Aethas may not be so innocent after all (SPOILER)

[Dreknar20]

using Aethas as a puppet ambassador to sweet-talk with Lor'themar for, you know, mends shatterd bonds they had a HUGE responsibility about it.

Old hatrds die hard
To me that is a common theme throughout the Warcraft Saga

[Talen]

The Alliance Emissary? It used a human skin on that mission IIRC.

It's been a while. I seem to recall glowing eyes

EJL

[Aquamonkey]

It's been a while. I seem to recall glowing eyes

The emissary was definitely human (note the lack of huge, pointy ears). Glowing eyes doesn't mean elf. Kael'thas didn't have glowing eyes; neither did elven archers.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NjWb-agUvRs

[Deleted]

The Alliance Emissary? It used a human skin on that mission IIRC.



What we know is that Lor'themar Theron exiled elves who were unwilling to accept Rommath's teachings (InSotS). Vereesa and her people were among them (hinted at in InSoTS; made clear in Cata). When it became apparent that the blood elves were going to be admitted into Dalaran, she founded the Silver Covenant (those who share her bitterness) to oppose them.

Your own version of events just doesn't fit with anything we've been told. Shit, Kael'thas still spoke for the Kirin Tor throughout the Dungeons of Dalaran mission ("I claim these resources for the Kirin Tor. The humans don't deserve them."); the Kirin Tor was that much of a non-entity after Dalaran was destroyed. Yet, you think there was a massive group of invisible Kirin Tor high elves hanging around Dalaran's ruins, shouting about how much they hate fel power before Kael had even been into Outland? Silly.

What own verson? To suggest that there were no High Elves living in Dalaran - to suggest that when the Sunreavers came to Dalaran to be readmitted into it they all came back and said "no we won't let that happen" is just silly.

Tell me, who was at Dalaran after it was destroyed? Who came back and rebuilt it? All of the humans and high elves fled the city but only the humans came back to rebuild it? And after Kael sided with the Naga there were no high elves left at all in Dalaran and all of them came back just prior to WotLK only to oppose the Blood Elves rejoining the Kirin Tor? Look I can not find any source talking specifically about all of this, so no, I don't have anything to back up my claims, other than logic and reason. I don't think that when Kael'thas sided with the Naga they rounded up all of the High Elves living in Dalaran, who had nothing to do with what Kael'thas did. I don't think that there are any of Kael'thas forces that did not either follow him to Outland or Silvermoon and then became fel-corrupted.

The Alliance Emissary? It used a human skin on that mission IIRC.
An unsourced trivia note isn't a source. Especially one derived from RPG content.

If you're not accepting Wowpedia as a source fine. I'm not gonna go through all of the sources regarding Stormwind just to please you. To refute this as a fact seems silly, and I bet you and everyone else would use it as a fact if it suited his own arguments.

Seriously guys, just stop reasoning with Nindoriel. It's just creating a gigantic off-topic, he will never admits facts that will bump against his undying favoritism. When someone says :



OR doesn't know or purposely ignore facts, cutting and resewing the story to better convienience.

The Sunreavers were blood elves under Lor'themar, as all the others, they are simply the major part of the blood elves that went to Northrend during Wotlk that decided to accept an HELP'S REQUEST of the Kirint Tor, PLEADING the Blood Elves to give some of their mages for cover their asses against Malygos, using Aethas as a puppet ambassador to sweet-talk with Lor'themar for, you know, mends shatterd bonds they had a HUGE responsibility about it.

The Sunreavers were not under Lor'themar, they were under Aethas. Lor'themar didn't even want to support them in his leader short story. Yes they did plead to rejoin the Kirin Tor, it's explained in the exact same short story. You're purposely ignoring facts it seems, not me.

[Count Zero]

He's a mage, he cast mirror image, explains all the different Kaelthas' and his apparent resurrection perfectly.

Or soulshards/soulstones

[Dreknar20]

I don't think that when Kael'thas sided with the Naga they rounded up all of the High Elves living in Dalaran, who had nothing to do with what Kael'thas did. I don't think that there are any of Kael'thas forces that did not either follow him to Outland or Silvermoon and then became fel-corrupted. .

Do you not understand?
There was NO High Elf Blood Elf split AT THAT TIME. There were only Elves. And all Elves in Garitho's army served under Kael'thas

At that point on history there was ZERO difference between elves. All of them were one and the same.
They were technically ALL Blood Elves since Kael took it upon himself to re-name his entire race.

---------- Post added 2013-05-12 at 09:51 AM ----------

Tell me, who was at Dalaran after it was destroyed? Who came back and rebuilt it? All of the humans and high elves fled the city but only the humans came back to rebuild it? And after Kael sided with the Naga there were no high elves left at all in Dalaran.

Exactly, because ALL Elves were imprisoned. But some came back after the events of the Third War.

Your confusing yourself trying to differentiate Blood Elves and High Elves. During the Third War they were ALL Blood Elves. No High Elves only Blood Elves.

[Darth-Piekus]

One more time another patch comes and confirms what I was saying and of course a blow to the face of everyone that was making fun of my opinions of that matter. How do you feel that you were wrong one more time. Seems that Aethas wasn't innocent after all.

[Zaelsino]

What own verson? To suggest that there were no High Elves living in Dalaran - to suggest that when the Sunreavers came to Dalaran to be readmitted into it they all came back and said "no we won't let that happen" is just silly.

Vereesa went to Dalaran after she was exiled from Quel'Thalas; it's suggested the rest of the SC did too, which is why they're so embittered and hostile towards the blood elves. In that twitch podcast a while back, Kosak said that the SC jumped on the chance to "get even" with the blood elves during the Purge of Dalaran and "put them in their place." That was kind of the poetry of the purge. The blood elves (well, their government) had kicked the high elves out of Quel'Thalas, the high elves kicked the blood elves out of Dalaran. The SC helped rebuild Dalaran and had been living there ever since their banishment from their other home. But that didn't happen until Rommath had returned to Quel'Thalas from Outland, which means a number of them (their leader included) weren't in Dalaran at that time.

What's so difficult to comprehend about that? What about that (surprisingly straightforward, for Blizzard) timeline strikes you as out of place?

Tell me, who was at Dalaran after it was destroyed?

No one, until Garithos had retaken the city from the Scourge and Kael'thas had arrived to defend it. It was a scourged war zone under constant siege from the undead on all sides. Keep in mind that the Kirin Tor themselves didn't return to retake and rebuild their city until, and I quote, "months after" this entire fiasco; Jaina was told by Anton to take Kirin Tor survivors to Kalimdor, while most of the others were killed by Archimonde. It took, as said, "months" for the Kirin Tor to resurge, rebuild, and retake their city, a while after Garithos and Kael had both gone. Most likely with the help of Vereesa and the other high elf exiles.

Who came back and rebuilt it? All of the humans and high elves fled the city but only the humans came back to rebuild it?

This where your argument falls apart. The fact of the matter is that the Kirin Tor (let alone "high elves" of any kind) were treated as a non-entity throughout these events. They had no power and no presence; in fact, Kael'thas was still treated as the elven representative of the Kirin Tor throughout it.

Just think about it. There are members of the Sunreavers who had served Dalaran for hundreds and hundreds of years; likewise with the Silver Covenant. But these two organizations didn't exist back then. They were all just high elves of Dalaran, and a LOT of them (elves who would eventually belong to either group) returned home to Quel'Thalas after the scourging. Some of them rejoined the Kirin Tor after their banishment, others rejoined it under the Sunreavers' banner. Maybe some never left it at all. You seem hell-bent on making a divide in the sand before any of this occurred, but it just didn't exist during the time these events took place.

And after Kael sided with the Naga there were no high elves left at all in Dalaran and all of them came back just prior to WotLK only to oppose the Blood Elves rejoining the Kirin Tor?

High elves were kicked out of Quel'Thalas before TBC. Some of them would have rejoined Dalaran a hell of a long time before WotLK.

Look I can not find any source talking specifically about all of this, so no, I don't have anything to back up my claims, other than logic and reason. I don't think that when Kael'thas sided with the Naga they rounded up all of the High Elves living in Dalaran, who had nothing to do with what Kael'thas did. I don't think that there are any of Kael'thas forces that did not either follow him to Outland or Silvermoon and then became fel-corrupted.

Here's the thing: there is nothing to suggest any high elves were living in Dalaran at that point. There is nothing to suggest ANYONE was "living" in Dalaran at that point. The city's ruins were a war zone under constant siege by the Scourge, and was turned into Garithos's (later Kael's) base of military operations. There's nothing to suggest anyone had renounced the "blood elf" name at that point, either; that only came after Kael met Illidan.

We're straight up told that the Kirin Tor only returned to rebuild Dalaran "some months after" these events. That there was a group of invisible, militant high elves living in the city's ruins that were somehow exempt to Garithos' high elven racism is fanfiction. Even the ones that didn't return home to Quel'Thalas with Kael in Rise of the Lich King still weren't in Dalaran during all this.

Really, I'm not trying to downplay the Silver Covenant here. Their ranks obviously include longtime mages of Dalaran, just the Sunreavers do. You're just massively jumping the gun with the eventual blood/high elf divide; and more importantly, the actual reasons for it.

If you're not accepting Wowpedia as a source fine. I'm not gonna go through all of the sources regarding Stormwind just to please you. To refute this as a fact seems silly, and I bet you and everyone else would use it as a fact if it suited his own arguments.

If it makes you feel any better, one of the admins deleted that line on the grounds of it being non-canon RPG bunk.

[Zulkhan]

The Sunreavers were not under Lor'themar, they were under Aethas. Lor'themar didn't even want to support them in his leader short story. Yes they did plead to rejoin the Kirin Tor, it's explained in the exact same short story. You're purposely ignoring facts it seems, not me.

The Sunreavers WERE under Lor'themar, THEN under Aethas. And, just for info, Aethas was already a Kirin Tor member. The Sunreavers adopted their name when, in Northrend, they decided to follow Aethas and accept the request of the Kirin Tor, but before that they were just common blood elves mages of Silvermoon. They were under Lor'themar's leadership before, and because of that the "Sunreavers" couldn't take any decision by their own, and if it wasn't for Sylvanas who blackmailed Lor'themar, not even a single blood elf would have gone to Northrend, nor rejoined the Kirin Tor. But the best part is that you continue to say they "plead the Kirin Tor" when is wrote clearly that the Kirin Tor sent Aethas for an help's request, sweet-talking false diplomacy. This is wrote there. What are you claiming for not.

Seriously, i don't know if you have serious understanding problems or you're just a troll.

One more time another patch comes and confirms what I was saying and of course a blow to the face of everyone that was making fun of my opinions of that matter. How do you feel that you were wrong one more time. Seems that Aethas wasn't innocent after all.

...because of a little detail we already knew? Seems premature at best.

Old hatrds die hard

Especially when properly "nourished". The violent /gkick from Dalaran didn't help at all.

[Combatbutler]

I wrote reason why he had done this on page 3.

I am sorry but your reason is entirely out of proportion, it goes entirely against established lore, a small betrayal is of course possible, but what you described is bad fanfiction.


Blizzard is about to create another Benedictus for the hell of it.

Yeah he renamed them, but that didn't make them fel-corrupted. Curiously there are still High Elves.

You don't need fel corruption to be a blood elf.

http://www.wowpedia.org/Lanesh_the_Steelweaver

[Deleted]

Aethas Sunweaver= (K)ae(l)thas Sun(strider)weaver

Go figure..Dalaran mearly a setback!

I've heard that theory before, & I'm pretty sure they debunked it. however, could you imagine the reaction if it turned out to be true....

[Zulkhan]

I am sorry but your reason is entirely out of proportion, it goes entirely against established lore, a small betrayal is of course possible, but what you described is bad fanfiction.


Blizzard is about to create another Benedictus for the hell of it.

With the difference that Benedictus had very too few explanations in game, but hints that made logical his betrayal existed. But Aethas? He's just a mage. There is no excuse for sudden change of mind like dreadful visions of who knows what. When sha-influenced he even spat his hidden desire to "free" the Blood Eleves by the "yoke of the Horde". He's even mocking Lor'themar for doing all that his "master" Garrosh says, before such event. And all of this happened before becoming less Alliance lover and a little more Horde affiliated because of the Purge, and just few quests before of the theft of the Bell.

Aethas being a die-hard Garrosh's loyalist doesn't make sense even now that is a LITTLE more Horde affliated. You can imagine how much sense that had before the Purge.

[Spichora]

I am sorry but your reason is entirely out of proportion, it goes entirely against established lore, a small betrayal is of course possible, but what you described is bad fanfiction.


Blizzard is about to create another Benedictus for the hell of it.

Why not? Aethas got reason to kill High Elves he had reason to get rid of Jaina if he is Garroshs agent. And he surely would use Dalaraan as Horde weapon. Why not Garrosh would tell
- I have grand task for you.
-What Task?
-Get Dalaraan for the Horde and you will be my champion.
-Hell no way.
-You will get chance to kill Jaina and High elf bitch
-OK.

I believe that he is a Traitor and has nothing to do with Benedictus. Benedictus has gone mad because of Deathwing you remember "I looked into the eye of dragon and despaired". Or another version is that he saw the visions that made him believe that this pass what he had been following is just a "This is a blessing we simply cannot comprehend." (like Murozond said). He saw something so horrible in his vision that made him believe his this pass he took was better way.
Aethas has nothing to do with Benedictus ! Aethas is simply a Traitor.

[Zaelsino]

Aethas didn't want to kill high elves. In In the Shadow of the Sun, he wanted to bridge their gaps and get on with them, which he was starting to succeed at after Wrath, if Jaina's vision was anything to go by. Why would he throw all that away to, uh... kill high elves?

I don't doubt that he's a traitor at this point, but that's a pretty backwards and inconsistent reason for it.

[Talen]

Aethas didn't want to kill high elves. In In the Shadow of the Sun, he wanted to bridge their gaps and get on with them, which he was starting to succeed at after Wrath, if Jaina's vision was anything to go by. Why would he throw all that away to, uh... kill high elves?

I don't doubt that he's a traitor at this point, but that's a pretty backwards and inconsistent reason for it.

It does seem as if Blizzard is heading that way. While there is room for debate, the indications are that he hasn't been as truthful to Lor'themar about the situation as previously thought.

However, while I think he will turn out to be guilty, I think there is more doubt over the scale of his guilt.

If he was a willing participant, that means he is very guilty of the crime he is accused of. More, it makes him an active party in Rhonins death; he was the one to persuade the Kirin Tor to send aid.

Did he know before hand and didn't say anything? Did he find out afterwards and realise he could have stopped it?

Another possibility - what if he is being coerced? Or covering for someone such as Rommath?

Benedictus has gone mad because of Deathwing you remember "I looked into the eye of dragon and despaired".

Not Deathwing...Onyxia is more likely.

EJL

[Combatbutler]

Why not? Aethas got reason to kill High Elves he had reason to get rid of Jaina if he is Garroshs agent. And he surely would use Dalaraan as Horde weapon. Why not Garrosh would tell
- I have grand task for you.
-What Task?
-Get Dalaraan for the Horde and you will be my champion.
-Hell no way.
-You will get chance to kill Jaina and High elf bitch
-OK.

I believe that he is a Traitor and has nothing to do with Benedictus. Benedictus has gone mad because of Deathwing you remember "I looked into the eye of dragon and despaired". Or another version is that he saw the visions that made him believe that this pass what he had been following is just a "This is a blessing we simply cannot comprehend." (like Murozond said). He saw something so horrible in his vision that made him believe his this pass he took was better way.
Aethas has nothing to do with Benedictus ! Aethas is simply a Traitor.

It goes against everything we have seen so far, he has no grudge against Jaina or the high elves, nothing indicates it prior to the purge. He can be a traitor, if they give decent reasoning, but if they fail to deliver that it is just bad storytelling. His motives should be plausible with already existing lore and your points simply were not.

[Spichora]

Aethas didn't want to kill high elves. In In the Shadow of the Sun, he wanted to bridge their gaps and get on with them, which he was starting to succeed at after Wrath, if Jaina's vision was anything to go by. Why would he throw all that away to, uh... kill high elves?

I don't doubt that he's a traitor at this point, but that's a pretty backwards and inconsistent reason for it.

I have made pretty clear theory on Page 3. What was his interests and how would he benefit from them.
Why Debate for weeks and months and be MEMBER of Council of Six, while he could have been leader of Dalaraan, when he had Garroshs support behind him. Why would he struggle to Bridge the gaps between those he didnt like ? Just simply get the power.


I'll post my Theory about Aethas once more :

If Aethas is to not innocent and he have plotted all this for the sake of Garrosh and "his people", then I suspect that Lor'themar knew about his actions. Lets follow facts shall we ?

First of all Thalen Songweaver betrayed Kirin Tor from within and he was representative from Sunreavers and close person to Aethas. First of all Aethas was one of the most active and first persons to offer council of six to interfere in War of Theremore and help Jaina Proudmoore. That was strange because there were lots of Blood Elves there why would he want to kill his brethren if he had not bigger plan. He was first of all Horde he would close eyes and just let Kirin Tor slaughter his people, just because he was part of Dalaraan and he should remain Neutral. I say he had Reason. To strengthen my argument I will add that it is very strange how Thalen volunteered to go in Theremore. He was sure that Kirin Tor would join the Fray. If he hadnt weakened defensive spells in Theremore casualties would be least in the city. I say Thalen knew that Aethas would do all the job in Council of Six and then it was his turn to weaken the forces of Teremore. Every member was surprised when Aethas was first person to tell Council to join the fray.

Then second treachery of Sunreavers was that someone opened Portal to Darnassus. If this guy was someone from Garroshs people how Lor'themar claims then how the stolen Bell appeared in Silvermoon city after stealing it? It was Aethas who ordered "that guy" to open Portal and Lor'themar was aware about it I guess. Or he later found about it and decided not to betray his Lieutenant and cover him. Because when we free Aethas from Dalaraan and some Sunreavers we see Bell in the city that means that Sunreavers took Bell in city after stealing it.

Aethas had reason to betray Dalaraan. If his plan was complete Success he would have killed Jaina, Rhonin and Vareesa. End the High elf problem in Dalaraan and their hate towards Blood elves, he would have killed ruler of Dalaraan and later they would have found that his heir Jaina was dead too so who would be new Leader of Dalaraan? Why not Aethas? He could have fought (politically) for the position and was one of the best candidates as others had their duties in other places or were old. He was perfect matching candidate for Dalaraan or ... He could use those tones of Sunreavers in the city. They could rebel in the city enslave Kirin Tor and use Dalaraan for Horde in Battle and take HUGE advantage.

---------- Post added 2013-05-12 at 10:45 PM ----------

It goes against everything we have seen so far, he has no grudge against Jaina or the high elves, nothing indicates it prior to the purge. He can be a traitor, if they give decent reasoning, but if they fail to deliver that it is just bad storytelling. His motives should be plausible with already existing lore and your points simply were not.

There is TONES of things indicates that Vareesa was doing everything to get Sunreavers out of Dalaraan and that there was a big disagreement between those two factions. And Jaina was just a mission that Garrosh demanded. Imagine he knew what would happen if bomb was total success. He knew that Rhonin and Vareesa would die and Jaina would be gift to Garrosh. Dalaraan would be without a Leader. Kirin Tor would say that Rhonins heir was Jaina but she was dead too.

We dont know where is Karlain and what is he doing now.
Khadar has his duties in Shattrath City
Modera is too old and doesnt have that much influence in Dalaraan, couldnt oppose Aethas.
Archmage Ansirem is somewhere in Alterac Mountains...

He was great candidate to become leader of Dalaraan. My theory is follows what would his thoughts/intentions be if he really is a traitor!

Just follow logically why would he betray dalaraan and its neutrality if not personal interest/power. He is not an idiot to just like that go against all this things he have been working for, only IF the price of treachery is much more significant compared to what he was striving to achieve with his neutrality. (hope I made myself clear. sorry for complicated sentence).

[Combatbutler]

There is TONES of things indicates that Vareesa was doing everything to get Sunreavers out of Dalaraan and that there was a big disagreement between those two factions. And Jaina was just a mission that Garrosh demanded. Imagine he knew what would happen if bomb was total success. He knew that Rhonin and Vareesa would die and Jaina would be gift to Garrosh. Dalaraan would be without a Leader. Kirin Tor would say that Rhonins heir was Jaina but she was dead too.

We dont know where is Karlain and what is he doing now.
Khadar has his duties in Shattrath City
Modera is too old and doesnt have that much influence in Dalaraan, couldnt oppose Aethas.
Archmage Ansirem is somewhere in Alterac Mountains...

He was great candidate to become leader of dalaraan.

Why should the remaining six be outside of Dalaran? They have no longer allegiances or duties outside of the city, not to mention who do you think runs Dalaran why Jaina is fighting on the Isle of Thunder?

Your scenario is implausible, since it is doomed to failure the Kirin Tor would have never accepted to become a pure horde faction, the sunreavers were a minority in the city and could not have taken control over the city by force, or political sway. You clearly underestimate the six and Modera in particular, there is a reason she survived that long and is the longest standing member of that council ,and you disregard Aethas entire characterization up until now once again.

[Spichora]

Why should the remaining six be outside of Dalaran? They have no longer allegiances or duties outside of the city, not to mention who do you think runs Dalaran why Jaina is fighting on the Isle of Thunder?

Your scenario is implausible, since it is doomed to failure the Kirin Tor would have never accepted to become a pure horde faction, the sunreavers were a minority in the city and could not have taken control over the city by force, or political sway. You clearly underestimate the six and Modera in particular, there is a reason she survived that long and is the longest standing member of that council ,and you disregard Aethas entire characterization up until now once again.

First of all I always thought Aethas was one son of a Bi*ch character. Always ! Council is running Togather the city its OK. But you know how Ambush starts if the rebellion is cleverly made Sunreavers would wipe out the Kirin Tor. That was not problem. Have you heard few facts in History that small group, well trained, have changed the direction of War?

Kirin Tor would be banished and enslaved. Of course they wouldnt accept to join Horde that so simple.

[Zulkhan]

Not Deathwing...Onyxia is more likely.
EJL

Onyxia ? And for which insane reason in the universe should be Onyxia instead of Deathwing? For the mess in vanilla? It's ridicolus.

Spichora, sorry but your theory is pointless. I don't know if he will turn out be a traitor, and a traitor for WHO, but one thing is sure, the base on which you're building this supposed "treason" is just a violent butchering of the character, supposing reasons that are completely out of character. Completely.

After the Purge clearly his feelings changed, but just in line with his brethren in Silvermoon, that were always distrustful of the Alliance and of the Kirin Tor.

But before this damn purge, Aethas simply didn't had any reason for hate the High Elves. Even if the Silver Covenant had grudge and despised the Blood Elves and so the Sunreavers, he was the kind of guy that grin and bear it, make the best of a bad situation, keep a stiff upper lip, suck it up; he just wanted the blood elves to have their right place in Dalaran and do it with the best relationship possible with the Kirin Tor, not become the big boss of Dalaran, he was more than happy and proud of his place in the Council. He wouldn't made ANYTHING so stupid that could damage the relationship he was so desperatily mending with the Kirin Tor.

As i said, i personally find the whole treasoning argument a bullshit, but, looking at it more objective...it is not impossible that could happens, but absolutely not with such motivations. It doesn't make sense. At all.
You're also make too much speculation on Thalen. What's strange that he volunteered himself for Theramore? He was a spy. Spies need to be on the field for do their, well, spies's work.