How much haste is to much haste

[Micke]

You're making the judgement that ember generation is more important than mastery's increase to direct damage done.

That is fair enough of a reasoning if the spells relative ember generation pales to its other means in a fight, though it does also mean that if it is that insignificant it is usually a mastery stacking fight anyway for CB/SB/FnB reasons alone, and if generally speaking without such a case, mastery would be blatantly OP stat if it directly competed with crit or haste on ember generators

Afterall, you do not choose your main stat by 1 spell alone

I could also go into a whole discussion on stat synergies but I decided to simply keep the discussion focused on the gear available to us right now where it doesn't yet get too crazy

[Baconeggcheese]

I personally stack haste over everything while trying to maintain somewhere between 5-7k mastery. For destro the actual numbers of haste aren't as important as just having a bunch as its amazing for consistent ember generation as well as being able to fit more spells into procs.

I'm making it a goal to get rid of as much of my crit rating as humanly possible because its terribly inconsistent for ember generation and is substantially weaker than mastery at increasing chaosbolt damage. Mastery also increases ALL ember burning abilities damage instead of just chaosbolt like crit does.

One thing that people fail to mention is that haste increases ember generation as well as ***the rate at which you can spend it***. Most fights are not patchwerk which means in a lot of cases you can generate embers faster than you can spend them, haste helps to mitigate that. On that same token this again dwarfs the effectiveness of crit for ember generation and makes mastery more important for actually increasing damage done per cast since you're already generating embers faster than you can spend them. You also have to consider how many spells you can fit into a single trinket proc which matters a TON this tier since we're talking 7000+ int per proc.

The two most important things to think about is how to maximize ember generation (haste) and how to increase ember abilities damage (mastery), this also means incinerate is extremely low on the totem pole of things you need to superduper worry about as outside of pure single target fights it ends up being very very little of your damage and doesn't generate embers at nearly the rate rain of fire does.

Imo the biggest mistake a lot of novice destro warlocks make is over-prioritizing incinerate and under-prioritizing rain of fire and then ember burning abilities when worrying about gearing and their rotation.

[xskarma]

^^ First decent reply that wasn't full of fuckery whole post

I suggest you post more respectfully next time. It's fine to disagree, but it's impolite to ask a question and then call the good answers you get "full of fuckery". If you have something specific in mind, you should better construct your question, not disparage the people who try to help you.

[Deleted]

With all things that use RPPM (aka all good trinkets plus legendary meta) scaling off haste, aint no such thing as too much haste.

[Ailerist]

I suggest you post more respectfully next time. It's fine to disagree, but it's impolite to ask a question and then call the good answers you get "full of fuckery". If you have something specific in mind, you should better construct your question, not disparage the people who try to help you.

Good answers? Let's post the most vague and cryptic garbage and call that a good answer then. Much respect to Brusalk for his knowledge but seriously reading to deep on what is a fairly broad question. Should we go into the dynamics of the question etc to best explore what I was in general speaking? Nope

[Deleted]

Best advice you can be given is to ask in trade if you arent interested in wanting to know why the stats are good for different reasons, and im completely unsure how 'when you cant react to it comfortably' is vague because that is the bottom line.

[Deleted]

Recent simc's for gosup destro have haste crit mastery listed for best itemization's for single target. My question is, for single target, what is the sweet spot I wanna hit for haste?

Haven't played destro ever but I do play affliction so assuming our break points are possibly around the same mark, 4198, 5717, 6740, 7998, 8762, 9778, 10100, then big jump up to 13975 assuming you spend the time in between the 10k and 13k ones to up your crit/mastery respectively depending on your requirement/need for either stat.

Running simcraft can help with reforgelite addon. Evrelia has a nice guide on youtube for how to use simcraft as a warlock if you need it It helped me a ton!

[Brusalk]

Good answers? Let's post the most vague and cryptic garbage and call that a good answer then. Much respect to Brusalk for his knowledge but seriously reading to deep on what is a fairly broad question. Should we go into the dynamics of the question etc to best explore what I was in general speaking? Nope

Let me recap something real fast:

Original Question:

For single target, what is the sweet spot I wanna hit for haste?

Taking that question at face value, I answered that there is no sweet spot because Haste remains best at all rating levels.


How is that not a valid answer? If all you are wanting is someone to pat you on the back for some theorycrafting you supposedly did, then you've A) Come to the wrong place, and B) have a massive misunderstanding of how asking questions works.

[evertonbelmontt]

We should get a right to Vote to Kick this kind of members from the WL forum.
Who's with me? /heh

@Topic

Don't bother trying to find a limit to suport your theory. You will not get it under normal circunstances (no hero, etc).
Also, keep in mind that it all depends on the encounter you'll be on. Rain of fire with lots of haste is much better for Horridon, hence you can enjoy chaos bolts (especially with 5.3 coming. That legend cloack...) much harder.

Edit: just to clarify, horridon last phase.

I'd say that, if the "sweet spot" really do exist, it's not a constant.

[Herrenos]

Good answers? Let's post the most vague and cryptic garbage and call that a good answer then. Much respect to Brusalk for his knowledge but seriously reading to deep on what is a fairly broad question. Should we go into the dynamics of the question etc to best explore what I was in general speaking? Nope

Are you seriously asking "WAT IS BEST PET FOR DPS"?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WhvvNGeHHME

If you don't want to deal with dynamically interacting stat weights that vary by fight, but instead want someone to just tell you how to reforge so you don't have to do the work yourself, roll a fire mage or something.

[Deleted]

I'd say that, if the "sweet spot" really do exist, it's not a constant.

wow that sounded almost philosofical^^

its funny tho, as this question has been asked and answered so many times that a bit of "googling" would have been suffice to get an answer. its been stated over and over again that there is no "sweetspot" for haste for destro, there are only encounters where it may be suboptimal to stack haste.

[Ailerist]

So between 9789 haste and 10443 haste, other stats such as mastery and crit become = haste. Not showing any increased amount of trink procs either till past 12k.

---------- Post added 2013-05-17 at 02:36 PM ----------

Haven't played destro ever but I do play affliction so assuming our break points are possibly around the same mark, 4198, 5717, 6740, 7998, 8762, 9778, 10100, then big jump up to 13975 assuming you spend the time in between the 10k and 13k ones to up your crit/mastery respectively depending on your requirement/need for either stat.

Running simcraft can help with reforgelite addon. Evrelia has a nice guide on youtube for how to use simcraft as a warlock if you need it It helped me a ton!

Funny how he got the question but you couldn't

[EvreliaGaming]

So between 9789 haste and 10443 haste, other stats such as mastery and crit become = haste. Not showing any increased amount of trink procs either till past 12k.

---------- Post added 2013-05-17 at 02:36 PM ----------



Funny how he got the question but you couldn't

Funny how you STILL don't get it. Haste breakpoints are not relevant for Destruction - at all. Forget about them.

[Deleted]

So between 9789 haste and 10443 haste, other stats such as mastery and crit become = haste. Not showing any increased amount of trink procs either till past 12k.

---------- Post added 2013-05-17 at 02:36 PM ----------



Funny how he got the question but you couldn't

I said upfront I haven't ever played destro and that I was *Assuming* it to be same as aff purely from a warlock point of view, merely trying to be helpful was all. Really was no need to quote me and say I didn't get the question after I'd clearly already stated I have no actual knowledge on destruction. But hey, whatever floats your boat in the morning. I thought threads were so we can help each other, not make smart comments and digs.

[Regen]

I said upfront I haven't ever played destro and that I was *Assuming* it to be same as aff purely from a warlock point of view, merely trying to be helpful was all. Really was no need to quote me and say I didn't get the question after I'd clearly already stated I have no actual knowledge on destruction. But hey, whatever floats your boat in the morning. I thought threads were so we can help each other, not make smart comments and digs.

Eh, don't fret. This is likely to get locked soon. He's been told by a moderator to calm it down, and has been told by a good...5-7 people that there are no breakpoints, and no point at which haste ceases to be the best stat to stack, yet he refuses to believe it, or show ANY support OR math behind the things he's saying (which is what it will take for him to garner support, or more importantly swing Brusalk into saying "I'm wrong, you're right").

[Drikkink]

Interesting to support his post when he admits (twice?) to not being able to handle 1/5th of the rotation (counting ember-consuming spells as 1) and that's an important 1/5th of the rotation.

You do realize that rain of fire, in pure single target, is like barely worthwhile DPS gain. Although, by logic, wouldn't RoF have GREATER effect for mastery stackers than haste stackers? For haste stackers your ember generation is high as is and your ember consumers hit for much less. For mastery, your ember generation is less but they do more. It benefits both, but wouldn't it seem to benefit mastery a little more? I'm sure someone who theorycrafts more than me is going to correct me if I'm wrong.

Anyway, haste isn't a "Where can I get to to optimize DPS stat". You get haste until you no longer feel comfortable with haste. All stats are perfectly fine for destro and probably would barely account for a swing of 5k from one extreme to the other.

[Aùssa02]

Man, you guys are being real mean to this man who obviously isn't of the greatest knowledge of how all the kinks of calculating dps works.

He asked for a number and you did honestly not give him a number - No matter what you say, there is always a number to look for because of the nature of haste.

Human reaction time and GCD. Tbh, I'd say whatever haste is required to put Incinerate down to GCD is your sweet spot - What that is.. I dunno, but probably someone here knows that

[Regen]

You do realize that rain of fire, in pure single target, is like barely worthwhile DPS gain. Although, by logic, wouldn't RoF have GREATER effect for mastery stackers than haste stackers? For haste stackers your ember generation is high as is and your ember consumers hit for much less. For mastery, your ember generation is less but they do more. It benefits both, but wouldn't it seem to benefit mastery a little more? I'm sure someone who theorycrafts more than me is going to correct me if I'm wrong.

Anyway, haste isn't a "Where can I get to to optimize DPS stat". You get haste until you no longer feel comfortable with haste. All stats are perfectly fine for destro and probably would barely account for a swing of 5k from one extreme to the other.

It's not necessarily a haste vs mastery stackers argument. It's a when does haste become less valuable argument but for what you're saying yes and no. Any amount of ember-bit generation is valuable even to someone firing off a lot of incinerates. 6-8+ ember bits every 6 seconds is great, and shouldn't be called a "barely a dps increase" every 2 rain of fires gives you at least 1.5 chaos bolts.

Man, you guys are being real mean to this man who obviously isn't of the greatest knowledge of how all the kinks of calculating dps works.

He asked for a number and you did honestly not give him a number - No matter what you say, there is always a number to look for because of the nature of haste.

Human reaction time and GCD. Tbh, I'd say whatever haste is required to put Incinerate down to GCD is your sweet spot - What that is.. I dunno, but probably someone here knows that

That's been brought up and denied in the thread. It should be real hard to to get chaos bolt to 1 second, which is when it really becomes useless imo.

Also, he started with the hostility and anger, when given an answer to the question he originally posted.

[Aùssa02]

It's not necessarily a haste vs mastery stackers argument. It's a when does haste become less valuable argument but for what you're saying yes and no. Any amount of ember-bit generation is valuable even to someone firing off a lot of incinerates. 6-8+ ember bits every 6 seconds is great, and shouldn't be called a "barely a dps increase" every 2 rain of fires gives you at least 1.5 chaos bolts.



That's been brought up and denied in the thread. It should be real hard to to get chaos bolt to 1 second, which is when it really becomes useless imo.

Also, he started with the hostility and anger, when given an answer to the question he originally posted.

Honestly, he was met with arrogance and an "omg that guy is such a noob", I can understand his reaction.

Anyways, I've played once with so much haste I was under GCD for certain abilities and in practice that was a DPS decrease (This wasn't as a warlock mind you!) so I am talking from a practical and general standpoint here.

[Brusalk]

Honestly, he was met with arrogance and an "omg that guy is such a noob", I can understand his reaction.

Anyways, I've played once with so much haste I was under GCD for certain abilities and in practice that was a DPS decrease (This wasn't as a warlock mind you!) so I am talking from a practical and general standpoint here.

You can't really compare how haste works for different classes. Especially if you are comparing them to Destro which not only has a long cast in Chaos Bolt, but also RoF.

Also, he wasn't "met with arrogance". He asked for an amount of haste at which point to stop getting haste, I said there was no such number, and then hostility started from his side.