Would you prefer Garrosh killed, exiled, imprisoned, or redeemed?

[The Madgod]

Have you any prove of a personal interest of him about the Eastern Kingdoms? The only thing is Gilneas, and he have pretty different interests there, not conquer the land for his people, the last thing in the world he want to have are the Forsaken on their very footsteps. You presume a lot with little back up.

If you honestly believe Garrosh wouldn't want to destroy Stormwind then I'm done with this conversation. If you honestly believe the only thing he wants in the Eastern Kingdoms is Gilneas, a country that was freshly returned to the world via the Cataclysm that hadn't even given Garrosh the evil eye, despite there being an entire continent principally owned by the orc's arch enemy, headed by a man who has personally insulted Garrosh multiple times... I'm not sure what to think anymore.

Though if you'd like proof, pretty sure that giant gun that he hired the Goblins to build is aimed at Stormwind. Seriously, you underestimate Garrosh nor understand his true intentions if you think that his only interest in the Eastern Kingdoms is Gilneas.

[Zulkhan]

If you honestly believe Garrosh wouldn't want to destroy Stormwind then I'm done with this part of the conversation. If you honestly believe the only thing he wants in the Eastern Kingdoms is Gilneas, a country that was freshly returned to the world via the Cataclysm that hadn't even given Garrosh the evil eye, despite there being an entire continent principally owned by the orc's arch enemy, headed by a man who has personally insulted Garrosh multiple times... I'm not sure what to think anymore.

Though if you'd like proof, pretty sure that giant gun that he hired the Goblins to build is aimed at Stormwind. Seriously, you underestimate Garrosh nor understand his true intentions if you think that his only interest in the Eastern Kingdoms is Gilneas.

This is your problem, you presumes a lot, this is all that you do. If Garrosh at this point, in 5.4, would attack Stormwind, wouldn't surprise me at all, but BECAUSE of the escalation, the Alliance continued to oppose him even in Pandaria, Anduin even destroyed the Divine Bell that he wanted to use for empower his army, and the chances he sees for submit the Alliance are decreasing every day. And as i said before, if the Alliance continues to don't give up to Garrosh in battle, he, in the end, will surely aims to obliterate them from the planet, on their very home. So, yes, at that point of course he will outright attack the Alliance in their own territory.

You clearly don't fully understand the character, and for this very reason you never understood my points, you are just too biased about it and see only that you want to see. I'm done here.

[Trassk]

Just a thing, he cannot have human characteristics in his BLOOD lol he is son of the orc that tried to oppose alone Gul'dan and his warlocks, he's a "particular" orc also for this. On the other hand, he has been raised by the most coward, pathetic and horrible human that Lordaeron has ever seen.

He wasn't really 'raised' by blackmoore, more conditioned by him, where as Taretha, Sergeant and Jaramin Skisson taught him the things that made him so intelligent, and understanding of strategy, language and every other things that he survived on. He also learned humility from the frostwolves, and even from doomhammer. The whole point made at the end of the book states how he learned from so many, both orc and human.

[The Madgod]

This is your problem, you presumes a lot, this is all that you do. If Garrosh at this point, in 5.4, would attack Stormwind, wouldn't surprise me at all, but BECAUSE of the escalation, the Alliance continued to oppose him even in Pandaria, Anduin even destroyed the Divine Bell that he wanted to use for empower his army, and the chances he sees for submit the Alliance are decreasing every day. And as i said before, if the Alliance continues to don't give up to Garrosh in battle, he, in the end, will surely aims to obliterate them from the planet, on their very home. So, yes, at that point of course he will outright attack the Alliance in their own territory.

You clearly don't fully understand the character, and for this very reason you never understood my points, you are just too biased about it and see only that you want to see. I'm done here.

The irony is palpable. No, I look at this character and I don't see someone who would ever want peace with the Alliance. He barely even cares about his allies and you're saying that he'd tolerate the Alliance, the Horde's longest enemy? My thoughts are the outcome of simple logic and my observations of his past and present personalities. The real reason he has yet to attack Eastern Kingdom Alliance territory, save Gilneas, is that he has been busy elsewhere and he doesn't have the manpower to do it. His forces are attacking Alliance in Kalimdor and Gilneas because the Horde's influence is strongest near those areas. It would have been problematic for him to attack Stormwind or Ironforge during that time and as has been said the bulk of the fighting has moved to Pandaria and he doesn't want to risk the Alliance gaining more ground. This is strategy 101: don't overextend your forces and don't give your opponent an opening. If anyone here is presuming a lot it is you my friend.

He attacks Alliance without them provoking him in Wrath and his personality really does not change that much. Why is it that getting the title of Warchief changed his mind, when we can see he's still as intent on killing Alliance as ever. If anything he's become even more bloodthirsty since then. Why is it that in today's Azeroth he wouldn't want to destroy Stormwind? Why would he ever NOT want to destroy Stormwind and when has he given that vibe? How can he do any of that while still being in character, i.e. as anti-Alliance as they come? These are questions you haven't been able to answer.

[Aquamonkey]

He wasn't really 'raised' by blackmoore, more conditioned by him, where as Taretha, Sergeant and Jaramin Skisson taught him the things that made him so intelligent, and understanding of strategy, language and every other things that he survived on. He also learned humility from the frostwolves, and even from doomhammer. The whole point made at the end of the book states how he learned from so many, both orc and human.

Pfft. Clearly, the only reason Thrall is so "rational" compared to other orcs is because he was bit by a radioactive human.

[Trassk]

Pfft. Clearly, the only reason Thrall is so "rational" compared to other orcs is because he was bit by a radioactive human.

this really is as reasonable an argument as those still throwing the mary sue catchphrase around, as in.. it isn't.

Thrall was raised by both human and orc, he's born orc, raised by humans taught by orcs later, so he knows both sides and nobody, literally NOBODY in the horde can understand the working of humans, the orcs nautral enemy, better then he can.

[Duronos]

He killed Cairne, enough said there for me to want him dead.

[Velshin]

This is your problem, you presumes a lot, this is all that you do. If Garrosh at this point, in 5.4, would attack Stormwind, wouldn't surprise me at all, but BECAUSE of the escalation, the Alliance continued to oppose him even in Pandaria, Anduin even destroyed the Divine Bell that he wanted to use for empower his army, and the chances he sees for submit the Alliance are decreasing every day. And as i said before, if the Alliance continues to don't give up to Garrosh in battle, he, in the end, will surely aims to obliterate them from the planet, on their very home. So, yes, at that point of course he will outright attack the Alliance in their own territory.

You clearly don't fully understand the character, and for this very reason you never understood my points, you are just too biased about it and see only that you want to see. I'm done here.

He wanted to destroy the Alliance and Stormwind if he got the chance and the force for it. Please don't pretend that Garrosh is only wanted to defend himself and because the Alliance attacked first so Garrosh is kinda like counter attack? please you blame others of being biased but you yourself biased as well?

First of all I will not drag this too much...do you remember the ulduar trailer scene? how he was so close in creating an all out war between the Alliance and the Horde with the worst timing ever (because both Horde and the Alliance were dealing with Yogg saron threat and the Lich king). Pushing Jaina and charging toward Varian like a maniac?

Have you forgot in ToC when you are playing the horde side of the boss encounter faction champion and defeat them what Garrosh says in his quote?

"That was just a taste of what the future brings! For the Horde!"

I will say it again if Garrosh has the force and the chance to transform Stormwind to dust he will gladly do it without any hesitation even if Alliance of Stormwind will mind their own business there.

Another quote from Garrosh proves that he wanted to destroy Stormwind if he had the chance:


"You are slower than the last time we met. You are growing older, Varian. Perhaps you should let that sniveling son of yours be king. I will march on Stormwind when the kraken have reduced your mighty ships to kindling. I will take your precious boy, slap him in chains, and parade him through Orgrimmar!"

[Zulkhan]

He wasn't really 'raised' by blackmoore, more conditioned by him, where as Taretha, Sergeant and Jaramin Skisson taught him the things that made him so intelligent, and understanding of strategy, language and every other things that he survived on. He also learned humility from the frostwolves, and even from doomhammer. The whole point made at the end of the book states how he learned from so many, both orc and human.

Yeah i know i wrote it a little too strained, simply the whole argument "he transformed the orcs from monsters to civilized individuals because he was a human in orc disguise" made me a little, but just a little mad.

[ashblond]

Garrosh will be imprisoned on the isle of giants, where he orders all the dinos to serve him as slaves and plans to rise as the Dino King.

But the dinos can't understand his orcish, they just keep eating grass and don't give a moo to him.

And oondasta: what the heck is this brown gnome ???? and roflstomps him.

[Trassk]

Yeah i know i wrote it a little too strained, simply the whole argument "he transformed the orcs from monsters to civilized individuals because he was a human in orc disguised" made me a little, but just a little mad.

Well people have that wrong as well.

Despite peoples protests, the orcs were not bad people before the legion corrupted them, they were no different to that of the tauren infact, if a little rougher.
The legion transformed the orcs into the blood crazed monsters they became. And Thrall, because of how he was raised in understanding the perspective of both sides, was able to look beyond the common orcs understanding of events, and see a time when orcs were not bloodcrazed monsters, and so attempted to stir his people in that direction again.
The issues comes from those orcs that no longer care about there heritage, and just want to be blood crazed monsters.

[Zulkhan]

He wanted to destroy the Alliance and Stormwind if he got the chance and the force for it. Please don't pretend that Garrosh is only wanted to defend himself and because the Alliance attacked first so Garrosh is kinda like counter attack? please you blame others of being biased but you yourself biased as well?

First of all I will not drag this too much...do you remember the ulduar trailer scene? how he was so close in creating an all out war between the Alliance and the Horde with the worst timing ever (because both Horde and the Alliance were dealing with Yogg saron threat and the Lich king). Pushing Jaina and charging toward Varian like a maniac?

Have you forgot in ToC when you are playing the horde side of the boss encounter faction champion and defeat them what Garrosh says in his quote?

"That was just a taste of what the future brings! For the Horde!"

I will say it again if Garrosh has the force and the chance to transform Stormwind to dust he will be gladly do it without any hesitation even if Alliance of Stormwind will mind their own business there.

As i said, i'm done with the argument, and your post just confirm that is not time well spent continue to argue about it, since you are painting me like some kind of Garrosh's defender claiming that he's good, innocent and so on, while i'm simply arguing with reasoning about the character and recent events that maybe his goals are something little more than "MUHAHAHAHAHA CRAP ALLIANCE I SMASH YOU", besides how much his convinctions are twisted by abnormus pride and lack of morality, without considering his natural traits (recklessness, harsh and violent attitude).

[Velshin]

As i said, i'm done with the argument, and your post just confirm that is not time well spent continue to argue about it, since you are painting me like some kind of Garrosh's defender claiming that he's good, innocent and so on, while i'm simply arguing with reasoning about the character and recent events that maybe his goals are something little more than "MUHAHAHAHAHA CRAP ALLIANCE I SMASH YOU", besides how much his convinctions are twisted by abnormus pride and lack of morality, without considering his natural traits (recklessness, harsh and violent attitude).

First of all I didn't say you claim Garrosh as good or innocent but you claim Garrosh as a Warchief is not interested in taking over Eastern Kingdom for his Horde which is wrong and we proved to you that this is wrong. With his kind of personality and attitude he will gladly take Stormwind and all of Eastern Kingdom as I said if he has the force and man power for it which he doesn't...that is why he still didn't do it...not because he is not interested but because he can't. He is way too busy with Pandaria and Gilneas.

[Zulkhan]

The issues comes from those orcs that no longer care about there heritage, and just want to be blood crazed monsters.

In my opinion the greatest problem of the Garrosh's Horde it is not even Garrosh himself, by the orcs that follow him and that he has shaped during his reign, especially the young ones. You can take Garrosh out of the picture somehow, ok, but then you have to look what truly remains of the orcs in the end, and how they will see the end of Garrosh, and how can they change their mind or regret about the path they followed. I guess is this that Thrall want to try, somehow, to understand going to Orgrimmar.

---------- Post added 2013-05-20 at 12:46 AM ----------

Garrosh as a Warchief is not interested in taking over Eastern Kingdom for his Horde which is wrong and we proved to you that this is wrong.

You didn't prove nothing, this is the irony. You just make, as the guy before, a lot of assumptions with no facts behind it. You "guess" that Garrosh would make things "because". Nothing more.

[The Madgod]

You didn't prove prove nothing, this is the irony. You just make, as the guy before, a lot of assumptions with no facts behind it. You "guess" that Garrosh would make things "because". Nothing more.

We've got plenty of facts. We have his personality going all the way back to Wrath of the Lich King. We have those quotes from Tides of War. These all point to him not being the type of person to a) let bygones be bygones and b) let a historic enemy of his people do whatever they want if they promise not to attack him. He doesn't have it in him and you've failed to prove that he does. We've shown that the guy's unwilling to cooperate and we have his personality as a basis for our arguments.

You haven't proven that he doesn't want to destroy the Alliance. You haven't proven that he only wants to destroy Gilneas. We've shown that he wants to destroy the Alliance. We've shown that he wants to destroy other Alliance-controlled territories in the Eastern Kingdoms.

You've just been saying "nope." That's not how this works.

Look, let's just have it simple, alright?

Where is your evidence that despite Garrosh's hate of the Alliance, which has only grown since Wrath and despite his personality, which has degraded since wrath, that he would be willing to have peace with the Alliance if they wouldn't bother him? That he wouldn't want to simply kill them all?

[Trassk]

In my opinion the greatest problem of the Garrosh's Horde it is not even Garrosh himself, by the orcs that follow him and that he has shaped during his reign, especially the young ones. You can take Garrosh out of the picture somehow, ok, but then you have to look what truly remains of the orcs in the end, and how they will see the end of Garrosh, and how can they change their mind or regret about the path they followed. I guess is this that Thrall want to try, somehow, to understand going to Orgrimmar.[COLOR="red"]

Whats going to happen there could several things.
The orcs that have been shaped into loyalists to Garrosh will be mostly killed off. The sad thing of this is seeing a whole generation of orcs being killed.
The other is they are not killed off, but held as prisoners either by the alliance, or the horde itself.
Or, as you say, those orcs, in a moment of declaration, whoever wins the day speak out to these orcs, and spurs them on to following a new kind of leadership.

[Zulkhan]

We've got plenty of facts. We have his personality going all the way back to Wrath of the Lich King. We have those quotes from Tides of War. These all point to him not being the type of person to a) let bygones be bygones and b) let a historic enemy of his people do whatever they want if they promise not to attack him. He doesn't have it in him and you've failed to prove that he does. We've shown that the guy's unwilling to cooperate and we have his personality as a basis for our arguments.

You haven't proven that he doesn't want to destroy the Alliance. You haven't proven that he only wants to destroy Gilneas. We've shown that he wants to destroy the Alliance. We've shown that he wants to destroy other Alliance-controlled territories in the Eastern Kingdoms.

You've just been saying "nope." That's not how this works.

I think i'm not a "dismisser" and that i had enough patience for arguing about it. Now i had run out of it. At this point i'll just "dismiss" the matter saying that we have pretty different opinions about it, we'll see in the end of the story who was right about it. Cya

Whats going to happen there could several things.
The orcs that have been shaped into loyalists to Garrosh will be mostly killed off. The sad thing of this is seeing a whole generation of orcs being killed.
The other is they are not killed off, but held as prisoners either by the alliance, or the horde itself.
Or, as you say, those orcs, in a moment of declaration, whoever wins the day speak out to these orcs, and spurs them on to following a new kind of leadership.

What i would really appreciate would be seeing not just the well know Thrall's followers like the old Saurfang, Eitrigg ecc, but some hard-pride orc, someone that trust Garrosh and truly see him as their leader (still not a Kor'kron, someone like Nazgrim) that take some fateful decision in the end and become some kind of "guide" for other similar minds.

[The Madgod]

I think i'm not a "dismisser" and that i had enough patience for arguing about it. Now i had run out of it. At this point i'll just "dismiss" the matter saying that we have pretty different opinions about it, we'll see in the end of the story who was right about it. Cya

Well considering you were going on about how we were just inferring stuff from quotes and other parts of history for our arguments and that such wasn't really proof yet you were doing the same thing as Garrosh has never openly stated any of this one way or the other and we're basically both looking at different interpretations of what he's said and done, yeah, you were dismissing (or attempting to dismiss) our arguments with something that renders your own null and void.

[Velshin]

In my opinion the greatest problem of the Garrosh's Horde it is not even Garrosh himself, by the orcs that follow him and that he has shaped during his reign, especially the young ones. You can take Garrosh out of the picture somehow, ok, but then you have to look what truly remains of the orcs in the end, and how they will see the end of Garrosh, and how can they change their mind or regret about the path they followed. I guess is this that Thrall want to try, somehow, to understand going to Orgrimmar.

---------- Post added 2013-05-20 at 12:46 AM ----------



You didn't prove nothing, this is the irony. You just make, as the guy before, a lot of assumptions with no facts behind it. You "guess" that Garrosh would make things "because". Nothing more.

Man I linked you an exact quotations from Garrosh himself ingame and the novels and yet you deny it? read them please read them very carefully and you will see how exactly he would like to takeover Eastern Kingdom and Stormwind no problem if he has the power for it. Or are you the kind of guy who just says what he wanted and then close your ears and go with nananananana can't hear you ! I mean... really I'm not making assumption of anything these quotes are from Garrosh not from my imagination ok?

[Tyrannica]

Retconned, Lothar went down on a one-on-one battle with Doomhammer.

WC2 maps weren't the best storytelling model. Heck, we had to assault the Blackrock Mountain by sea, from south, on the game.

Proof that it was retconned? Retconned ingame?

The shape of the world was a bit different, wc2 map could still tell the story. Besides this wasn't about the map, but about doomhammers honor in one of the most critical lore events during the 2nd War. This event was quite shocking and on purpose, why should it be ever retconned? Seems pretty lame, i guess it was one of these weak wow books, no one bothers to read.

One on One Battle didn't ever happen ingame. That ambush with superior numbers against Lothar led by Doomhamer was not just a map, but a scripted story event, it was fully intended and its canon in WoW lore, nothing can change this fact. It can't be reversed by any means, it happened in a wow game and this is absolutely canon, especially as it was the alliance campaign.The Horde campaign was ignored as canon, or else humanity would be annihilated on azeroth. It wouldn't do the story any good if this would be retconned for whatever reasions. Maybe a weak attempt to redeem the orc crimes of 2nd war, could as well retcon the crimes to the blood elves of the alliance Grand Marshal Garithos, this makes no sense as far as story telling goes.

Also it would not explain the big statue in burning steppes, if it was just a honorable duel between two great leaders. Lothar was the hero in command who died against Doomhammer and his army killing him on a diplomatic mission. You might want replay this scenario, it is quite obvious what the story mastermind wanted to achieve here, and it was not meant to gloryfy Doomhammer.

To retcon everything what doomhammer did during the 2nd war to make him more honorable in Thrall's eyes and his decisions to use his name for the orc capitol is just this - pathetic. Orcs do not need to be redeemed to good by weak story rewriting, cause it leads us to the point, where the essence of warcraft: humans vs orcs - alliances vs horde, in itself makes no sense anymore as everyone is good and honorable, and there is no reasion to ever fight for something. But that downfall started allready in wc3, when horde and alliance worked together...so i have to say Garrosh is the perfect warchief for the horde at this time, alternates are weak or too peaceful. The problem with garosh is, he might be too dumb for his position and therefore needs to be executed.(replaced) But i see no worthy successor who is smart and agressive enough to lead the horde against the alliance, ok there is 1. Its Sylvanas, but she is not an orc, female banshee undead that would really rock horde and orgrimmars politics and would be very good for the horde and its original plans to conquer azeroth and enslave all humanity. Of course metzen started to shift this focus to the burning legion and demonic influence, only. And i think thats a bit bad. Dreams of conquering the world are known druing all of ages of our history and we are mere humans. Always thought of these burning legion as a lack of creativity to do real characters and plots with orcs and humans and other non-demonic races in azeroth.