How would you like to handle the "gap" between LFR and Normal raiding?

[isadorr]

Except with an easier difficulty nothing will need to be nerfed. There won't need to be a 10% nerf or a gradual increasing buff/debuff because there will already be that difficulty. When wrath ended and 10man was buffed there was a population of raiders who got left out (the friends/family raiders), at the end of Cata this came back to a degree when Dragonsoul was nerfed 20%+ nerf. Right now that doesn't exist in any form.

Some people rather raid with friends/family but they don't want to kick them as they would rather raid with those individuals then other people (wife/husbands, or kids, RL friends etc). Even though they do raid with those people solely because of these relationships if you hit a brick wall and have no hopes of passing it you will find something else to do and this is why groups fall apart. There is a group of raiders (and blizzard has mentioned this) that want to have Organized Social Raiding but normal is too difficult for them. LFR is very anti-social and requires no organization. An "Easy" difficulty >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> LFR in every way.

There has already been a 10% nerf.

[Raone]

There has already been a 10% nerf.

Out of my entire post that's the one part you comment on, a 10% nerf is barely anything. ToT LFR is easier, faster, and has better gear then t14 even with the 10% nerf so why bother. If LFR had worse gear then 496 this would be completely different. And once again it wouldn't need to be nerfed cause there would already be a nerfed mode.

I honestly wished they nerfed t14 by like 20%+ and the gear was 508ish, then there would be a reason to go back there and we would have that "Casual" mode.

[Gurushock]

Umm... Pretty sure the "gap" between LFR and normal isn't very much at all at this time. For me, it's seems pretty good. Hell I'd even say LFR is harder most the time, because you get 5 people AFK all the time, and 10 other people that do either 30k dps, 15k hps, or have no idea how to tank. And the other 10 people just do what they need to do.

[Manhands]

Yeah, there is a strange thing going on where people call someone casual based upon their skill in the game when there are many people that do not play often but are still top ranked in pvp or are ahead of the curve on raid content. Likewise, people call LFR players casual often, when in fact, I wouldn't say they are casually playing because doing all 4 wings of LFR is a pretty hefty time investment.

These people still describe themselves as casual even though that isn't the case, as they have been playing often and likely for a long time... I think a new word needs to be invented lol, I propose "Long term bads"

[insert comment about how you pooped on the word "casual" but then used the word "bads"]

[cabyio]

Because Ion H. said there's a problem. Denial is no longer a relevant option, they're going to do something.

Okay. But why is a new difficulty level between LFR and normals a bad option?

[gcg]

They need to go back to the ICC and previous tier models. LFR was a "solution" to a problem they created when they made the lockouts shared between 10 and 25 and pugs became non existent but casuals get bored of LFR quickly and can anyone honestly tell me they have fun in LFR? The only time anyone has fun in LFR is when you're wiping the group to piss them off. It's completely anti-social and easy mode, it's like using cheat codes in a game then getting bored a 30 mins to an hour later because there is no challenge.

They've alienated their "hardcore" fanbase and the casuals are now leaving them as well, the more subs they lose the more they lose, (all your friends quit, then you quit, etc.)

LFR is just an abomination that needs to go, I mean when a new raid comes out, I wouldn't rush to do LFR to "see" the content, I'd rather go in there with my guild and get that epic feeling but I don't get that feeling from LFR at all, it just leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

10 mans were nice for trying out people for your 25 and learning mechanics so you don't want time in the 25.

[zenyatta]

Okay. But why is a new difficulty level between LFR and normals a bad option?

LFR easy mode
LFR reg
LFR hero
10 easy
10 reg
10 hero
25 easy
25 reg
25hero

It's likely to get very out of hand very fast.

Edi; I enjoy LFR =(

[markdall]

gd 25 man raiders won't rest until 10 man gets worse loot than they do. Holy crap. What, it's not real raiding unless it's as big a pain in the ass logistically as possible?

[Stormspellz]

make lfr equal in ilvl to the previous teir normal mode.

that right there solves a lot of issues from old content not being used to the over the top scaling with 3 difficulty modes

[isadorr]

Out of my entire post that's the one part you comment on, a 10% nerf is barely anything. ToT LFR is easier, faster, and has better gear then t14 even with the 10% nerf so why bother. If LFR had worse gear then 496 this would be completely different. And once again it wouldn't need to be nerfed cause there would already be a nerfed mode.

I honestly wished they nerfed t14 by like 20%+ and the gear was 508ish, then there would be a reason to go back there and we would have that "Casual" mode.

Tot was nerfed quite a while back, i wasnt referring to t14.

[cabyio]

LFR easy mode
LFR reg
LFR hero
10 easy
10 reg
10 hero
25 easy
25 reg
25hero

It's likely to get very out of hand very fast.

Edi; I enjoy LFR =(

Why would you have different versions of LFR? Just:

LFR
Easy (10 or 25man, or hell, maybe just 10 man on easy mode)
Normals (10 or 25)
Heroic (10 or 25)

[isadorr]

[insert comment about how you pooped on the word "casual" but then used the word "bads"]

There is a big difference between a lazy person who refuses to get better constantly being bad to a person who doesn't log in often but still has his toon properly reforged,chanted, haste break points, etc, he does good dps/hps when he plays then logs off after.

---------- Post added 2013-05-17 at 10:08 PM ----------

Why would you have different versions of LFR? Just:

LFR
Easy (10 or 25man, or hell, maybe just 10 man on easy mode)
Normals (10 or 25)
Heroic (10 or 25)

And when do you think the bad game play will stop, or even where will it stop? WIll the people who are so bad they cant even do easy 10man, be mad and want yet another mode made for them called i forgot to breathe and pass out mode?

All of this is the problem that started with wrath babies and nerfs, and is only going to get worse and worse as players want increasingly easier content because they do not want to learn to actually play the game they pay for.

[Deleted]

What I would do is

HCDUNGEONS> heroic dungeons drop heroic blue's + 'LFR' lvl weapons @ last bosses
LFR> have LFR only drop lfr level gear + necklaces etc (no trinkets) + "small chance of 'normal lvl' drop"
make the gap between HC dungeons and LFR smaller and slightly increase gap between LFR and NORMAL
JP> JP for gear to enter LFR or slightly increase overall iLVL or for PvP entry
VP> VP for normal lvl rings and necklaces + trinkets
NORMAL RAID> Normal raids drop normal lvl gear and weapons with a small chance of a 'heroic drops' @ overall bosses
HEROIC RAID> heroic raids drop hc level gear and weapons + an 'elite drop' @ last boss (elite lvl = next tier normal lvl?)

^it's late, might be confusing^

[cabyio]

There is a big difference between a lazy person who refuses to get better constantly being bad to a person who doesn't log in often but still has his toon properly reforged,chanted, haste break points, etc, he does good dps/hps when he plays then logs off after.

---------- Post added 2013-05-17 at 10:08 PM ----------



And when do you think the bad game play will stop, or even where will it stop? WIll the people who are so bad they cant even do easy 10man, be mad and want yet another mode made for them called i forgot to breathe and pass out mode?

All of this is the problem that started with wrath babies and nerfs, and is only going to get worse and worse as players want increasingly easier content because they do not want to learn to actually play the game they pay for.

Hey all I know is if we fill the difficulty gap, then that's less reason to whine. If its on the same lockout as normal and heroic, why does that hurt anyone?

[Raone]

Tot was nerfed quite a while back, i wasnt referring to t14.

My apologies I thought you ment t14, however those were more balancing/tuning then nerfing. Horridon/Council/Tortos were more difficult then the later bosses of the tier, we wiped more on Horridon then any other fight in ToT normal (except maybe Lei Shen, don't remember the total for him) ... Ji'Kun/Consorts/Dark Animus were far easier (we 1 shot Consorts, really under tuned for where they are) so they had to balance the initial bosses better.

[RickJamesLich]

Why would you have different versions of LFR? Just:

LFR
Easy (10 or 25man, or hell, maybe just 10 man on easy mode)
Normals (10 or 25)
Heroic (10 or 25)

I think the thing is, what if easy mode is too hard? Or what if it's too easy, but normal mode is still too hard? I don't think we should just continue to make different modes of the same raid just because not everyone can full clear the type of mode that they want. It becomes a slippery slope right off the bat.

---------- Post added 2013-05-17 at 10:17 PM ----------

[insert comment about how you pooped on the word "casual" but then used the word "bads"]

Didn't poop on the word casual, I'm just saying that it's incorrectly used quite a bit on these forums... and "long term bads" is probably a more accurate word anyway lol.

[Deleted]

What I would do is

HCDUNGEONS> heroic dungeons drop heroic blue's + 'LFR' lvl weapons @ last bosses
LFR> have LFR only drop lfr level gear + necklaces etc (no trinkets) + "small chance of 'normal lvl' drop"
make the gap between HC dungeons and LFR smaller and slightly increase gap between LFR and NORMAL
JP> JP for gear to enter LFR or slightly increase overall iLVL or for PvP entry
VP> VP for normal lvl rings and necklaces + trinkets
NORMAL RAID> Normal raids drop normal lvl gear and weapons with a small chance of a 'heroic drops' @ overall bosses
HEROIC RAID> heroic raids drop hc level gear and weapons + an 'elite drop' @ last boss (elite lvl = next tier normal lvl?)

^it's late, might be confusing^

That would force all normal mode raiders to do LFR each week.

[Vargur]

I don't see the relevance of a "gap" between normal and LFR. LFR is just like a 25 man dungeon, shouldn't remotely count as raiding.
And also, why are some people posting about gear and loot when the OP is talking about the perceived difficulty?

[RickJamesLich]

Some people rather raid with friends/family but they don't want to kick them as they would rather raid with those individuals then other people (wife/husbands, or kids, RL friends etc). Even though they do raid with those people solely because of these relationships if you hit a brick wall and have no hopes of passing it you will find something else to do and this is why groups fall apart. There is a group of raiders (and blizzard has mentioned this) that want to have Organized Social Raiding but normal is too difficult for them. LFR is very anti-social and requires no organization. An "Easy" difficulty >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> LFR in every way

The question is, why should there be guaranteed kills of bosses in the first place? And if they were in place, don't you think the same people that think LFR is boring would think the new difficulty would be boring as well? Why not run dungeons or scenarios with your friends instead? Also, you can still queue up for LFR with all of your friends for a social experience any time you want, the only person stopping the social experience is yourself - no need for blizz to create something brand new for this.

[cabyio]

I think the thing is, what if easy mode is too hard? Or what if it's too easy, but normal mode is still too hard? I don't think we should just continue to make different modes of the same raid just because not everyone can full clear the type of mode that they want. It becomes a slippery slope right off the bat.

All I know is the lead encounter designer has said they want to offer something to the people not currently being served and I would much rather them make a different difficulty then mess with normal. I like normals current difficulty.