No more progression for pvp anymore. Whats the point in pushing high ratings now?

[Zeshiro]

Says the communist regime? CS was the biggest trend, the most played game, for at least a good 5 years (2000-2005).

I played CS during those years. I spent the majority of the time playing knife-only maps, crazy vehicle maps, and jump maps. CS might've been all those things that you said but that doesn't mean it was a perfect game, just the best game at the time.

[Repefe]

Im sure if wow made it so gear did not matter at all, fewer people would do pvp and queues would be longer.

I am not sure. It would certainly be insentive for new players/ppl who don't pvp often to give it a shot. To side track a bit I have to go back to lvl 10 when a new player joins his first BG to witness characters with health pools 3-4 times bigger than his who kill him with a single ability ... in the spirit of old school MMORPG PvP that's fair competition since once he gets to lvl 90, farms a few BoAs and rolls an alt he will be on equal footing. Random BGs on lvl 90 are the same. If you don't play pvp often and join one you have to fight difference of experience, possible class imbalance and impossible gear imbalance. How fun is that.

While I can understand this shift, I am still confused as to how having gear progression completely removes the skill and class component to PvP. In my opinion it doesn't remove it at all, it just creates a gearing reward aspect so you can't just ding 90, have full gear, and the point of the game is no longer to better your character but to just "play." Gets boring fast from what I've seen with other games.

I didn't say it removes it. It's gearing up&skill&class vs just skill&class. The point about becoming boring ... that's a more basic problem with WoW PvP. Gear works as a cover up to lessen that issue, but that problem should be fixed differently.

[Chestbrah]

The direction that this "level playing field" mentality has taken the game:

From having very distinct spec trees with 60-70 points to place in different areas ----> The new 6 tier, one point per tier system to essentially choose abilities and that's it
Having requirements for getting the "best" pvp gear in the game at the time ----> No requirements and one can sit on 10 arenas per week and fully gear

Gear gaps meant a player really cared about pvp and tried harder than sitting in a 1k bracket to get 10 wins.


If you want a level playing field, consider this -

WoW now has 3 classes. Melee, Ranged, Healer. They all are created as level 90s, and there is no reason to ever visit any of the zones in the game. Each class has 1 and only one spec, and no select-able talents. All gear is equalized and every class has the same stats. Every arena team now is 100% cookie cutter and requires 1 of each class to compete. You now just face mirrors with the exact same gear and abilities. If you win, your reward is telling people you beat more mirrors than they beat you. No one cares (similar to current WoW). You go to log on every day and rethink it because everything is exactly the same except for said "skill."


Or were you suggesting there should be more than just "skill" and "class" variety?

[melodramocracy]

Gear "unfairness" is nothing more than one person spending more time and effort making their character better than someone else. It has nothing to do with "fairness". Class balance, however, certainly does. But that's not what we're talking about.

The argument "Give everyone the same gear to make pvp balanced" is about the most flawed thing I've seen yet in attempts to balance pvp in the game. Horrible, ultra-casual player argument. If you want something like that go play guildwars or one of the many other failed attempts at dethroning WoW. They failed for a reason.

Look outside the realm of mmorpgs, and you'll find that all pvp games considered worthwhile do as much as they can to provide an even playing field, and let skill be the number 1 determining outcome of a match. You can twist this however you like, but that's simply a fact that you seem keen to ignore.

There's nothing here to be 'dethroned'. In the overall scope of PvP games, WoW isn't taken very seriously, and gear is part of the reason why. GW2 has it's own problems, but gear imbalance isn't one of them.

[Zeshiro]

Imagine if LFR, or even heroic raiding didn't award any gear/upgrades... what would a good 70% of the WoW playing population say about that? They would quit because everyone expects to be rewarded for accomplishing things. Otherwise there would be no reason to do it, unless you say you feel great about killing computer generated mobs because.... nevermind. It's not about "pvp for the fun you idiots," it's about having a challenging goal, reaching it, and getting something for your time, effort, and accomplishment.

PVE is not a competitive mode. The NPCs don't care about what's fair to them. This is why PVE has gear progression and why PVP shouldn't.

If I wanted to just kill people and feel good I'd go play more call of duty (which may still give more rewards than the current WoW pvp system).

So go play more CoD then? It sucks that you're unable to enjoy WoW's PVP without gear progression.

And as far as the "everyone should be on a level playing field" goes, I really can't agree with that either. I know alts are great fun and all, but there shouldn't be a system that is so easy to gear up an alt that in a week you can have full, fairly viable pvp gear... and then you ride out week by week doing 10 arena matches and getting the best pvp in the game with no requirement whatsoever. And now with the conquest catchup system you can pretty much have half of the best pvp gear in the game in a week.

God forbid we can spend less time grinding and more time having fun.

[Chestbrah]

Look outside the realm of mmorpgs, and you'll find that all pvp games considered worthwhile do as much as they can to provide an even playing field, and let skill be the number 1 determining outcome of a match.

And that's why those games have a fraction of the success of WoW. None of those games are worth playing to many people because they really are pointless when you don't gain anything for playing and can never improve your character. Like I said, even FPS' have adopted more character customization and upgrades. Do you think someone with a much better weapon they have unlocked is "geared" and more overpowered than someone who just started playing that FPS and has a shit weapon? Absolutely. Doesn't stop the success and desire of achievable items in those games either.

[CrusaderNerò87]

I think you underestimate how important it is for many people to have something to work for. Sure, in the beginning it's frustrating joining bgs without any gear. After getting a few items you feel stronger and stronger though.

Gear is not EVERYTHING. Bad players will still do bad with best gear and good players will aquire good gear quickly.

[melodramocracy]

And that's why those games have a fraction of the success of WoW.

WoW's success isn't built on pvp.

Like I said, even FPS' have adopted more character customization and upgrades. Do you think someone with a much better weapon they have unlocked is "geared" and more overpowered than someone who just started playing that FPS and has a shit weapon? Absolutely. Doesn't stop the success and desire of achievable items in those games either.

Those games are shit too.

[Chestbrah]

WoW's success isn't built on pvp.



Those games are shit too.

Black Ops II grossed $1 billion in the first 15 days of sale. Someone doesn't think that type of game is shit, and from what I've seen they get more and more successful when they add in the RPG elements right... because it makes it more of an achievement based PvP experience.

[crakerjack]

There's no strong argument for why there shouldn't be rating requirement on gear... the only argument I heard that I can understand is that people suck at PvP and want the best gear... aside from that, it's pitiful arguments like even playing field... If you're arguing about even playing field... chances are you suck at PvP. If I'm at 2500 mmr, I'll be facing people with the best gear... if you're 1300 mmr, you're not going to be facing gladiators or people with the best gear... you'd end up facing bad players who have gear equal to yours. What other arguments can someone attempt to make? There aren't any good ones. Bad players ruining the game for everyone. You don't see blizzard giving raiders loot for almost killing a boss... "oh darn, you were so close, 5%? W/e, we'll just give you the loot." it's the same concept for arena. If you don't win, you don't get the rating to buy better gear. Failing should push you to be better and to win... but I don't blame everyone who quits PvP... PvP sucks at the moment and will continue to do so because blizzard doesn't care about PvP.

[Baracuda]

Isnt the whole point of playing pvp, just to have fun?

No, the gear progression is the point: so people of lesser skill can have a chance against specs more powerful than their own and have a reason to play, not because they want to but because they're mind controlled by a carrot. A summary of the nay-sayer arguments.

[melodramocracy]

There's no strong argument for why there shouldn't be rating requirement on gear... the only argument I heard that I can understand is that people suck at PvP and want the best gear... aside from that, it's pitiful arguments like even playing field... If you're arguing about even playing field... chances are you suck at PvP. If I'm at 2500 mmr, I'll be facing people with the best gear... if you're 1300 mmr, you're not going to be facing gladiators or people with the best gear... you'd end up facing bad players who have gear equal to yours. What other arguments can someone attempt to make? There aren't any good ones. Bad players ruining the game for everyone. You don't see blizzard giving raiders loot for almost killing a boss... "oh darn, you were so close, 5%? W/e, we'll just give you the loot." it's the same concept for arena. If you don't win, you don't get the rating to buy better gear. Failing should push you to be better and to win... but I don't blame everyone who quits PvP... PvP sucks at the moment and will continue to do so because blizzard doesn't care about PvP.

PvP in this game extends beyond rated matches. Not quite sure how skilled players can possibly be threatened by the removal of gear disparity, but hey.

[Chestbrah]

PvP in this game extends beyond rated matches.

Not by much, because there is no POINT to doing other types of it... WPvP dead for years, anyone?

Not quite sure how skilled players can possibly be threatened by the removal of gear disparity, but hey.

None of us are arguing we're "threatened" by it - giving away free gear just saturates the entire rating scale, and honestly you end up with UNSKILLED people, able to do more because of the gear they got without gaining skill, but rather just playing week by week. Then you get every DK, rogue, and hunter in the game for example with full tyrannical, and because the way classes are built, they can still destroy someone with little to no skill because of their gear.

[DPA]

Not by much, because there is no POINT to doing other types of it... WPvP dead for years, anyone?



None of us are arguing we're "threatened" by it - giving away free gear just saturates the entire rating scale, and honestly you end up with UNSKILLED people, able to do more because of the gear they got without gaining skill, but rather just playing week by week. Then you get every DK, rogue, and hunter in the game for example with full tyrannical, and because the way classes are built, they can still destroy someone with little to no skill because of their gear.

Basically what you're saying is, that you can't win if you don't outgear people? Sad.

[Chestbrah]

Basically what you're saying is, that you can't win if you don't outgear people? Sad.

Please stop trolling.


Mod Edit: Please post constructively.

[DPA]

Please stop trolling.

I'm not trolling. He said it plain and simple. He can't beat "bad" players if he don't outgear them.

[Baracuda]

Not by much, because there is no POINT to doing other types of it... WPvP dead for years, anyone?

WoW is pointless, life is arguably pointless. Just because something doesn't have a point it doesn't mean we can't enjoy it.

[Zeshiro]

There's no strong argument for why there shouldn't be rating requirement on gear... the only argument I heard that I can understand is that people suck at PvP and want the best gear... aside from that, it's pitiful arguments like even playing field... If you're arguing about even playing field... chances are you suck at PvP. If I'm at 2500 mmr, I'll be facing people with the best gear... if you're 1300 mmr, you're not going to be facing gladiators or people with the best gear... you'd end up facing bad players who have gear equal to yours. What other arguments can someone attempt to make? There aren't any good ones. Bad players ruining the game for everyone.

You don't see blizzard giving raiders loot for almost killing a boss... "oh darn, you were so close, 5%? W/e, we'll just give you the loot." it's the same concept for arena. If you don't win, you don't get the rating to buy better gear. Failing should push you to be better and to win... but I don't blame everyone who quits PvP... PvP sucks at the moment and will continue to do so because blizzard doesn't care about PvP.

Seriously, more comparison of PVE to PVP? Funnily enough, you DO see Blizzard doing exactly what you said, they did it when they created LFR.

Also, try to understand that PVP does and should exist outside of ranked systems, just like every other multiplayer game; and these unranked systems should have the same balance.

[Solidsteel]

WoW will always be a PvE first game whether you agree with that or not. The majority of the playerbase PvE's especially with LFR coming out in Cata. Since the majority are PvE players they want to try to get them to experience PvP and thus are making it easy to do. I think it's dumb but that's my opinion.

[Steenk]

There are 3 ways to lose (or win for that matter) in pvp

1. Outplayed.
2. Outgeared.
3. Outnumbered.

Sometimes its a combo of a couple or all 3. If you have pvp'd enough then you know when you are outplayed vs when you are outgeared. Im personally glad the T2 gear is gone for one reason: carries & win-trading. Its very easy for anyone to buy a carry to 2.2k, get the gear, and then keep on being bad...just less bad bc they push out bigger numbers. Its like dropping a crate of loaded M-16s into the chimp cage at the zoo, and opening the gates.

Skill + Experience + Gear should be what determines your success, and not a huge reliance on gear.