Why so much enthusiasm for F2P basis for MMOs?

[Edge-]

Kind of a sooner or later thing IMHO. As I mentioned, it all depends on the number of whales and amount of revenue the company is making.

Which games have started out with solid business models then turned into P2W though? I keep hearing this slippery slope argument against the model, but outside of some shitty games run by shitty publishers (Nexon publishes some good games, but they are kinda really shitty when it comes to their cash shop and how they treat their players), I can't think of any games where that actually...you know...happened.

[SodiumChloride]

Which games have started out with solid business models then turned into P2W though? I keep hearing this slippery slope argument against the model, but outside of some shitty games run by shitty publishers (Nexon publishes some good games, but they are kinda really shitty when it comes to their cash shop and how they treat their players), I can't think of any games where that actually...you know...happened.

Heh. I find it interesting you differentiate between "shitty" publishers and "non-shitty" publishers.

The reality of the F2P model is, that to stay in business, they have to incentivise the player to spend cash - shitty/non-shitty just depends on the finances of the publisher. At first it starts with vanity items, but when times get desperate - when the novelty of being a new game has worn off and the number of whales start to decline - it starts leaking into game play related items aka P2W. Even when it's just vanity items, it impacts the experience of the game as things are withheld to try to get you to pay.

In subscription models, the developers don't have to withhold anything - except in the form of gating content - and have to more or less try to give the best experience possible - so players will hang around; even when they have to wait for the content to open. This is why WoW venture into the cash shop is annoying some players - slippery slope there; but I think the accounting for the cash shop items is budget separately from the rest of the game.

So there you have it, F2P does have considerable disadvantages compared to sub when it comes to the game experience. In the end, someone will be paying, so for consumers it's a lost in general.

[Remilia]

Heh. I find it interesting you differentiate between "shitty" publishers and "non-shitty" publishers.

The reality of the F2P model is to incentivise the player to spend cash. At first it starts with vanity items, but when times get desperate - when the novelty of being a new game has worn off and the number of whales start to decline - it starts leaking into game play related items aka P2W. Even when it's just vanity items, it impacts the experience of the game as things are withheld to try to get you to pay.

In subscription models, the developers don't have to withhold anything - except in the form of gating content - and have to more or less try to give the best experience possible - so players will hang around; even when they have to wait for the content to open.

So there you have it, F2P does have considerable disadvantages compared to sub when it comes to the game experience. In the end, someone will be paying, so for consumers it's a lost in general.

You're still using the same slippery slope argument that you just used previously with nothing to back it up.

[Fencers]

Kind of a sooner or later thing IMHO

That may be your opinion but it is also ignorant of facts.

We can name games in which the cash shop has not interfered with gameplay as well as those in which the cash shop has effected gameplay.

[SodiumChloride]

You're still using the same slippery slope argument that you just used previously with nothing to back it up.

I don't understand what you mean by "slippery slope" here.

I'm just stating, the nature of the business model and it's characteristics, and how it affects the game experience.

[Remilia]

I don't understand what you mean by "slippery slope" here.

I'm just stating, the nature of the business model and it's characteristics, and how it affects the game experience.

A slippery slope is saying the A will happen and then B and C which are worse situation will happen because A happened.
It in itself is fallacious and in this case proves nothing but to generalize and paint everything of it's category in the same light you've given.

[SodiumChloride]

That may be your opinion but it is also ignorant of facts.

We can name games in which the cash shop has not interfered with gameplay as well as those in which the cash shop has effected gameplay.

I'm arguing that it always effects "gameplay". Even with just vanity purchases.

Want that nice hat? Spit out the cash vs. earn it in-game.

[Edge-]

Heh. I find it interesting you differentiate between "shitty" publishers and "non-shitty" publishers.

You mean kind of like how you have shitty developers and good developers?

You can't look at it in absolutes, that's a recipe for missing 99% of reality.

There are F2P developers/publishers that have good cash shops that don't punish free players or have P2W schemes. There are others that do.

There are some P2P developers/publishers that hardly treat their players with respect and charge obscene amounts of money for secondary purchases while delivering minimal value for their services. There are others that do deliver great value and do treat their customers with respect.

The business model a developer chooses doesn't dictate the entire design of the game. It affects the design, but it doesn't automatically make it a better or worse design.

If you want to continue rejecting reality and looking at your black and white world, the world that doesn't actually exist since you have yet to really show any concrete examples of it you know...existing, you're free to do so. But trying to push that inaccurate view onto others is kinda not good.

I'm arguing that it always effects "gameplay". Even with just vanity purchases.

Want that nice hat? Spit out the cash vs. earn it in-game.

Well then, I guess the two remaining large scale P2P games are affected, because both sell vanity items in the cash shop. Only FFXI remains the pure, subscription only MMO. THE INDUSTRY IS DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOMMMMMMMMMMMEEEEEEEDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD

I know what "slippery slope" is, but I'm not quite sure what you meant in this particular case.

The facts are stated follow logically from the way the business model works.

You have yet to show that said slippery slope actually happens, it's currently just a figment of your imagination.

[SodiumChloride]

A slippery slope is saying the A will happen and then B and C which are worse situation will happen because A happened.
It in itself is fallacious and in this case proves nothing but to generalize and paint everything of it's category in the same light you've given.

I know what "slippery slope" is, but I'm not quite sure what you meant in this particular case.

The facts I stated follow logically from the way the business model works.

---------- Post added 2013-05-15 at 06:42 PM ----------

You mean kind of like how you have shitty developers and good developers?

You can't look at it in absolutes, that's a recipe for missing 99% of reality.

There are F2P developers/publishers that have good cash shops that don't punish free players or have P2W schemes. There are others that do.

There are some P2P developers/publishers that hardly treat their players with respect and charge obscene amounts of money for secondary purchases while delivering minimal value for their services. There are others that do deliver great value and do treat their customers with respect.

The business model a developer chooses doesn't dictate the entire design of the game. It affects the design, but it doesn't automatically make it a better or worse design.

If you want to continue rejecting reality and looking at your black and white world, the world that doesn't actually exist since you have yet to really show any concrete examples of it you know...existing, you're free to do so. But trying to push that inaccurate view onto others is kinda not good.

I never say it was "bad", however it's hard to argue that it's as good as sub - duh, sub is $15 a month.

I'm just stating that the business model invariably effects the game in negative ways.

[Fencers]

I'm arguing that it always effects "gameplay". Even with just vanity purchases.

Want that nice hat? Spit out the cash vs. earn it in-game.

And I am telling you that argument is ignoring facts that demonstrate otherwise.

[SodiumChloride]

Well then, I guess the two remaining large scale P2P games are affected, because both sell vanity items in the cash shop. Only FFXI remains the pure, subscription only MMO. THE INDUSTRY IS DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOMMMMMMMMMMMEEEEEEEDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD

And there are many players that are not happy about it!

You have yet to show that said slippery slope actually happens, it's currently just a figment of your imagination.

What "slippery slope" are you accusing me of invoking?!

[Remilia]

I know what "slippery slope" is, but I'm not quite sure what you meant in this particular case.

The facts I stated follow logically from the way the business model works.

We require proof in a massive scale to remotely validate this. Which is why it's a slippery slope.

[glowpipe]

They will get over it fast enough. games made for f2p sucks. low producion value. Greedy creators taking out shit that was basic in 2001 to earn more cash.

Games that was p2p and now f2p. Well. they suck aswell. Or they wouldn't be f2p. I rest my case

[SodiumChloride]

And I am telling you that argument is ignoring facts that demonstrate otherwise.

So paying cash for an in-game item vs earning it via in-game mechanics isn't a "difference" in game experience?

---------- Post added 2013-05-15 at 06:46 PM ----------

We require proof in a massive scale to remotely validate this. Which is why it's a slippery slope.

What "slippery slope" are you accusing me of invoking?!

10 chars plus

[Valeron]

Games that was p2p and now f2p. Well. they suck aswell. Or they wouldn't be f2p. I rest my case

So every game besides WoW and EVE Online suck eh?

[glowpipe]

So every game besides WoW and EVE Online suck eh?

Nah, they suck aswell. They just havent realized it yet.

But honestly tho. Only game ive tried the last 4 years that is f2p that is remotely good, Is neverwinter online. And its not that good

[Valeron]

So if every game sucks...why do you play video games?

[Fencers]

So paying cash for an in-game item vs earning it via in-game mechanics isn't a "difference" in game experience?

Game experience [nebulous concept] and gameplay [definite concept] are two different things.

One doesn't imply the other:

It can be that a cash shop item does effect gameplay and game experience. E.g. Nevewinter

It can also be that a cash shop does not effect gameplay or game experience. E.g. World of Warcraft

Works both ways. With the former being the rarer of the two outcomes regardless of business model.

[Remilia]

10 chars plus

This part that you keep mentioning.

The reality of the F2P model is to incentivise the player to spend cash. At first it starts with vanity items, but when times get desperate - when the novelty of being a new game has worn off and the number of whales start to decline - it starts leaking into game play related items aka P2W. Even when it's just vanity items, it impacts the experience of the game as things are withheld to try to get you to pay.

[SodiumChloride]

Game experience [nebulous concept] and gameplay [definite concept] are two different things.

One doesn't imply the other:

It can be that a cash shop item does effect gameplay and game experience. E.g. Nevewinter

It can also be that a cash shop does not effect gameplay or game experience. E.g. World of Warcraft

Works both ways. With the former being the rarer of the two outcomes regardless of business model.

I see gameplay as part of the game experience. Game experience is what ultimately matters.

I'm not happy with WoW's cash shop. 5.3 there will be a new tree guardian pet ... cash shop. Now this wouldn't be so bad if earned in-game pets were on avg of the same quality and the cash shop was just something "on the side". But there are a significant number of earned in-game pets that are just lazy scale down of existing mob models.

I'm worried. It's more or less P2W in the "coolness" aspect of the game. So far it's limited to pets and mounts - vanity gear is still stuck behind in-game things like Challenge mode dungeons - but ...

This part that you keep mentioning.

Thank you.

In hindsight I suppose I might have been a bit "heavy handed". That said, the precedence hasn't been encouraging. Maplestory has been one of the most successful F2P MMOs, to my knowledge, even they have started resorting to P2W. P2W being the easiest way to get the player base to pay up.