4th raid difficulty, Easy Mode, should it happen?

[Crashdummy]

But everyone can get the skill needed.
They just dont want to, yet somehow reason that they should complain.....

No, not everyone.

[Deleted]

Interesting conundrum you found yourself in. According to the philosphy of this thread, if you don't want to, than you don't deserve that which are you aren't will to put the effort into obtaining.

I mean, the information is there and easily accessible to anyway who wants it bad enough. It's almost like you want to be spoon feed the information instead of earning it.

Yeah clearly that's how discussions are held on these forums.No one needs to explain their opinions.Just refer others to one of your possible posts on the thread earlier.
Do you actually believe this shit or you're just that much of an ally to your friend who's backed into a corner unable to explain himself whle continuously mumbling bout earlier posts and how tiring it is to explain one's own opinion?

[Deleted]

1.5 million players raided in Wrath.

So, 1.5 million out 12 million is = 12.5%. Divide that to beer league, normal and heroic. Heroic = 1.5%, Normal = 4%, Beer League = 7%. Approximately ofc. Again, not enough.

[Maelstrom51]

I get a giggle out of this. I believe that most heroic guild on Heroic Lei Shen are probably in the single digits and even being on him right now, means that everyone is trying and doing their jobs but it hasnt worked out yet. No one is CRYING and WHINING like INFANTS, instead we research and i look at my spec, haste breakpoints, and anything else i can think of to get better know he will die soon. There is your difference. Put on your big boy pants and try it sometime.

Again, I am merely pointing out that different players have different skill caps. And unless you consider your guild to be at the same level of skill as Method or Paragon, how can you say that all it takes to get better is 30 minutes of reading up and practicing?

By the way, I have no doubt you will eventually kill the boss. But that has nothing to do with my current argument with you - I am saying that people have very real limitations on their skill, be it coordination, multitasking, speed of thinking, etc. The fact that your guild hasn't killed H Lei Shen yet shows just that - you are all very dedicated, yet you are months behind some others. You are less skilled. And I'm sure that, if it was possible, you would be improving still. But, as your past progression rate shows, you are consistently months behind other guilds. You are not getting any better. Your guild has hit a wall on becoming better players. Just like many other players, which we call bad. The only difference is, the wall in your guild's skill level is significantly higher than the average.

Also, for future note, I personally don't have a problem with the current difficulty. Its just that I have something called empathy.

[Osmeric]

Around 500 000 people raided in Wrath.

This is a gross underestimate. For example, by early Dec. 2010, close to 60K guilds had downed Marrowgar 25. That's 1.5M.

Contrast that to right now, where most guilds are raiding in 10 man mode, and about 25K guilds have downed a boss in ToT. That's down by a factor of about six.

(both estimates ignore bench/multiple raid teams, and the Wrath estimate ignores 10 man-only raiders)

[anaxie]

I would rather not type out a block of text when something is already eloquently explained elsewhere.

Well I'm sure that person would be much better to speak with. Sadly I have the misfortune to be speaking with Osmer, Glorious, and whoever else is tagging along for the ride. The result is an incoherent huge joke and frankly an sad representation for struggling Normal mode players. I have Empathy for the struggling 10 man guild trying to get players progress and learn and make ends meet. I've even helped them kill those bosses and tried to teach them. I have zero empathy for the players who stamp their feet whine and cry. Players such as these are toxic and should be removed from any gaming community because they are directly part of the problem for the harsh environment new wide eyed players playing the game for the first time have to look to for raiding. And it is such a trajedy for every single player.

That is the real Hammer that fell, and you know what? The nail it drove straight into WoW that is making it hemorage that is because of the attitude of the guilds that are supposed to help them become better players. No one is a heroic player overnight. I sure as hell wasn't. However, thankfully I came up at a time where the playerbase wasn't a toxic entitled mess. It's ok though my peers still enjoy the challenge this game has left and the devs still feed us some of the best content I've ever had.

[Ragedaug]

Yeah clearly that's how discussions are held on these forums.No one needs to explain their opinions.Just refer others to one of your possible posts on the thread earlier.
Do you actually believe this shit or you're just that much of an ally to your friend who's backed into a corner unable to explain himself continuously mumbling bout earlier posts and how tiring it is to explain one's own opinion?

I've seen him explain the same points to the same people asking the same dumb questions for 60 pages now.

While my statements to you are tongue-in-cheek making a point to illustrate your rediculousness - my honest opinion is that you already know the information you are looking for and get excited playing the obtuse poster to see how infuriated you can make a complete stranger. It seems kinda psychotic to me, but hey, I'm no doctor.

[isadorr]

No they aren't, it's you who's doing the crying. The players that are actually working on Heroic Lei Shen couldn't give two craps about the difficulty level of Normal modes and who gets to participate it. The truly good/gifted/dedicated guild are worried and focused on Heroic mode. But hey at least you got Normals all to yourself AMIRITE?

---------- Post added 2013-05-11 at 03:54 AM ----------



1.5 million players raided in Wrath.

So you talk to players in Heroic guilds that are on Lein Shen because i am friends with lots of players in very good guilds as we share tactics once progression slows and believe me the joke is on you. No one cares because you choose to be lazy and be bad but now you are telling me what the top guilds do lol. We actually try to also help friends in casual guilds and this is why this is so much BS. People dont know their class/toon/spec but think they should clear normals. I help my friends boot the bad and i either play a alt with them if i can or i help them out with recruiting.

Guess what? They then progress through content, normals. Last guild was at 4/13 and i helped out and they are now 10/13, why? Because i helped the people who would take the advice and booted the others who wouldnt.

You do Anaxie runs a forum and helps out lots of people all of the time right? He probably sees alot of what i see with casual guilds in normals and its not the difficulty, its pure laziness.

[Deleted]

I would rather not type out a block of text when something is already eloquently explained elsewhere.

Well you know what,you're still completely wrong.Why don't you check one of the posts in my post history.I once explained this in another thread.
You'll find my arguments there.

[Deleted]

This is a gross underestimate. For example, by early Dec. 2010, close to 60K guilds had downed Marrowgar 25. That's 1.5M.

Contrast that to right now, where most guilds are raiding in 10 man mode, and about 25K guilds have downed a boss in ToT. That's down by a factor of about six.

(both estimates ignore bench/multiple raid teams, and the Wrath estimate ignores 10 man-only raiders)

Ok, 1.5 million. Still not enough.

[Osmeric]

So, 1.5 million out 12 million is = 12.5%. Divide that to beer league, normal and heroic. Heroic = 1.5%, Normal = 4%, Beer League = 7%. Approximately ofc. Again, not enough.

The point is, the number of excluded raiders, who were fine with Wrath level of difficulty -- which I will argue falls into the current LFR - Normal hole -- greatly exceeds the total number of who are currently raiding normal/heroic raids.

If that first group isn't large enough to cater to, neither is the group of current raiders.

[isadorr]

Again, I am merely pointing out that different players have different skill caps. And unless you consider your guild to be at the same level of skill as Method or Paragon, how can you say that all it takes to get better is 30 minutes of reading up and practicing?

By the way, I have no doubt you will eventually kill the boss. But that has nothing to do with my current argument with you - I am saying that people have very real limitations on their skill, be it coordination, multitasking, speed of thinking, etc. The fact that your guild hasn't killed H Lei Shen yet shows just that - you are all very dedicated, yet you are months behind some others. You are less skilled. And I'm sure that, if it was possible, you would be improving still. But, as your past progression rate shows, you are consistently months behind other guilds. You are not getting any better. Your guild has hit a wall on becoming better players. Just like many other players, which we call bad. The only difference is, the wall in your guild's skill level is significantly higher than the average.

Also, for future note, I personally don't have a problem with the current difficulty. Its just that I have something called empathy.

Progression is all about getting the right people together and recruiting from this very player base we are talking about isnt the best solution for progression. Players play for years and dont know their own class, rotations, gemming, and so on. To recruit we talk to other high end guilds and have alts come to our guild or to theirs because there is more demand then supply of good players.

Why? Because nerfs do not make a player better, they make them think they are better.

[Ragedaug]

So, 1.5 million out 12 million is = 12.5%. Divide that to beer league, normal and heroic. Heroic = 1.5%, Normal = 4%, Beer League = 7%. Approximately ofc. Again, not enough.

What are you trying to prove with all that math? I put it into a math equation engine and all that came out was smoke.

[anaxie]

Again, I am merely pointing out that different players have different skill caps. And unless you consider your guild to be at the same level of skill as Method or Paragon, how can you say that all it takes to get better is 30 minutes of reading up and practicing?

By the way, I have no doubt you will eventually kill the boss. But that has nothing to do with my current argument with you - I am saying that people have very real limitations on their skill, be it coordination, multitasking, speed of thinking, etc. The fact that your guild hasn't killed H Lei Shen yet shows just that - you are all very dedicated, yet you are months behind some others. You are less skilled. And I'm sure that, if it was possible, you would be improving still. But, as your past progression rate shows, you are consistently months behind other guilds. You are not getting any better. Your guild has hit a wall on becoming better players. Just like many other players, which we call bad. The only difference is, the wall in your guild's skill level is significantly higher than the average.

Also, for future note, I personally don't have a problem with the current difficulty. Its just that I have something called empathy.

It's not less skilled. It's time investment. You know what happens to guilds that raid more in a week then some players do in a month or even two months? They burn themselves out and quit the game. While yes Method is insanely good and have the raid dps that could rival gods and titans. The vast majority of the top guilds are top because of grossly huge time investments.

[Ragedaug]

Progression is all about getting the right people together and recruiting from this very player base we are talking about isnt the best solution for progression. Players play for years and dont know their own class, rotations, gemming, and so on. To recruit we talk to other high end guilds and have alts come to our guild or to theirs because there is more demand then supply of good players.

Why? Because nerfs do not make a player better, they make them think they are better.

Progression can also be about having fun with friends.

[Deleted]

The point is, the number of excluded raiders, who were fine with Wrath level of difficulty -- which I will argue falls into the current LFR - Normal hole -- greatly exceeds the total number of who are currently raiding normal/heroic raids.

If that first group isn't large enough to cater to, neither is the group of current raiders.

TBH, we can argue as much as we want but we don't know numbers. We only know how many people raided. Where are all those people and why they left - who knows. Maybe some from the beer league are happy with LFR, can this be possibility?

[Gondlem]

Normal mode ToT really doesn't require "reflexes". I feel like people are going to really extreme lengths to justify the notion that content they probably haven't even tried is "too difficult". Most of the fights have a basic gear requirement which can be met through farming T14, LFR and VP gear, and they have simple mechanics you have to learn and follow - kill this target now, dispel this debuff now, dodge this beam etc. If you take those mechanics out, you're left with content that basically anyone with a pulse can clear, which is what LFR is for. There's three difficulty settings and they cover the broad spectrum of the population pretty well.

The reason less people are raiding these days is because LFR exists as an alternative, so people are not compelled to go through the hassle of finding a guild and meeting raid times when they can just do LFR instead and still get decent gear and see the artwork, and because less people are playing the game. It's older. People who are motivated and want to be in a raiding guild can easily find one that is doing ToT. There's thousands of them.

ToT has a gear check, so people will need to get their 500+ ilvl or whatever before doing it, but for the most part it's pretty managable and the same guilds who were gradually progressing through normal mode last tier are doing the same here. That's a much better model than making it puggable, since that would create a situation where most guilds cleared it and were left with nothing to do, which is what happened in Dragon Soul.

[isadorr]

Progression can also be about having fun with friends.

That is fine but dont confuse raiding for fun with raiding for progression. You can do both but dont expect to compete with other guilds based solely on you logging into the game.

---------- Post added 2013-05-11 at 04:07 AM ----------

It's not less skilled. It's time investment. You know what happens to guilds that raid more in a week then some players do in a month or even two months? They burn themselves out and quit the game. While yes Method is insanely good and have the raid dps that could rival gods and titans. The vast majority of the top guilds are top because of grossly huge time investments.

Yes they are actual GODS lol.

[Deleted]

What are you trying to prove with all that math? I put it into a math equation engine and all that came out was smoke.

I am trying to prove it's not large group of people who are stuck in between LFR and normals.

[Osmeric]

TBH, we can argue as much as we want but we don't know numbers.

So, you've gone from "there aren't enough" to "we don't know the numbers". Progress of a sort.