Is ToT too challenging causing the guild break ups?

[Lothrik]

Agan, you are completely ignoring what I am telling you. I found healing it difficult on normal. I was overloaded with shit to do. Tortos died, btw but it wasn't much fun and at all points I was like "fucks, sake arrgh."

You still haven't actually answered my question, I acknowledged that you found it difficult to heal. I asked you what part of it you found made it difficult. You can't just throw up your hands and say all of it and expect a conversation to work.

then play the least optimal class. Or wear a blindfold. Not really seeing an argument whereby everyone has to struggle like fuck just so you can have something you can do for yourself anyway.

Then my suggestions match your needs perfectly.

I don't get it. You're telling me that if I want a challenge, I should go out of my way and screw over the 9 other people I raid with by intentionally making it harder for myself, for my own pleasure?

Alright, I'm out. You're crazy.

[Deleted]

You still haven't actually answered my question, I acknowledged that you found it difficult to heal. I asked you what part of it you found made it difficult. You can't just throw up your hands and say all of it and expect a conversation to work.

I've already told you several times. I was overloaded with shit to do. It wasn't that any particualr part was difficult, it's that when you stack it all together I have too much on my plate to deal with.

I don't get it. You're telling me that if I want a challenge, I should go out of my way and screw over the 9 other people I raid with by intentionally making it harder for myself, for my own pleasure?

What is the difference between that and getting blizzard to do it for you? (Other than it ruining the game for loads of other people, that is.)

Alright, I'm out. You're crazy.

You want more difficulty and you can have it any time you like. All you have to do is make things harder for yourself and you are golden. Why is this logic hard to follow for you?

[Caliph]

How is ToT normal too difficult? i think it's just right. even before nerfs horridon wasn't too bad. i admit my scrub guild only cleared it after the nerf but still we were gonna get it eventually.

L2P imo. do things right and it's not hard at all.

there are however bad design decisions. stupid things like kicking turtles, and that really awful maze on durumu imo just make it a gate. Tortos when done with someone who knows how to kick is simple but if you have one screw up on the kick it's gg. durumu isn't a pass/fail player issue as much as it is a graphical issue. I still have problems seeing teh path at times. sometimes the path is discernnable other times it's not. that's just bad design.

the other fights i don't think are unreasonable in any way and lei shen is a great end of tier fight. i don't know about hardmodes as i don't particularly care about them.

After reading many of the posts i do agree that some fights are much more difficult to progress on even in normal if you don't have the power classes. the power classes or certain classes/specs just make some fights easier by way of their mechanics or spells and such. if youdon't have that class/spec then you have a much harder time. blizzard is imo focused on making so many new or differing encounters as to ignore class balance or usage. unless of course if it's a mage class. they always have to have 3 viable specs. or at the very least the top or never below middle pack.

[Lothrik]

What is the difference between that and getting blizzard to do it for you? (Other than it ruining the game for loads of other people, that is.)


You want more difficulty and you can have it any time you like. All you have to do is make things harder for yourself and you are golden. Why is this logic hard to follow for you?

I said in basically every post I want the fights to be difficult on their own merit and not rely on class imbalance to provide a difficulty curve. Your response is that I should play the worst class possible for every encounter because apparently I'm a horrible person and deserve to be punished. Certain things are overpowered in PvE, and other classes should be given comparable utility to compensate, period.

I've already told you several times. I was overloaded with shit to do. It wasn't that any particualr part was difficult, it's that when you stack it all together I have too much on my plate to deal with.

Got it, 4 mechanics is too many for a normal mode. Somebody inform Blizzard post-haste.

[Deleted]

I said in basically every post I want the fights to be difficult on their own merit and not rely on class imbalance to provide a difficulty curve. Your response is that I should play the worst class possible for every encounter because apparently I'm a horrible person and deserve to be punished. Certain things are overpowered in PvE, and other classes should be given comparable utility to compensate, period.

Or the fights be detuned so that he weakest class can do them and if you want more difficulty, try and juggle or play guitar or some shit while you play wow.

There is zero reason for hundreds of thousands of other potential raiders to be left hanging just because you want blizzard to do something for you you can do for yourself anyway.

[Lothrik]

Or the fights be detuned so that he weakest class can do them and if you want more difficulty, try and juggle or play guitar or some shit while you play wow.

There is zero reason for hundreds of thousands of other potential raiders to be left hanging just because you want blizzard to do something for you you can do for yourself anyway.

Why exactly do you raid in the first place? You have the worst attitude about raid difficulty of anyone I've spoken to in years.

[jax]

I took 3~ weeks off during T14 and was in basically a casual guild for all of MSV progression. I still managed to see phase 2 of Heroic Sha while it was current, the amount of time given was gratuitous.

Gratz? Clearly you define casual differently than others... Your ancedotal story means nothing when the Lead Encounter Designer has stated for a fact that that ToT is too much for a big chunk of people.

Just because certain classes are overpowered and you don't have those doesn't suddenly mean the fights are difficult, it just means Blizzard sucks at balancing classes properly.

Huh? Wtf are you saying?

Example: If you have a Warlock with Unerring Vision, Heroic Council is essentially a free kill. The warlock in my guild still doesn't have one, so the fight was a completely ridiculous DPS check as a result.

So the fight is hard... if you can stack a class it makes it much easier...

Um, you just said the fight was hard to complete but your saying the fights arent hard????

Heroic Tortos is another good example. Do you have a Brewmaster Monk and Affliction Warlock? Congrats! You can kill the boss in a single night. No Monk and/or Warlock? Tough luck, you're in for a world of pain.

So the fight is hard to complete unless you class stack...

So the fight is hard to complete...

Heroic Iron Qon is a good one too. Do you have a Paladin and a Warlock? Can you count to 5 and then BoP stacks off? Congrats, you can kill this boss in a single night too. No Warlock? You're going to have tons of fun with Windstorm. No Paladin? I hope you like two tanking.

So the fight is hard to complete without class stacking...

So the fight is hard to complete...

/boggle

[Deleted]

Why exactly do you raid in the first place?

because it's a lot of fun, mostly. Or it has been these last 8 years or so.

You have the worst attitude about raid difficulty of anyone I've spoken to in years.

How so? Nowhere have I been negative.

[Lothrik]

Gratz? Clearly you define casual differently than others... Your ancedotal story means nothing when the Lead Encounter Designer has stated for a fact that that ToT is too much for a big chunk of people.

The guild I was talking about killed Heroic Jin'rokh for the first time 3 days ago. It took them two months to clear normal mode at 500+ iLvl. I'm sure there are more casual guilds out there, but I'm pretty sure by any reasonable standard, two months to clear normal mode (when you already have a fully geared raid group) is casual.

So the fight is hard to complete without class stacking...

So the fight is hard to complete...

/boggle

One warlock is class stacking? What a world we live in.

because it's a lot of fun, mostly. Or it has been these last 8 years or so.


How so? Nowhere have I been negative.

I pointed out that a lot of fights seem difficult to guilds because they don't have the correct classes available for the fights. Your response to this was essentially "they should just nerf the fights, they don't need to balance the classes" and "if you want difficulty you should just play a shitty class."

You attack me for liking difficult fights and belittle me for suggesting Blizzard should balance classes properly rather than blindly nerfing fights.

Your attitude is terrible.

[Choptimus]

Much easier just to have bosses that aren't so difficult to kill. Preserves class identity.

Current state of the chosen ones compared to the shit classes is not acceptable. It doesn't affect 10man normal or 25mans as much, but 10man heroic gains far too much from taking 2 locks (for example) to the point where it can almost trivialise encounters compared to a raid comp without the chosen ones. Yeah people could reroll the fotm class, but that's not fun, nor should it be expected. Don't nerf heroics, balance classes so there is no clear favourite for every single boss. Normals aren't difficult to kill anyway and don't require a strict comp.

---------- Post added 2013-05-18 at 03:57 PM ----------

One warlock is class stacking? What a world we live in.

To be fair the strength of one good warlock can really sway the difficulty of many encounters this tier when compared to say a hunter, or any melee. (10hc)

[Deleted]

I pointed out that a lot of fights seem difficult to guilds because they don't have the correct classes available for the fights. Your response to this was essentially "they should just nerf the fights, they don't need to balance the classes" and "if you want difficulty you should just play a shitty class."

You attack me for liking difficult fights and belittle me for suggesting Blizzard should balance classes properly rather than blindly nerfing fights.

I'm sorry if you feel attacked, I really only offered solutions to your issues that would leave everyone else alone.

Your attitude is terrible.

How so? Nowhere have I been negative.

I gave you a perfect solution to your problem (wanting more difficulty) which would also leave the game completable for a lot more people (benefits them as well)

it's a solution you can use right now, today and will last you forever. It even extends beyond wow. You can thank me any time you like for it.

But why me giving you exactly what you asked for means I have a terrible attitude i'd love for you to explain. Enlighten me.

[Lothrik]

To be fair the strength of one good warlock can really sway the difficulty of many encounters this tier when compared to say a hunter, or any melee. (10hc)

Oh yeah, I agree completely. That's why I kept preaching how terrible class balance is. A decent warlock can DOUBLE the amount of damage say, a Hunter can do on Heroic Council. On top of that, Warlocks have an infinitely easier time staying alive.

I'm sorry if you feel attacked, I really only offered solutions to your issues that would leave everyone else alone.

Your "solution" involves punishing me (I enjoy my class quite a lot and have no desire whatsoever to play something else), and completely disregards the problem (class balance this tier is abysmal, you may simply be unaware if you're not progressing on heroics).

You also seem stuck in willful ignorance. Every single post I've said I want better class balance, and that I enjoy difficult fights. The answer to this is not, has never been, and never will be "play a shitty class" -- so stop repeating it please, you're making a fool out of yourself.

But why me giving you exactly what you asked for means I have a terrible attitude i'd love for you to explain.
Enlighten me.

Already did, not going to do it again.

[Deleted]

Your "solution" involves punishing me (I enjoy my class quite a lot and have no desire whatsoever to play something else), and completely disregards the problem (class balance this tier is abysmal, you may simply be unaware if you're not progressing on heroics).

Not at all. If the boss is easily killable on the WORST class,then you can play what you like. if you want more difficulty, just add extra things to do while you are at your keyboard until you are challenged. Job done, and the other 8 million players of wow aren't inconvenienced in any way.

You also seem stuck in willful ignorance. Every single post I've said I want better class balance, and that I enjoy difficult fights. The answer to this is not, has never been, and never will be "play a shitty class" -- so stop repeating it please, you're making a fool out of yourself.

My solution wasn't "play a shitty class" it was "do extra stuff out of game until it's difficult for you. " lets face it, you could even make LFR a challenging hell for yourself if you really are interested in diffculty using that method.

peel an orange and do lfr while also completing a rubiks cube. Hurrah, you are doing something difficult and no one else needs to have nightmares in normal mode again. Everyone wins.

[Lothrik]

Not at all. If the boss is easily killable on the WORST class,then you can play what you like. if you want more difficulty, just add extra things to do while you are at your keyboard until you are challenged. Job done, and the other 8 million players of wow aren't inconvenienced in any way.

I'm confused, are you living in some fantasy world where you can kill any boss with any raid composition? I'd sure love to visit, because that's not the reality I happen to inhabit.

I'm not asking Blizzard to make the fights harder, I get the impression that's what you think I'm suggesting. I want all the fights to be feasible without certain classes being mandatory. I'm fine with certain classes being better than others, but you should not be able to increase overall raid DPS by 25% by swapping one class for another -- especially not when that swap actually improves raid utility.

Also, making LFR challenging is borderline impossible. You can spam a single button while watching a movie, leaving yourself on follow and successfully complete LFR.

[jax]

but I'm pretty sure by any reasonable standard, two months to clear normal mode (when you already have a fully geared raid group) is casual.

and you would be wrong... this is the problem, people that are better than average do not understand what average is...

26% of all raiding guilds have killed LeiShen to date.. thats what? 2.5 months in and 1/4 of all raiders have finished the tier... does you killing a heroic boss seem average now? It may be incredibly average when your 13/13 heroic but trying to portray you killing any heroic bosses with your guild and it being "average" is laughable.
Having killed heroic Jinrohk puts you in the top 80% of all raiders... that would be a B in school terms. I was unaware that Bs were average, Sure thought D's were average and C's above average, B's very good, and A's the tip of the sword...

You understand that average is 50% out of a 100% in most countries right??? When your in the top 80% of guilds with a heroic kill... you are FAR above the "average"

One warlock is class stacking? What a world we live in.

And yet you avoid the entire point of the post... you admitted 3 different times the fights were hard to complete, then said with the right class they arent, then said the fights are easy...

What a world we live in...

peel an orange and do lfr while also completing a rubiks cube. Hurrah, you are doing something difficult and no one else needs to have nightmares in normal mode again. Everyone wins.

I loled IRL at this... great mental image!

[Deleted]

I'm confused, are you living in some fantasy world where you can kill any boss with any raid composition? I'd sure love to visit, because that's not the reality I happen to inhabit.

No, I am saying that the solution to your problem of "omfg class balance" is to make the game be that way. i.e. if you can clear the raid with anything at all, then theres no issue that other classes are necesssary, is there?

I'm not asking Blizzard to make the fights harder, I get the impression that's what you think I'm suggesting. I want all the fights to be feasible without certain classes being mandatory.

Then make the fights much easier - and if you want more difficulty, add it yourself, out of game. Everyone wins.

Also, making LFR challenging is borderline impossible. You can spam a single button while watching a movie, leaving yourself on follow and successfully complete LFR.

You've got no imagination then. The point is to MAKE it difficult for yourself. I'm sure you can find a way, if difficulty is really your thing.

[Lothrik]

and you would be wrong... this is the problem, people that are better than average do not understand what average is...

26% of all raiding guilds have killed LeiShen to date.. thats what? 2.5 months in and 1/4 of all raiders have finished the tier... does you killing a heroic boss seem average now? It may be incredibly average when your 13/13 heroic but trying to portray you killing any heroic bosses with your guild and it being "average" is laughable.
Having killed heroic Jinrohk puts you in the top 80% of all raiders... that would be a B in school terms. I was unaware that Bs were average, Sure thought D's were average and C's above average, B's very good, and A's the tip of the sword...

You understand that average is 50% out of a 100% in most countries right??? When your in the top 80% of guilds with a heroic kill... you are FAR above the "average"

That's all fine and dandy, but we weren't talking about averages. We're talking about casual vs hardcore guilds, and I'm willing to bet more than 85% of guilds are casual -- which puts killing heroic Jin'rokh 3 days ago quite easily within reach of a casual guild.

And yet you avoid the entire point of the post... you admitted 3 different times the fights were hard to complete, then said with the right class they arent, then said the fights are easy...

What a world we live in...

They're hard to complete for the wrong reasons. Not having a warlock show up for Heroic Council should not be grounds to cancel a raid, especially when you have more than enough people available. Sadly it pretty much is though -- the fight is trivial mechanically, there is very little to "learn" and a whole lot of "we have to do a lot of DPS or we lose."

Then make the fights much easier - and if you want more difficulty, add it yourself, out of game. Everyone wins.

You're basically saying that instead of levelling the playing field, we should lower the bar until anyone with access to a credit card can kill the hardest boss in the game.

I disagree with you on a fundamental level here, and I'm not going to humor you by handicapping myself with shit like solving a rubix cube while I raid so it's "more difficult." I'm not a fucking circus clown, I don't juggle chainsaws while I raid because I'm some sort of difficulty-junkie.

You've got no imagination then. The point is to MAKE it difficult for yourself. I'm sure you can find a way, if difficulty is really your thing.

Oh no, I can imagine ways to make LFR difficult. You're talking about artificial difficulty, which as I've said repeatedly I have no interest in whatsoever, and you're apparently too dense to notice.

[jax]

That's all fine and dandy, but we weren't talking about averages. We're talking about casual vs hardcore guilds, and I'm willing to bet more than 85% of guilds are casual -- which puts killing heroic Jin'rokh 3 days ago quite easily within reach of a casual guild.

Source? This seems more like some mumbo jumbo you made up to try and defend a undefensible postition?

No where is casual defined because it can mean so many things... The only measure you can use is "average"

They're hard to complete for the wrong reasons.

Now your arguing semantics, the point was they are too hard. Not why they are too hard. If we get into why each person thinks they are too hard we have stepped into pandora's box, hell the debate on if they are too hard has been raging for 65 pages... twisting it now to try and define the why of it is a fools errand!

[Lothrik]

Source? This seems more like some mumbo jumbo you made up to try and defend a undefensible postition?

No where is casual defined because it can mean so many things... The only measure you can use is "average"

No, that's the only measure you can use. I personally know damn well the guild I'm talking about is a casual guild, I was in it for christs sake. But no, apparently you know more about the guild I was in than I do.

Now your arguing semantics, the point was they are too hard. Not why they are too hard. If we get into why each person thinks they are too hard we have stepped into pandora's box, hell the debate on if they are too hard has been raging for 65 pages... twisting it now to try and define the why of it is a fools errand!

I'm not arguing semantics, I'm defending my initial statements. When I joined this topic I wasn't replying to anyone in particular, so I don't give two shits about the 65 pages prior and whatever nonsense they delved into. You want to attack my statements go ahead, but don't drag other random crap into it.

[Deleted]

You're basically saying that instead of levelling the playing field, we should lower the bar until anyone with access to a credit card can kill the hardest boss in the game.

No, I am quite sure I said so that the weakest existing team can complete it.

I disagree with you on a fundamental level here, and I'm not going to humor you by handicapping myself with shit like solving a rubix cube while I raid so it's "more difficult." I'm not a fucking circus clown, I don't juggle chainsaws while I raid because I'm some sort of difficulty-junkie.

Then may I respectfully suggest you are mistaken when you intone that you seek difficulty. I hope you follow my reasoning here - you said you wanted more challenge. I gave you a way to get that challenge, which you then rejected.

Oh no, I can imagine ways to make LFR difficult. You're talking about artificial difficulty, which as I've said repeatedly I have no interest in whatsoever, and you're apparently too dense to notice.

How is it any more artificial than getting the designers of wow do it? You do realise it's all arbitary, right?