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  1. #1221
    its not so much that the content is difficult, it really isnt.. heroic lei shen, im working on this boss currently. and its not necessarily hard, its more or less, 1 person out of 25 has the potential to completely wipe the raid.. most of the fights in the past didnt require perfect execution, but many in ToT do.

    and this is making it harder for top guilds to compete, because if they have 25 players who can play and focus at a high level, when more or one quit, it becomes a real hassle to replace someone with their skill.

    the problem i think is just the lack of willing, skilled players.. there are without a doubt tons of skilled people who play this game, but not very many willing to put in the hours to play in a top end guild, which is why a lot break up. because the lack of good recruits.
    Last edited by orderschvank; 2013-05-18 at 12:39 PM.

  2. #1222
    Quote Originally Posted by orderschvank View Post
    its not so much that the content is difficult, it really isnt.. heroic lei shen, im working on this boss currently. and its not necessarily hard, its more or less, 1 person out of 25 has the potential to completely wipe the raid.. most of the fights in the past didnt require perfect execution, but many in ToT do.

    and this is making it harder for top guilds to compete, because if they have 25 players who can play and focus at a high level, when more or one quit, it becomes a real hassle to replace someone with their skill.

    the problem i think is just the lack of willing, skilled players.. there are without a doubt tons of skilled people who play this game, but not very many willing to put in the hours to play in a top end guild, which is why a lot break up. because the lack of good recruits.
    That's what hard means. There are a large amount of bosses where 1 person can wipe the raid. That hasn't changed.

    It's quite ironic that usually the only people who argue that heroic raids aren't too hard are the people who haven't done them. And these opinions should be ignored.

    You never see progression raiding guilds or world first guilds say that they find these bosses too easy. Because they're the ones wiping endlessly to them. And partly because they don't want to talk down their achievement when they kill these bosses.

  3. #1223
    Quote Originally Posted by Lothrik View Post
    There really was too little to do during Cataclysm, and there really is (well was, they've fixed it somewhat) too much mandatory stuff to do in MoP. For some strange reason, Blizzard thought "there isn't enough stuff to do" meant "please force us to do hundreds of dailies a month."

    Not sure what you mean by T14 not long enough, do you mean not enough content, or not enough time to clear it? I have to disagree on both points regardless of which one you're making. 16 bosses is tons, and there was more than adequate time to clear it all.

    ToT isn't necessarily hard, it's just balanced around the idea that your guild has access to an infinite number of warlocks. Seriously, throw more warlocks at any fight this tier and it magically becomes easier.
    There clearly wasn't enough time to clear them. The stats on wowprogress aren't encouraging.

  4. #1224
    Quote Originally Posted by paralleluniverse View Post
    That's what hard means. There are a large amount of bosses where 1 person can wipe the raid. That hasn't changed.

    It's quite ironic that usually the only people who argue that heroic raids aren't too hard are the people who haven't done them. And these opinions should be ignored.

    You never see progression raiding guilds or world first guilds say that they find these bosses too easy. Because they're the ones wiping endlessly to them. And partly because they don't want to talk down their achievement when they kill these bosses.
    not read the part saying im working on H lei shen have you? ive even switched toons to help progress on its kill. And i still say it isnt hard. its nothing more than a game of awareness and execution, and the people in my guild incapable of that awareness are preventing the kill.

    and i never said it was easy, i love it when people put words into other peoples mouth.

    it isnt easy because it requires gear and a certain level of skill. but it isnt hard when you have those things. its when people in your roster are missing 1 of the 2 that makes something take 300+ attempts to kill.
    Last edited by orderschvank; 2013-05-18 at 12:54 PM.

  5. #1225

  6. #1226
    Quote Originally Posted by paralleluniverse View Post
    There clearly wasn't enough time to clear them. The stats on wowprogress aren't encouraging.
    I took 3~ weeks off during T14 and was in basically a casual guild for all of MSV progression. I still managed to see phase 2 of Heroic Sha while it was current, the amount of time given was gratuitous.

    Quote Originally Posted by paralleluniverse View Post
    That's what hard means. There are a large amount of bosses where 1 person can wipe the raid. That hasn't changed.

    It's quite ironic that usually the only people who argue that heroic raids aren't too hard are the people who haven't done them. And these opinions should be ignored.

    You never see progression raiding guilds or world first guilds say that they find these bosses too easy. Because they're the ones wiping endlessly to them. And partly because they don't want to talk down their achievement when they kill these bosses.
    I'm 6/13H in ToT and the fights I've seen so far have not been "hard" in any sense of the word. They are simply victims of poor class balance.

    Just because certain classes are overpowered and you don't have those doesn't suddenly mean the fights are difficult, it just means Blizzard sucks at balancing classes properly.

    Example: If you have a Warlock with Unerring Vision, Heroic Council is essentially a free kill. The warlock in my guild still doesn't have one, so the fight was a completely ridiculous DPS check as a result.

    Heroic Tortos is another good example. Do you have a Brewmaster Monk and Affliction Warlock? Congrats! You can kill the boss in a single night. No Monk and/or Warlock? Tough luck, you're in for a world of pain.

    Heroic Iron Qon is a good one too. Do you have a Paladin and a Warlock? Can you count to 5 and then BoP stacks off? Congrats, you can kill this boss in a single night too. No Warlock? You're going to have tons of fun with Windstorm. No Paladin? I hope you like two tanking.
    Last edited by Lothrik; 2013-05-18 at 01:17 PM.

  7. #1227
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Lothrik View Post
    I took 3~ weeks off during T14 and was in basically a casual guild for all of MSV progression. I still managed to see phase 2 of Heroic Sha while it was current, the amount of time given was gratuitous.



    I'm 6/13H in ToT and the fights I've seen so far have not been "hard" in any sense of the word. They are simply victims of poor class balance.

    Just because certain classes are overpowered and you don't have those doesn't suddenly mean the fights are difficult, it just means Blizzard sucks at balancing classes properly.

    Example: If you have a Warlock with Unerring Vision, Heroic Council is essentially a free kill. The warlock in my guild still doesn't have one, so the fight was a completely ridiculous DPS check as a result.

    Heroic Tortos is another good example. Do you have a Brewmaster Monk and Affliction Warlock? Congrats! You can kill the boss in a single night. No Monk and/or Warlock? Tough luck, you're in for a world of pain.

    Heroic Iron Qon is a good one too. Do you have a Paladin and a Warlock? Can you count to 5 and then BoP stacks off? Congrats, you can kill this boss in a single night too.
    I find this perspective interesting because it seems to seperate difficulty from the actual people who will be performing the tasks.

    As though difficulty was some concept that just hangs out in space and it's interaction with real players doesn't either occur or matter. But then you mention class balance and notice the actuality of raiding again.

    T14 was too short for the overwhleming majority of the people who tried to complete it, in the same way that tot normal is far too tricky.

  8. #1228
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    I find this perspective interesting because it seems to seperate difficulty from the actual people who will be performing the tasks.

    As though difficulty was some concept that just hangs out in space and it's interaction with real players doesn't either occur or matter. But then you mention class balance and notice the actuality of raiding again.

    T14 was too short for the overwhleming majority of the people who tried to complete it, in the same way that tot normal is far too tricky.
    I just don't like it when people try and claim fights are difficult simply because class balance is horrible. A difficult fight should demand high awareness and fast response times from everyone involved.

    Most of the fights this tier don't do that, they simply demand you have the appropriate classes available.

    Heroic Ragnaros is a good example of a difficult fight, there were a huge number of mechanics and multiple phases that had to be executed correctly over a long period of time, and nobody was really exempt from paying attention.

    Heroic Tortos for comparison, from a healer's perspective? Dodge turtles and blue circles, spam heal, click crystal if buff falls off. That's it, the entire fight.

  9. #1229
    Quote Originally Posted by orderschvank View Post
    not read the part saying im working on H lei shen have you? ive even switched toons to help progress on its kill. And i still say it isnt hard. its nothing more than a game of awareness and execution, and the people in my guild incapable of that awareness are preventing the kill.
    Welcome to every raid boss ever made.

  10. #1230
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Lothrik View Post
    I just don't like it when people try and claim fights are difficult simply because class balance is horrible. A difficult fight should demand high awareness and fast response times from everyone involved.
    It should indeed. Problem is, this is what normal modes are now like.
    Most of the fights this tier don't do that, they simply demand you have the appropriate classes available.

    Heroic Ragnaros is a good example of a difficult fight, there were a huge number of mechanics and multiple phases that had to be executed correctly over a long period of time, and nobody was really exempt from paying attention.
    Take your word for it, never even dreamed of trying it. Normal was an utter bastard for us, quite proud of getting it done.
    Heroic Tortos for comparison, from a healer's perspective? Dodge turtles and blue circles, spam heal, click crystal if buff falls off. That's it, the entire fight.
    Same on norma minus the crystal thing whatever it isl, and it's very difficult to pull off. Or at least it was for me on my druid when I stood in for someone else in another raid.

  11. #1231
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    It should indeed. Problem is, this is what normal modes are now like.


    Take your word for it, never even dreamed of trying it. Normal was an utter bastard for us, quite proud of getting it done.


    Same on norma minus the crystal thing whatever it isl, and it's very difficult to pull off. Or at least it was for me on my druid when I stood in for someone else in another raid.
    I'm going to take a wild guess here. You don't have a warlock in your raid, do you? Curse of Exhaustion can slow those turtles by 70%, completely trivializing the entire fight. Spirit Shell from a Disc Priest can also absorb basically 100% of every other stomp on normal as well. This is exactly what I mean when I say poor class balance is being incorrectly attributed to fight difficulty.

  12. #1232
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Lothrik View Post
    I'm going to take a wild guess here.
    Go for it.
    You don't have a warlock in your raid, do you? Curse of Exhaustion can slow those turtles by 70%, completely trivializing the entire fight.
    Oh no, if the turtles came out in a conga line ready to be kicked i'd still find it tricky.
    Spirit Shell from a Disc Priest can also absorb basically 100% of every other stomp on normal as well. This is exactly what I mean when I say poor class balance is being incorrectly attributed to fight difficulty.
    Same thing, for most guilds. Like I said, you want to seperate difficulty from the players actually performing the tasks, it's a bit weird.

  13. #1233
    Quote Originally Posted by Lothrik View Post
    Just because certain classes are overpowered and you don't have those doesn't suddenly mean the fights are difficult, it just means Blizzard sucks at balancing classes properly.

    Example: If you have a Warlock with Unerring Vision, Heroic Council is essentially a free kill. The warlock in my guild still doesn't have one, so the fight was a completely ridiculous DPS check as a result.

    Heroic Tortos is another good example. Do you have a Brewmaster Monk and Affliction Warlock? Congrats! You can kill the boss in a single night. No Monk and/or Warlock? Tough luck, you're in for a world of pain.

    Heroic Iron Qon is a good one too. Do you have a Paladin and a Warlock? Can you count to 5 and then BoP stacks off? Congrats, you can kill this boss in a single night too. No Warlock? You're going to have tons of fun with Windstorm. No Paladin? I hope you like two tanking.
    This would lead to changes like:
    - Grounding Totem doesn't redirect effects on raid environments.
    - From now on you can't avoid any boss mechanic with any ability. No Cloak, No Ice Block, No Divine Shield, No Deterrence, can't use Every Man for Himself either.
    - Blink doesn't remove stuns on raid environments.
    - AMS doesn't prevent any effect on raid environments.
    - Hand of Protection doesn't remove any effects on raid environments.
    - Dispersion doesn't reduce damage taken on raid environments.
    - Spell Reflect also doesn't work anymore.
    - It's not possible to Disarm bosses or adds anymore.
    - Mechanics like Down Draft from Ji-kun also prevent Stampending Roar from working.
    - In order to prevent Multi-dot abuse, you can only have dots up on one target.
    - Warlock Portals removed.
    - Atonement Healing removed.
    - No encounter mechanic can be dealt better with Absorb mechanics than Healing mechanics.
    - And so on.

    Not looking forward to a game like this.

  14. #1234
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    Go for it.


    Oh no, if the turtles came out in a conga line ready to be kicked i'd still find it tricky.


    Same thing, for most guilds. Like I said, you want to seperate difficulty from the players actually performing the tasks, it's a bit weird.
    I don't see what's so weird about it. I want fights to be, within some reasonable margin, about the same difficulty regardless of raid composition. One ranged DPS should be within 15% as useful as any other ranged DPS on a fight. Same with everything else, tanks, melee DPS, healers. This simply is not the case currently.

    I just want classes to be balanced so you're not forced to have specific, arbitrary classes to make fights feasible.

    Progressing on Heroic Council and not being able to immunity frostbite at all when other groups that have paladins/mages are able to completely ignore said mechanic is not cool.

    Bringing in a 500 iLvl Brewmaster alt to Heroic Tortos because it's easier to heal with said brewmaster kiting bats rather than a 525 iLvl Prot Warrior (kiting or tanking, it went horribly either way) is not cool.

    If a conga line of turtles moving at 30% speed is difficult for you, so be it. I'm not buying that it's as difficult as a spattering of mach-4 turtles going in every direction though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Milkwolfgang View Post
    This would lead to changes like:
    - Grounding Totem doesn't redirect effects on raid environments.
    - From now on you can't avoid any boss mechanic with any ability. No Cloak, No Ice Block, No Divine Shield, No Deterrence, can't use Every Man for Himself either.
    - Blink doesn't remove stuns on raid environments.
    - AMS doesn't prevent any effect on raid environments.
    - Hand of Protection doesn't remove any effects on raid environments.
    - Dispersion doesn't reduce damage taken on raid environments.
    - Spell Reflect also doesn't work anymore.
    - It's not possible to Disarm bosses or adds anymore.
    - Mechanics like Down Draft from Ji-kun also prevent Stampending Roar from working.
    - In order to prevent Multi-dot abuse, you can only have dots up on one target.
    - Warlock Portals removed.
    - Atonement Healing removed.
    - No encounter mechanic can be dealt better with Absorb mechanics than Healing mechanics.
    - And so on.

    Not looking forward to a game like this.
    Oh hey, while we're on the topic of Grounding Totem!

    http://www.wowhead.com/spell=123461

    Glyphed Grounding Totem can prevent the damage from the Get Away! mechanic on Lei Shi. I say can, because I'm pretty sure it still works even on Heroic, Blizzard just doesn't care enough to fix it.

    You used to be able to toss a Flare on Lei Shi and prevent Get Away! from happening completely. Do you really think something like this is balanced? How would you feel if your guild had no hunters and you knew about this?

    Hand of Purity's 70% reduction worked on Frostbite on Heroic Council for ages, then they realized how blatantly overpowered that was and hotfixed it.

    Blizzard is far too generous (I'd even say they're just lazy) with what does and doesn't work to handle boss mechanics.
    Last edited by Lothrik; 2013-05-18 at 02:06 PM.

  15. #1235
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Lothrik View Post
    I don't see what's so weird about it. I want fights to be, within some reasonable margin, about the same difficulty regardless of raid composition. One ranged DPS should be within 15% as useful as any other ranged DPS on a fight. Same with everything else, tanks, melee DPS, healers. This simply is not the case currently.

    I just want classes to be balanced so you're not forced to have specific, arbitrary classes to make fights feasible.
    Much easier just to have bosses that aren't so difficult to kill. Preserves class identity.
    Progressing on Heroic Council and not being able to immunity frostbite at all when other groups that have paladins/mages are able to completely ignore said mechanic is not cool.

    Bringing in a 500 iLvl Brewmaster alt to Heroic Tortos because it's easier to heal with said brewmaster kiting bats rather than a 525 iLvl Prot Warrior (kiting or tanking, it went horribly either way) is not cool.

    If a conga line of turtles moving at 30% speed is difficult for you, so be it. I'm not buying that it's as difficult as a spattering of mach-4 turtles going in every direction though.
    Once you are overloaded, it doesn't matter what else gets added.

  16. #1236
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    Much easier just to have bosses that aren't so difficult to kill. Preserves class identity.
    So.. you just don't think there's any problem with certain classes being mind-bogglingly overpowered. It makes them unique, so it's good.

    I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. I think it's an extremely negative aspect of raiding in WoW.

    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    Once you are overloaded, it doesn't matter what else gets added.
    I really don't understand what you're overloaded with on normal tortos. Use cooldowns for stomps, don't stand in circles, don't get hit by turtles. Is three really too many mechanics for a normal mode from a healing perspective?

  17. #1237
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Lothrik View Post
    So.. you just don't think there's any problem with certain classes being mind-bogglingly overpowered. It makes them unique, so it's good.

    I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. I think it's an extremely negative aspect of raiding in WoW.
    But you don't think that just making the bosses doable with the lowest possible spec and if the better ones do it easier is a solution?


    I really don't understand what you're overloaded with on normal tortos. Use cooldowns for stomps, don't stand in circles, don't get hit by turtles. Is three really too many mechanics for a normal mode from a healing perspective?
    There you go again, "from a healing perspective". No. From MY perspective there was too much going on.

  18. #1238
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    But you don't think that just making the bosses doable with the lowest possible spec and if the better ones do it easier is a solution?
    No, because then the fight would be completely trivial with the correct classes and be boring as hell. Did you miss the part where I said I play games like this for the challenge? I don't want the challenge to be "shit, we have no warlock and have to recruit one or this boss will take 300+ wipes and be basically impossible to get a repeat kill on."

    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    There you go again, "from a healing perspective". No. From MY perspective there was too much going on.
    Well, what perspective are you looking at it from exactly, then? DPSing? Tanking? Please enlighten me on what mechanic I'm missing here. (Bats, I know -- I'll get to that shortly. I mean anything else.)

    Probably the most difficult role on that fight is the OT that handles picking up bats, and even that is only really difficult because the bats spawn in random locations. It's still the exact same concept regardless: dodge turtles and circles, use cooldowns for stomps. Just replace "heal players" with "DPS correct targets."

  19. #1239
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Lothrik View Post
    No, because then the fight would be completely trivial with the correct classes and be boring as hell. Did you miss the part where I said I play games like this for the challenge?
    then play the least optimal class. Or wear a blindfold. Not really seeing an argument whereby everyone has to struggle like fuck just so you can have something you can do for yourself anyway.
    I don't want the challenge to be "shit, we have no warlock and have to recruit one or this boss will take 300+ wipes and be basically impossible to get a repeat kill on."
    Then my suggestions match your needs perfectly.


    Well, what perspective are you looking at it from exactly, then? DPSing? Tanking? Please enlighten me on what mechanic I'm missing here. (Bats, I know -- I'll get to that shortly. I mean anything else.)
    My perspective while healing. it doesn't matter what class. This is what I mean, you want to measure difficulty against some theoretical maximum performance and solve all issues around difficuty by just pointing to said perfect performance. Buit that's not things really work - in reality real people actually find stuff difficult due to their own abilities, likes, dislikes and so on. These inherent qualities aren't going anywhere and have to be addressed if you want to design for them.
    Probably the most difficult role on that fight is the OT that handles picking up bats, and even that is only really difficult because the bats spawn in random locations. It's still the exact same concept regardless: dodge turtles and circles, use cooldowns for stomps. Just replace "heal players" with "DPS correct targets."
    Agan, you are completely ignoring what I am telling you. I found healing it difficult on normal. I was overloaded with shit to do. Tortos died, btw but it wasn't much fun and at all points I was like "fucks, sake arrgh."

  20. #1240
    I attribute most of the break ups to summer time, and what generally occurs before summer time starts for a lot of players: Finals.

    Our guild is currently 4/13HM. By no means near the top, as well not exactly slackers either. We have seen/are seeing our ups and downs like a lot of guilds that aren't at the top end. We aren't flooded with apps like they are. Most of the people we lost were due to RL issues (Finals), burnt out (Dailycraft & Summertime blues), and the occasional ship jumper thinking the grass is greener on the other side of the flag.

    I don't feel ToT normal was difficult at all. The first week with the mistuning of 10man made me wonder, especially walking in with Heroic T14 gear, the first couple bosses (excluding Jin'Rohk) took a LOT more time than those that followed.

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