5.3 will see fury warriors going bottom of the meter?

[Deleted]

Execute on 5.3 ptr is hitting for less than TV, obliterate, ferocious bite and even shreds and backstabs in PvP. What the actual fuck?

I havent seen any execute changes in patch notes, care to link ?

[tru]

Assa Rogues seem to be way ahead of everyone else (considering they perform pretty well on every fight) though I'd sure as fuck rather have every other DPS getting buffed instead of them being nerfed. I do have a Fury Warr in my regular raid comp and he seems to do fine, so I'll still definitely bring him for 5.3, for even if he falls a tad behind he still brings Skull Banner, Demo Banner and Rallying Cry :P.

To Rivyr's point: What I won't (probably) be bringing to progression is Ret Paladins, since they seem to be rather inferior, and being a Protadin I don't really need a token Ret just for BoP.

assas rogues are also pretty bad in pvp. TG fury warriors are walking a fine line with their burst/damage potential

Its just like arms is good in pvp but lacking in pve if they buffed arms warrior damage to match say assassination rogues in pve they would be the most powerful class/spec in the game.

there has to be a balance somewhere ( even though blizzard does a shitty job of it and should PHASE abilities ) its always going to be like that.
Sadly to say ret is going to be one of those specs ( like arms ) where they will never be able to balance it around both roles in pve/pvp.
I do feel Ret suffers unfairly though because it is the only dps spec a paladin has.
If a sub rogue wants to do good damage in a raid well to bad you have specs that exceed well at everything... ret does not have that and they probably never will.

Ive said it many times blizzard really needs to phase abilities

im not sure the exact numbers since i stopped playing the game but for instance

raging blow hits for 350% weapon damage from both weapons PVE
raging blow hits for 275% weapon damage from both weapons PVP

take that instance and run with it for all abilities. think about how easy it would be to tweak " o furry is sitting about middle of the pack lets buff RB by 30% weapon damge in pve" done they get a pve buff without effecting pvp AT ALL.

the company yall continue to support is lazy and lacks insight and real direction

they phased colossal smash or w/e its called 100% arp on a pve mob and what 50% in pvp? they recently did this for a rogue ability... this would FIX so much of their shit.

[Deleted]

snip

I agree and have been advocating seperate abilities for expansions now.
Sadly i doubt it'll happen as it would mean twice the job for blizzard for not enough reward.

[Darkfriend]

assas rogues are also pretty bad in pvp. TG fury warriors are walking a fine line with their burst/damage potential

Its just like arms is good in pvp but lacking in pve if they buffed arms warrior damage to match say assassination rogues in pve they would be the most powerful class/spec in the game.

there has to be a balance somewhere ( even though blizzard does a shitty job of it and should PHASE abilities ) its always going to be like that.
Sadly to say ret is going to be one of those specs ( like arms ) where they will never be able to balance it around both roles in pve/pvp.
I do feel Ret suffers unfairly though because it is the only dps spec a paladin has.
If a sub rogue wants to do good damage in a raid well to bad you have specs that exceed well at everything... ret does not have that and they probably never will.

Ive said it many times blizzard really needs to phase abilities

im not sure the exact numbers since i stopped playing the game but for instance

raging blow hits for 350% weapon damage from both weapons PVE
raging blow hits for 275% weapon damage from both weapons PVP

take that instance and run with it for all abilities. think about how easy it would be to tweak " o furry is sitting about middle of the pack lets buff RB by 30% weapon damge in pve" done they get a pve buff without effecting pvp AT ALL.

the company yall continue to support is lazy and lacks insight and real direction

they phased colossal smash or w/e its called 100% arp on a pve mob and what 50% in pvp? they recently did this for a rogue ability... this would FIX so much of their shit.

I know. Blizzard are deluded. They continually nerf PVE abilities because of PVP impacts. Fucking fuck off and fucking phase.

[senturion]

The problem with us warriors is that we don't whine collectively. Some of us are trying our best to qq but now and then some egoistical dude just comes along and derails our whine threads. How the heck are we ever gonna get GC to buff us like that? I really suspect that some of the warriors here are rogues in disguise...

Look at the monk threads. Look at the ret threads. We need to unite up and knock some sense into blizzard.

If you think we are fine .. Don't post. A buff doesn't hurt.

[Brakthir]

The problem with us warriors is that we don't whine collectively. Some of us are trying our best to qq but now and then some egoistical dude just comes along and derails our whine threads. How the heck are we ever gonna get GC to buff us like that? I really suspect that some of the warriors here are rogues in disguise...

Look at the monk threads. Look at the ret threads. We need to unite up and knock some sense into blizzard.

If you think we are fine .. Don't post. A buff doesn't hurt.

A buff does hurt if it means we get nerfed hard later down the line.

[cFortyfive]

Execute on 5.3 ptr is hitting for less than TV, obliterate, ferocious bite and even shreds and backstabs in PvP. What the actual fuck?

Have no ptr client currently - did they actually nerf it even further ? It seems somewhat bad as is already for tg fury.

[Juni]

See method's post on warrior usefulness and I think it is better time spent leveling up a warlock whilst waiting for your turn to sub in

I would like a link to this so I can read it myself, please.

---------- Post added 2013-05-18 at 02:16 AM ----------

It's probably that interview here http://manaflask.com/en/articles/the...tory-interview that is being referred to. Towards the end of the first page.

thank u, good sir!

[sjsctt]

http://manaflask.com/en/articles/the...tory-interview

What was the class balance like in this tier? Any OP classes or less than useful ones?

Rogerbrown: I think this tier warlocks were probably the best class overall. Great survivability, multiple specs being viable for different bosses, warlock portals bringing some insane utility for Lei Shen, and of course TOPPING DA METERS! Overall this tier I think dps warriors, ww monks, hunters and spriests got the short end of the stick.

Imsupersdw: Something like: Do you need a melee? bring a rogue. Do you need more melees? bring more rogues. Oh, you dont have more rogues? bring a DK, still need more melees? better go with ranged. Do you need a ranged? bring a warlock. Still need more ranged? bring more warlocks. Still need more ranged? bring in some fire mages

Sonie: In terms of healing, Holy Paladins are definitely in a really good spot. Personally I think the whole "passive absorbs" mechanic is pretty broken and should be removed in the next expansion. With passive absorbs I mean the Paladin Mastery (Illuminated Healing) and Disc Priests Divine Aegis. The only absorb from healers that should be kept in the game is Power Word: Shield. When progressing through new content many of the abilities do more or less the same amount of damage as your max HP because you are using way less iLvL than blizzard tuned the encounters for. A good example for this is Dark Animus, during the first 1-2 days progressing on this encounter Interrupting Jolt did more damage than what many of the raid members had in hp (it was hotfixed after about 2 days). Absorbs and raid cooldowns become very crucial here and that is why Holy Paladins shine so much.

Sparkuggz: Warlocks, Mages and Boomkins were the strong ranged classes with rogues being more or less the only viable melee you wanted to bring. Hunters and DPS monks were pretty much the class you didn't want to bring because they really didn't put anything on the table. The only reason you ever took a DPS warrior was because of skullbaner.

Treckie: Melee as always are not prefered on most fights, although most ranged (or at least spellcasters) need trinkets to be OP, dps warriors prolly took the biggest hit in our guild at least, barely being used and when they did get a spot then only one, even though we had 3. Warlocks came out really strong this tier though, with insane survivability and being among the best in terms of damage as well (not some s**tty tradeoff like having survivability but doing 50% damage).

---------- Post added 2013-05-18 at 03:26 PM ----------

Exorsus said pretty much the same thing:
http://manaflask.com/en/articles/the...nnacle-exorsus

What was the class balance like in this tier? Any OP classes or less than useful ones?

Alveona: Overall class balance was quite bad.
Tanks: Monks and paladins > others;
Melee DD (well, if you need them at all ): Rogues and DK >> other choices;
Ranged DD: Warlocks and mages >> others;
Healers: Paladins > others

Revenant: WARLOCKS ARE FINE!

Seu: Warlocks: 15/10.
Mages: 9/10
Rogues, DK: 8/10
Boomkins, Shadow priests: 7/10
Hunters, Ret Paladins, Shamans, Warriors: 6/10
DD Monks: 3/10
We do not have any cats in the roster, but I can suggest they would be on a par with hunters, paladins, shammys and warriors.

Shadow: Warlocks are too strong now. They have good single target damage, good 2-3 target damage, best aoe. I understand situations where aclass is strong on the one hand and weak on the other. But what if the final boss requires 4 warlocks, they do more damage and survive better on all other fights? Once again many fights were designed with a limited amount of melee, so for this tier it’s not the best choice to be one of them.

[Kalmah]

The problem with us warriors is that we don't whine collectively. Some of us are trying our best to qq but now and then some egoistical dude just comes along and derails our whine threads. How the heck are we ever gonna get GC to buff us like that? I really suspect that some of the warriors here are rogues in disguise...

Look at the monk threads. Look at the ret threads. We need to unite up and knock some sense into blizzard.

If you think we are fine .. Don't post. A buff doesn't hurt.

I'll add my opinion that warriors are mostly fine.

If you get sat on progression raiding as a warrior in a non top 50 guild, it's not because warriors are bad, it's because you're not as good as you think you are, or because the people deciding who gets a spot don't really like you.

We do okay damage, have okay utility. Our main issue is that melee isn't really desirable and rogues are a bit overtuned. Every other melee spec is either in the same boat as warriors or worse off.

I do not believe warriors need to be buffed. I believe rogues and warlocks, and to a lesser extent fire mages, need to have their damage tuned down 5-10%.

[mstg]

The patch will be out next week and still no buffs, we're screwed. Either there's a lack of whining from us or Bliz never actually cared about our DPS.

[cFortyfive]

The patch will be out next week and still no buffs, we're screwed.

Till the next content is enough time to get more comfy with your role as banner bot.

[Darkfriend]

The patch will be out next week and still no buffs, we're screwed. Either there's a lack of whining from us or Bliz never actually cared about our DPS.

If you're good enough to require a buff to stay competitive, it won't matter the tier is over for you already. Does it suck that my less geared DK beats my warrior on a lot of fights? Yes. But that doesn't mean warriors are so bad they are unplayable.

Buff execute back up, buff BT and CS by 10%. Re add the damage to glyph of HL. Make spell reflect/mass spell reflect actually reflect incoming spell damage.

[Warriorsarri]

I'll agree with you all that if you look at Worldoflogs, Warriors doesn't look to be all that good, but if you stop looking at the top Parsing people (Top parsing on any given fight this tier means you pad your brains out (Staying on Horridon, Solo AoE the walls Durumu / Adds Lei Shen / adds Primordius etc.) and instead look at what the top guilds brought for their first kills, you'll see something different.

Gonna look at some top guilds and see what bosses they didn't bring at least 1 warrior for their first kill.

25man
Method: Jin'rokh, Primordius, Iron Qon, Ra-Den.
Blood Legion: Had atleast one warrior for every kill.
Exorsus: Magaera, Ra-Den.
Midwinter: Horridon, Tortos, Ji-Kun.

10man
DREAM Paragon: Had one warrior for each kill.
Sanitas: Don't have a DPS warrior in their team.
Hordlinge: No information available.
Moonz: Horidon, Tortos.

As you can see, every guild in the top4 (25man) used atleast one warrior for the majority of fights. In 10man at least two of them did.

A Good warrior can bring a lot to the table, and the top guilds are aware of this. We have the best AoE Burst in the game (Not counting tanks with high Vengeance), Our damage during execute is phenomenal and our raid CDs are among the best.

If you look at the two hardest fights this tier, Dark Animus and Lei Shen, and also look at Ra-Den, as he is quite a special boss, you can really see where we shine.

Dark Animus: By starting in Defensive stance we don't have any issues keeping threat on our Golem, meaning we can go on the boss right away, and therefor gain quite a lot of boss damage compared to other some other classes.

We also have two quite strong raid Cds for the interrupting Jolts, Rallying Cry is godlike for them. If we have any issues surviving we can just go into Defensive stance for three seconds and we'll be fine.

Lei Shen:
In phase one our mobility means that we can stay on the boss full time, even when he is dragged between the Pylons.

Transition one, once again our mobility means that we can survive the Helm of Command without a Warlock Portal. The combination of DbtS, SW and Defensive stance means we only take around 1mil damage from Static Shock, meaning we only need two people to help us soak.

Phase two brings the Ball Lightning. They spawn every 45 seconds, meaning we have our Bladestorm for every seconds wave. If you're TG you'll end up topping the damage on Ball Lightning (of the dps, Monks are just... Yea).

Transition Two. Nothing fancy, we will have help soaking each Static Shock.

Phase Three. This is where it gets fun. once again we got the Bouncing Balls, but we will also hit Execute Phase. The combination of the high damage taken and Execute brings some fun big numbers on the screen.

Beside the fact that we can top the meters in last phase, our Cds is also note worthy. You need at least one strong CD for each Thunderstruck, and we bring two of them.

Ra-Den: For progress, you'll bring whichever class will do the most damage and has the best survivability. In the Second phase, we can dish out some really nice numbers, due to Berserker Stance, and we can survive quite well with Second wind and some good CD management.

But you'll most likely be sat on this fight. If your guild can bring a range, or someone who can offheal, they will be better overall. Any Range trumps us for progress, due to the balls that need to die. And for the few meleespots there are, there are some other classes that bring more.

A DK is kinda needed, to tank the Add. Rogues can't die. An Enhancement shaman heals basically as much as a main healer during phase two.



Why did I write this? I just wanted to point at a few of our Strengths, and I also added the Ra-Den part to point at a few off our weak sides.

Are there things that others have that we don't? Yes.
Shield Wall is questionable, but they are buffing it by reducing it's Cd, so we can use it more then once per fight. They are also buffing Defensive Stance to give 25% reduction again, so another buff to our survivability.

We are in the middle when it comes to a Patchwerk type of fight, but with 5.3 we once again get the ability to upgrade our gear. Even tho we don't get a buff, like some other melee classes, we get an indirect buff with it upgrading system. Fury warriors are among the best, if not the best scaling spec in the game, so 8 more itemlevels worth of stats is quite a big buff for us.

Overall this tier, I'd rate us at a 8/10.

The reason we see threads like this is simply due to the fact that Unholy Dks and Assassination rogues are stronger then they've ever been.



If you have any questions or you have something to say regarding with what I've just written up, just say so, I'm more then happy to say what I think regarding the subject.

[cFortyfive]

Fury warriors are among the best, if not the best scaling spec in the game, so 8 more itemlevels worth of stats is quite a big buff for us.

I can't agree with that as I don't see any evidence for it. There are enough specs that match warrior scaling or can make better use of current item design. Specifically one of those mentioned as inherently very strong - the rogue. Adding rppm and our relationship with haste doesn't help either.

[Deleted]

We are in the middle when it comes to a Patchwerk type of fight, but with 5.3 we once again get the ability to upgrade our gear. Even tho we don't get a buff, like some other melee classes, we get an indirect buff with it upgrading system. Fury warriors are among the best, if not the best scaling spec in the game, so 8 more itemlevels worth of stats is quite a big buff for us.

Overall this tier, I'd rate us at a 8/10.

The reason we see threads like this is simply due to the fact that Unholy Dks and Assassination rogues are stronger then they've ever been.



If you have any questions or you have something to say regarding with what I've just written up, just say so, I'm more then happy to say what I think regarding the subject.

People have got to stop parroting this myth so much. We are further behind all the strong classes now than we were at the start of this patch because we scale worse than them, especially rogues scale significantly better than warriors and rogues are already taking "our" spots due to doing superior damage and having superior personal CDs.

It also should be said that unsurprisingly the people who sim the highest in a patchwerk type fight also tend to do the most damage in pretty much every encounter, the big outlier being shadowpriests who when they have to move suffer really heavily.

[Warriorsarri]

People have got to stop parroting this myth so much. We are further behind all the strong classes now than we were at the start of this patch because we scale worse than them, especially rogues scale significantly better than warriors and rogues are already taking "our" spots due to doing superior damage and having superior personal CDs.

Rogues do good this tier, yes, but there are few fights where a well geared, and well played warrior can't compete for the top spot.

I'll link my guilds logs from this weak if you want to look for yourself. (Asendance World Rank 17)

http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-qngmj0macr1saopm/ http://worldoflogs.com/reports/hey0xwlkkplcdymi/ http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-m6uaf4w8m47k00yr/ Those are the full logs from this week.

Jin'rokh: http://worldoflogs.com/reports/hey0x...e/?s=574&e=808
Horridon: http://worldoflogs.com/reports/hey0x...?s=1595&e=2184
Council: http://worldoflogs.com/reports/hey0x...?s=2724&e=3167
Tortos: http://worldoflogs.com/reports/hey0x...?s=3641&e=4043
Magaera: http://worldoflogs.com/reports/hey0x...?s=4735&e=5179
Dark Animus: http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-qn...=13126&e=13482
Twins: http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-qn...=16047&e=16604
Lei Shen: http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-m6...?s=3377&e=4035

(The fights I didn't link our logger wasn't in on).

Now point me to any fight where a Good warrior can't hold his ground.

[galvin]

Rogues do good this tier, yes, but there are few fights where a well geared, and well played warrior can't compete for the top spot.

I'll link my guilds logs from this weak if you want to look for yourself. (Asendance World Rank 17)

http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-qngmj0macr1saopm/ http://worldoflogs.com/reports/hey0xwlkkplcdymi/ http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-m6uaf4w8m47k00yr/ Those are the full logs from this week.

Jin'rokh: http://worldoflogs.com/reports/hey0x...e/?s=574&e=808
Horridon: http://worldoflogs.com/reports/hey0x...?s=1595&e=2184
Council: http://worldoflogs.com/reports/hey0x...?s=2724&e=3167
Tortos: http://worldoflogs.com/reports/hey0x...?s=3641&e=4043
Magaera: http://worldoflogs.com/reports/hey0x...?s=4735&e=5179
Dark Animus: http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-qn...=13126&e=13482
Twins: http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-qn...=16047&e=16604
Lei Shen: http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-m6...?s=3377&e=4035

(The fights I didn't link our logger wasn't in on).

Now point me to any fight where a Good warrior can't hold his ground.

We use kite strat on tortos so we dont get to aoe bats, so I reckstorm turtles instead, but it won't produce as much dps as doing bats.
Council looks like you got to aoe sand adds, we don't get sand adds, so dps seems to suck that fight. Since we dont have sandadds I dont take bladestorm for that one.
Magaera I dont get to bladestorm adds, so I dont take bladestorm to that fight. So i'll never pull those kind of numbers.

But anyfight that doesn't involve aoe, dk, rogues are always way ahead. Especially when progression and you see warriors near bottom of meters after 3 attempts, you swap them out with classes that can do higher. I've sat out for more progression this tier than last. We do good on twins, but the logs I looked at on our attempts, we are way behind other classes on single target but way ahead on lurkers.

Heroic iron qon would say is the worst our damage is really low on that one, unless you get some luck on rng and able to keep dps higher.

I'm really tired of you guys saying we're fine. I was fine in t14 was able to be competitive with my guild mates, that is no longer true this tier.

[cFortyfive]

I'll link my guilds logs from this weak if you want to look for yourself. (Asendance World Rank 17)

Personally I'd still be a lot more interested in a little more explanation on the scaling subject.

We do good on twins

Ah well reckbannerbrostorm to the rescue ,D

[Bloodletters]

Personally I'd still be a lot more interested in a little more explanation on the scaling subject.

Ah well reckbannerbrostorm to the rescue ,D

Well, I know that Colision said awhile back, around the time 5.2 released that when he was working with simcraft he bumped up the item levels to about 600 of all the specs and he said Fire and Fury were about 50k ahead of everyone else.

Warrior scaling is very good. I'm not so sure that Rogues beat it. Maybe Subtlety but no one plays that right now anyway. I don't think that any other melee spec scales as well as we do, Affliction and Fire are close.

Warriors didn't scale particularly well Cataclysm, but we do scale really well this expansion because of the value of Crit and Mastery at higher Crit levels.

That said, OP trinkets, and different raid mechanics are putting some classes well ahead of us.