I feel like WotLK was the sweet spot

[Leare315]

Wrath had a level of accessibility coupled with a popular lore figure to suck people in. I seriously think they need to bring back wrath style 10 mans, even as a parallel to current 10 mans if need be. Puggable raids are the only thing missing between wrath, cata and mop. LFR is fine but it really is playing the game on easy, and noone feels good doing that. Bring Illidan in on a new burning crusade and let us 10 man the stuff, add a 5 man during a raid patch.

[Itisamuh]

I would have to say the sweet spot was BC, at least in terms of PvP. WotLK certainly had the most interesting story content.

[Deleted]

Wrath was probably one of the best exp. The fact that it was followed by Cataclysm (one of the least liked exp) might make it seem better than it was. But it was far from perfect, this are some of the points that people seem to forget about wrath:

- Chain running heroics (with tabbards) was so optimal that people did that and only that.
- Trial of the Crusade was a major bummer, following on ulduar as hard enough.
- ToC is one of the least liked raids out there, no trash and too short (lots of complains there).
- Jousting sucked.
- Ulduar, as amazing as it was, was too big for most guilds and took a lot of time to finish.
- Patches were still taking too long to come out.
- There was a huge healer/tank crysis early on and at the beggining there was no dual spec.
- No, really, jousting sucked.
- EoE sucked too.
- Nax 10 was a joke.
- Raiders felt compelled to run every current raid twice a week (and it was a drag).
- Im not joking here, jousting sucks.

Those are the ones I recall and Im pretty sure many of them were voice loudly by the community.

I agree, plus I really didn't enjoy LFD aoe-fest heroics. TBC, in my opinion, is still the best all-around expansion. Wrath was the start of the "casualization" of WoW, and this isn't necessairly a bad thing since now I'm a casual myself, but I much prefered my big TBC "heroic friends list". At least in MoP I can experience the full storyline without schedules, but I miss some challenge not tied to raiding.

[mvaliz]

Although you cannot go on and on. Cause all there was was LFD. It was the only real choice.. [snip]

You've never seen my previous posts on Wrath, have you? :P

Just the development of the Lich King as a character I can write several paragraphs on.

The story of each zone? The presentation of the Titan lore? The fact that so many species actually had a decernable culture and style? Hell man, the Kau'lak had their own houses, boats, mounts, animation... they even had their own MAILBOX design!!!

Ulduar... nuff said. That's a separate post altogether! ^_^

ToC - sure, it definitely had its issues, but it also had some very nice perks - like 10 mans being VERY puggable. I was shocked to see how many organized 10 man normals for ToC there were.

ICC - lots here I could talk about, both pro and con - but mostly pro.

There was a LOT more to Wrath than LFD - LFD was just ONE example I used, my friend. ^_^

[Mordredofmia]

I can honestly say I haven't even had half the amount of fun in the game as I did in wrath. Chain running dungeons back then was a blast. the 10 man raid was fun and manageable with a group of friends. It was a total blast.

The game has only changed for the worse IMO. A few specs of goodness mired in a pool of crap

[Flaks]

funny cuz two years ago if you said wrath was the best.

You were a wrathbaby.

My how times have changed.

No...you were a wrathbaby if you started playing wrath.

By the first season of Cata most people were already agreeing that Wrath PvP for the most part was leaps and bounds ahead of Cataclysm.

By the first heroics of Cata people were agreeing that the "AoE snoozefests" were a billion times better/more enjoyable than tougher dungeons.

By the first raids of Cata people were missing ICC and Ulduar....wait no the first tier of Cataclysm was pretty damn good. But the raiding model was one that was and still is one of the best. If we'd stuck with the Wrath raid model we would have never needed LFR.

[Otimus]

No...you were a wrathbaby if you started playing wrath.

By the first season of Cata most people were already agreeing that Wrath PvP for the most part was leaps and bounds ahead of Cataclysm.

By the first heroics of Cata people were agreeing that the "AoE snoozefests" were a billion times better/more enjoyable than tougher dungeons.

By the first raids of Cata people were missing ICC and Ulduar....wait no the first tier of Cataclysm was pretty damn good. But the raiding model was one that was and still is one of the best. If we'd stuck with the Wrath raid model we would have never needed LFR.

You were always going to need LFR if you wanted content to continue to be funded like it was, under the pressure and watchful eye of the suits. Content that not many people do is hard to justify financially, especially when subs start dropping.

[Drithien]

From pvp to pve, from hardcore to casual. Patch 3.3.5 was icing on the cake.

Shifting away from WotLK formula was a huge mistake. A wise man once said: Never change a winning team.

They should've added more content, not completely change how things work. Blizzard hasn't reached the sweet spot again since 4.0

I disagree. The model was not sustainable in my opinion. And that is because it was based on excess reward, not good gameplay. In vanilla the goal was to play and have fun out in the world. In Crusade the goal switched to acquiring powerful gear through points, mostly PVP, when the term "welfare epics" first appeared. Which was done to direct the players' attention away from the severe lack of new content compared to vanilla. And in Wrath they took it one step further by offering powerful gear through PVE as well, with easy-to-grind content in group-dungeons, and to a lesser, but still quite big degree, in raid-dungeons.

Time after time they tried to substitute quanity of content for reward. Gameplay for "treats", prizes and instant gratification. They replaced progressive playing: playing through tenths of zones, through thousands of quests, advancing through several levels; with grinding: gathering points to get gear.

And that is why the Wrath system is not any more better than Crusade's, Cataclysm's or Mists'. The main problem of the game is not how to better bribe the players into continuing to play, but how to make them excited to play for fun's sake. Something which was never much of a problem in vanilla for the vast majority of players, or casuals as they are sometimes named, because their content of choice, adventuring in the world of the game, not gathering points, was widely available.

And therein lies the answer in my opinion: abundancy of content. Content for almost everyone: questing, exploring, crafting, reputation-grinding, mob-grinding, group-dungeon-running for laughs and points, group-dungeon-running for fun, challenge and powerful rewards, world pvping, dueling, battleground pvping, arena pvping, etc; every aspect of the game should be attended to in the same way and provided for with lots of content. Not just raiding and dungeon-running for fast points in PVE and arena with some random and rated battlegrounds for PVP.

World of WarCraft is an open-world, role-playing game. The reason it became so naturally popular in its beginning is the way it was so easily accessible, yet had so much depth, and an immense number of different things to do. If they can bring that back, and bring it right, not with half-hearted attempts, maybe the game will see some better days finally, not by subscription numbers necessarily, but by a more wide-ranging enjoyment of it by its players.

[Zooch]

We had a year long easy mode raid followed by a sad excuse for a raid. ICC would have been great had it lasted 4-6 months. I remember quitting twice, TWICE, during the period ICC was out because of how long it was. I'd say the sweetest spot for PvE was the first 2-3 weeks of Cata before the nerfs set in.

[theredviola]

I disagree with you slightly on two points. Transmog and LFR.

Transmog is something that I dreamed of even way back when I first started playing back in 2005. I'm so very glad it finally came true at the end of Cata.

As for LFR, this is a hot button term because of how passionately divided the player base is over LFR. However, I feel that the -idea- of LFR was a success... Blizz is just tinkering with different ways to execute on it properly.

[Peacemoon]

In my opinion MoP is the sweet spot for PvE content. There are multiple ways to attain gear and multiple ways to obtain valour, all without making the raids and previous progression obsolete. WotLK is the expansion that gave us Ulduar, and then not long after let us bypass it by running Halls of Lightning and other ridiculously easy 5 mans. People seem to forget that.

[Valkors]

Sorry but I am also going to disagree with you.

The talent system in MoP is severely lackluster. As an warlock main I've gotta say that the class has been completely demolished (mostly affliction). Removing instant shadow bolt procs and giving us a channel spell, making us choose between death coil and howl of terror, changing how soul link works, not only our damage is very low, the design changes were completely wrong, unpopular and uncalled for.

Warlocks are top dps in Mop though. Although you may not like the changes they made, and you have every right to voice your opinion on it, stating that they are low damage is just false. Warlocks are very competent dps wise, and are some of the most sought after classes for 10 mans due to health stones, the portal, and, not to beat a dead horse, their intense and competitive dps.

[Combatbutler]

I have far more bad memories of Wotlk than any other xpac. It utterly destroyed the community of my old server and in the end my guild, so from my point of view it was the worst xpac.

[schwank05]

If I remember the "sweet spot" correctly we had 9 months of a raid and a patch that was poorly received (Ruby Sanctum).

ICC to me was like Kara, and I could easily have raided it for many more months.

[ragnarokvr1]

You've never seen my previous posts on Wrath, have you? :P

Just the development of the Lich King as a character I can write several paragraphs on.

The story of each zone? The presentation of the Titan lore? The fact that so many species actually had a decernable culture and style? Hell man, the Kau'lak had their own houses, boats, mounts, animation... they even had their own MAILBOX design!!!

Ulduar... nuff said. That's a separate post altogether! ^_^

ToC - sure, it definitely had its issues, but it also had some very nice perks - like 10 mans being VERY puggable. I was shocked to see how many organized 10 man normals for ToC there were.

ICC - lots here I could talk about, both pro and con - but mostly pro.

There was a LOT more to Wrath than LFD - LFD was just ONE example I used, my friend. ^_^

You know I love your posts deeply Mvallas, but you cannot honestly tell me you liked the way they butchered the Lich King and his true strength.

All the parts which were cool about him were generally referenced to his past and stuff we had already seen in Warcraft 3. You cannot tell me you actually enjoyed "killing" the Lich King in ICC after Metzen has specifically said Arthas and Ner'Zhul were both dead entities and the LK was something other altogether.

Plus Tirion Crapdring going all Deus Ex Machina with his Hashbringer and just making our entire battle mean nothing in the end.

It's like "Oh, I'm the Lich King, I'm an all powerful demigod, but I'll just stand here while Tirion is obviously breaking out of that icicle behind me, and I have no way of sensing his power building inside him. But it's ok, I have an alibi, I was too concentrated on rezzing these people."

COME ON, give me a break. Plus, why the hell does Frostmourne shatter when facing Hashbringer? Where is it explained that a Naaru infused sword is absolutely better than a sword created by one of the greatest lords of the Burning Legion?

It's just so weak, the LK could have invaded the Eastern Kingdoms and Kalimdor a hundred times over with his undead armies, like Ner'zhul did originally, but instead he chose to stand in ICC "waiting for the world's mightiest heroes" to butcher his entire armies in the CHANCE that he might beat them?

Since when is the LK that STUPID?

[wildemu]

wotlk was great up until ulduar, and then it declined rapidly.

ICC for a year, that awful argent tournament raid as a tier, and then ruby sanctum filler.

[ragnarokvr1]

Also, WOTLK was the peak of WoW PVE, after that it just did a 360 and walked away...down a cliff.

It also showed great promise for PVP to come but that obviously didn't carry on in Cata and even less in the current garbage.

Wintergrasp should have been the peak of the iceberg, instead it got nerfed and abandoned and turned into a 2h:30min CD BG with PVE raiding for the winners.

What a tragedy.

[Siq1ne]

This reminds me of those days, in Wrath, where people were claiming it to be the worst expansion yet.

*smh* People are so funny!

[Otimus]

Also, WOTLK was the peak of WoW PVE, after that it just did a 360 and walked away...down a cliff.

It also showed great promise for PVP to come but that obviously didn't carry on in Cata and even less in the current garbage.

Wintergrasp should have been the peak of the iceberg, instead it got nerfed and abandoned and turned into a 2h:30min CD BG with PVE raiding for the winners.

What a tragedy.

Yeah, the way those so-called world PVP battle areas were handled was fucking absurd. Everything Wintergrasp was touted to be before release got me so super excited, and... it turned into a battleground, essentially, with a cooldown, like you said. Might as freaking well be instanced. Every damned thing else of any worth in this game is instanced.

[Phoef]

tbc black temple patch was the sweetspot, the cherry on the cake, the icing on ... etc