[Namalia]

Tarren Mill - SS / Astranaar - Crossroads happened because the players made it happen. If enough players wanted it to happen now, it would be happening still. The World PvPer is a dieing breed. I was part of the PvP community back then, I can even remember watching a horde shaman coming into Astranaar as I was leveling my NE druid in 2006 and vowing to come back and rock his socks when I hit 60. (The wife and I definitely accomplished that)

I refuse to participate in PvP now simply because of the virulent attitudes I have seen in BGs. I'm always a healer, but whenever I go into a BG it's always "This team sucks." or "Let them win." or "L2P noobs!". It seems that more PvPers are into berating other players than actually working as a team to win and/or protecting those of us trying to keep them alive.

As far as World PvP goes, the same applies. World PvP anymore has degenerated into a quorum of lowbie gankers that run away the instant someone of their level shows up. It is dead, and will remain that way unless the players that want fair world PvP show up and start organizing it. Nothing Blizzard will do will be able to make people that don't want to PvP actually PvP.

[Slowpoke is a Gamer]

Blizz is right. BGs were easier to assemble, and gave tangible rewards. It only got worse when you could sit afk in SW/ORG and farm BGs. Easier yet when bottling became popular.

[Deleted]

a) LFR and LFD u would actually have to go through the entrance to enter.
b) u could que to a BG only from the battlemasters in eg Arathi Highlands
c) flying mounts, gtfo plz

done, WoW has been saved.

[chaotus]

World pvp is dead right now because there is a lack of communication. 1vs1 is fun in an outdoor setting, throw some mobs in and it become crazy fun and crazy aggravating... throw a few more players from the other guy and now you are being ganked and can't even fight back.

What about if the second you flagged for pvp for every enemy target that outnumbered you in a certain radius you gained a buff similar in nature the world bosses.

or

People who flag for combat get a huge radial track that all players can see, that way non-flagged rogues won't show up until they gank, have the target lead you to a 30 or 40 yd circle so not to screw up their restealthing...

or

Give you a vengeance like stacking effect for everytime you die to the same killing blow that way people would be discouraged from mercilessly ganking but instead would work in pairs to gank, which would result in more pvp expierences being 2v2 then 1v2 or 1v3 which would cause more chances for a healer or tank to be involved and extend the fight.


I just think you got encourage people to bring friends to a fight since right now everyone feel less like a warrior and more like a god.

[Pull My Finger]

a) LFR and LFD u would actually have to go through the entrance to enter.
b) u could que to a BG only from the battlemasters in eg Arathi Highlands
c) flying mounts, gtfo plz

done, WoW has been saved.

Yeah, annoying people who actually have something completely different in mind would totally save WoW. The hilarious thing about it is that you're probably serious.

[MaccaBird]

My first character was a human mage on Dark Iron server. Getting him to 60 was such a fantastic adventure, but I was such a noob and was awful at PvP. Eventually I started a NE rogue which was a extremely fun to level on a PvP server (especially when ambush could one hit a player). STV was so much fun. I spent more time fighting with horde players than I did leveling, but at the time I didn't care. There wasn't a rush to get to 60 and start endgame and gearing. Frankly, I didn't even want to. the leveling process was slow, but it was by no means painful. I didn't mind stopping to PvP, or going on long walks (premount days) to get to far away zones for a quest, only to have to return back to the original zone (looking at you Noggenfogger elixir).

I quit about 2.5 years ago, but I still troll these forums for threads like these. I want to start playing again, but then I get hit with this nostalgia, and I know the current game does not have what i'm looking for.