How would you like to handle the "gap" between LFR and Normal raiding?

[Deleted]

People pay for fun. Why deny them it?

who said raids are ultimate fun in WoW, and everyone should be able to clear them? and what about people who actually like challange, why you deny them fun by nerfing their content?

Listen, I'm bad at PvP so I don't do it, why someone who is not able to put 2 and 2 together in PvE, can't stick to something at his skill level and find fun in other activities in the game?

[Deleted]

I think you need to hone your reasoning abilities before you start applying that epithet to others. The argument you are attempting to construct does not hold together.

Likewise. We are approaching summer. Your argument is completely irrelevant. You cant connect guilds quitting in T14 with T15 normal modes. You gotta understand how terrible reasoning that is. "My guild stopped raiding in T14 because T15 looked hard on PTR".
Wows subs is declining. Guilds fall apart. Both normal mode and heroic mode guilds fall apart. Not like this is news. Some guilds may have thrown in the tower because they thought they had bad progress in T14, but that is an issue with T14 balancing in that case, not T15. That is completely irrelevant here. But I guess this is your last line of defense since you have no other resort, one last breath, nice to see

Even so, if those guilds fell apart for whatever reason, may it be that they did not like their progress, some people did not see eye to eye anymore, simply got bored of wow, not enough time due to IRL life, work, family or because the guild masters french girlfriend found chat logs of the GM and an officer and did not approve of their man-on-man fantasy action and decieded to post those chat logs for the entire guild to see and break up with him on ventrilo because of his affair with another guy in the guild. Whatever the reason may be. If the raiders of the guild that breaks up want to raid, they will continue to raid, in another guild.

So you see why your reasoning is completely irrelevant? Even if guilds disband, not like their raiders characters gets deleted. Maybe some of them stopped playing entirely, but those that want to raid will continue to raid.

Also that is still all entirely irrelevant to this. What we have data to support is that every single fight in ToT normal have a lower gap coming in from previous encounters than going from normals into early heroics. The only boss we do not have data from is Jin'Rokh as we can simply not set a data point for it.
I have never heard anyone complain about Jin'Rokh being hard. Prove me wrong, but that is not something I have heard. Even the dreaded Horridon that we have seen so much complaints about on forums, a new thread every day almost, is not even remotely close to the heroic modes.
So tell me, how can Jin'Rokh be worse?

I mean, I do not have any hard data to support Jin'Rokh being easier. But neither do you. I have data to support the other 24 encounters in ToT and they spec towards my favor. Considering that there are no complaints on forums about Jin'rokhs overtuning, I think it is safe to assume that Jin'Rokh is no different from the other 24 encounters. Or do you care to disagree?

[Ragedaug]

who said raids are ultimate fun in WoW, and everyone should be able to clear them? and what about people who actually like challange, why you deny them fun by nerfing their content?

Listen, I'm bad at PvP so I don't do it, why someone who is not able to put 2 and 2 together in PvE, can't stick to something at his skill level and find fun in other activities in the game?

In random BGs you are still playing as a team against other players in a coordinated manner. With few exceptions, it's still going to be about team play.

LFR is not the equivalent of that on the PVE side. LFR is people rolling through their rotations for 15 minutes at a time with little to no need to worry about what anyone is doing.

Even with the fact that you are playing with mostly strangers, there's still a sense of community to random BGs. That doesn't exist in LFR. PVE end game currently has no draw for the average player that builds community.

Lots of scrubs were in guilds and actively raided in Vanilla. Lots of scrubs were in guilds and actively raided in BC. We don't even have to mention how many scrubs raided Wrath. T11 brought the first tier that scrubs were not welcome to. MoP continues that trend because Blizzard is under the false impression that LFR is raiding and builds community.

[Deleted]

You and I have very different views of random BGs. Atleast solo queueing.

[Luxeley]

The problem is simple and the solution is even simpler. People don't bother to effectively learn how to play their class, don't bother to look up a boss fight on YouTube and don't look at the game as a challenge. Oddly enough, I am not a PVE'er, however; I do see evidence of all of these points in PVP and there is no doubt in my mind they trickle into PVE as well. Blizzard's brilliant solution up and until now has been make the classes easier and homogenous. From 71 to 32 to 6 talents and people still can't play their class.

Blizzard does nothing to instruct players on how to play their class. For example: warriors - the starting zones give you a quest to teach you charge somewhere around lvl 3-5 and that's it. After that, you're a pro, no other instruction of passive abilities, mastery, rotation, cds, nothing. Learn charge and you're good to go, next up : TOT LFR.
However, the community does a great job at instructing people, but I honestly don't think people care about playing well. They simply want to have fun and there is nothing wrong with that. So, I suggest Blizzard finds a way of making it fun to learn how to use each classes key abilities. Put the process in a series of quests that in the end payoff with a special Class mount and a decent amount of gold.

So, what you do is incorporate learning the abilities of your class in a series of quests while you level up, make them fun, engaging and rewarding.

Separate the lockouts of 10m and 25m raids and up the ante on the difficulty and the rewards for 25m.

Put LFR on a one patch lag and let the mechanism serve as a catch up tool as well as learning tool. Do the same they did with Conquest and up the Valor cap for a certain percentage for each week you failed to cap. This way ppl can spam run LFR with the purpose of catching up to be able to raid and perhaps learn something in the process.

Make 10M and 25M heroic modes - super hard so the hard core players can have their challenge and glory. Create and promote a system that shows guilds with the most Heroic boss kills for both modes.

This will bring back a challenge as well as sense of pride in the game.

[SaltLakeAtrocity]

When you pug with strangers, losing is a nuisance that doesn't add anything to the game.

When you progress with friends, being unable to lose undermines the whole point.


Fundamental difference will never be able to be correctly addressed unless you make some way for players to see wiping as something other than just a nuisance.

[Ragedaug]

You and I have very different views of random BGs. Atleast solo queueing.

Solo queueing can be rough some times, though I've often solo queued and found some strangers that I hadn't met before and likely won't meet again who teamed up with me for the duration of the battleground hitting our targets, etc. I've never had that happen in LFR

I'll concede your point that queuing for BGs with 1 or more friends is far better than solo queuing. I can queue with ANY of my friends, regardless of their skill or gear level and still have fun. Even if it's watching them get squashed, because they have no gear, then joking about that afterwards, though it's even more fun when me and a couple friends can run around rolling some of the players on the other side. Again, that doesn't happen in LFR. I've joined LFRs with all my friends in vent, and we don't say one word to each other. We all just mindlessly roll through our rotations for boss after boss. Random BGs have us talking and coordinating constantly.

The point is, almost every BG I've ever been in is filled with a percentage of skilled/gear players carrying a percentage of bad/non-geared players. When you try that in PVE, you can't beat bosses. When you note you can't beat the boss, the answer is "drop the bad/non-geared players, they aren't supposed to be in here".

[isadorr]

The problem is simple and the solution is even simpler. People don't bother to effectively learn how to play their class, don't bother to look up a boss fight on YouTube and don't look at the game as a challenge. Oddly enough, I am not a PVE'er, however; I do see evidence of all of these points in PVP and there is no doubt in my mind they trickle into PVE as well. Blizzard's brilliant solution up and until now has been make the classes easier and homogenous. From 71 to 32 to 6 talents and people still can't play their class.

Blizzard does nothing to instruct players on how to play their class. For example: warriors - the starting zones give you a quest to teach you charge somewhere around lvl 3-5 and that's it. After that, you're a pro, no other instruction of passive abilities, mastery, rotation, cds, nothing. Learn charge and you're good to go, next up : TOT LFR.
However, the community does a great job at instructing people, but I honestly don't think people care about playing well. They simply want to have fun and there is nothing wrong with that. So, I suggest Blizzard finds a way of making it fun to learn how to use each classes key abilities. Put the process in a series of quests that in the end payoff with a special Class mount and a decent amount of gold.

So, what you do is incorporate learning the abilities of your class in a series of quests while you level up, make them fun, engaging and rewarding.

Separate the lockouts of 10m and 25m raids and up the ante on the difficulty and the rewards for 25m.

Put LFR on a one patch lag and let the mechanism serve as a catch up tool as well as learning tool. Do the same they did with Conquest and up the Valor cap for a certain percentage for each week you failed to cap. This way ppl can spam run LFR with the purpose of catching up to be able to raid and perhaps learn something in the process.

Make 10M and 25M heroic modes - super hard so the hard core players can have their challenge and glory. Create and promote a system that shows guilds with the most Heroic boss kills for both modes.

This will bring back a challenge as well as sense of pride in the game.

A sense of pride downing nerfed content dumbed down to a lol mode? You put heroics super hard then when people clear normal modes because they barely require a brain cell to clear, people will cry that heroics are too hard and now they have nothing to do.

---------- Post added 2013-05-26 at 07:05 AM ----------

End of thread right here.

Everyone arguing against this is on the wrong side of history. They are against the developers (who are on the record about this) and they are against the data.

How I would handle it would be to nerf normals to the ground and to bad so sad if it means heroics have to be nerfed to. Suck it up. Game doesn't need more difficulties. It needs the current ones to be more accessible. TO fucking bad if it means a tiny tiny minority of hardcore players are left out in the cold. Nobody cares.

WHo makes most guides and is sponsored? Who is put on stage at blizzcon? Who is the end game designed for? What part of stop being bad dont people get? Servers are pugging Tot, full clear in one night with people who hardly know what they are doing yet you drool so hard you cant clear it so it needs to be nerfed?

[Ragedaug]

A sense of pride downing nerfed content dumbed down to a lol mode? You put heroics super hard then when people clear normal modes because they barely require a brain cell to clear, people will cry that heroics are too hard and now they have nothing to do.

I haven't seen that. They normally just call it until the next patch comes out. The players that aren't good enough to attempt heroic modes aren't clearing normals all that quickly.

[isadorr]

Solo queueing can be rough some times, though I've often solo queued and found some strangers that I hadn't met before and likely won't meet again who teamed up with me for the duration of the battleground hitting our targets, etc. I've never had that happen in LFR

I'll concede your point that queuing for BGs with 1 or more friends is far better than solo queuing. I can queue with ANY of my friends, regardless of their skill or gear level and still have fun. Even if it's watching them get squashed, because they have no gear, then joking about that afterwards, though it's even more fun when me and a couple friends can run around rolling some of the players on the other side. Again, that doesn't happen in LFR. I've joined LFRs with all my friends in vent, and we don't say one word to each other. We all just mindlessly roll through our rotations for boss after boss. Random BGs have us talking and coordinating constantly.

The point is, almost every BG I've ever been in is filled with a percentage of skilled/gear players carrying a percentage of bad/non-geared players. When you try that in PVE, you can't beat bosses. When you note you can't beat the boss, the answer is "drop the bad/non-geared players, they aren't supposed to be in here".

Getting rolled in a BG is losing also so it is the same as not being able to defeat a boss because the players are bad or undergeared. If you look at guilds logs, you will see people at the top of the charts and people on the bottom that arent good or bad, decent enough to fill out the raid. So that is also the same as skilled/gear players carrying others.

The problem arises when most of the raid is bad that it is impossible to carry all of them so people wipe. Not learning nor getting better, which defeats the idea of raiding. A challenge where you learn and get better downing new bosses but instead people now just whine its too hard.

[NeverStop]

A sense of pride downing nerfed content dumbed down to a lol mode? You put heroics super hard then when people clear normal modes because they barely require a brain cell to clear, people will cry that heroics are too hard and now they have nothing to do.[COLOR="red"]

= nerfed Heroic Mode, as ICC, Firelands, and Dragon Soul have shown us. And even when content is nerfed that low, there are people who still complain content is too hard.

[isadorr]

I haven't seen that. They normally just call it until the next patch comes out. The players that aren't good enough to attempt heroic modes aren't clearing normals all that quickly.

How about people in the guild look at the numbers people are putting up in raids and help the people who are doing badly? If people are all friends why wouldnt they want to help a friend get better and learn the proper rotation and so on?

[Ragedaug]

Getting rolled in a BG is losing also so it is the same as not being able to defeat a boss because the players are bad or undergeared. If you look at guilds logs, you will see people at the top of the charts and people on the bottom that arent good or bad, decent enough to fill out the raid. So that is also the same as skilled/gear players carrying others.

The problem arises when most of the raid is bad that it is impossible to carry all of them so people wipe. Not learning nor getting better, which defeats the idea of raiding. A challenge where you learn and get better downing new bosses but instead people now just whine its too hard.

You can't carry 2 bads through normal modes, and having 1 bad would make normals extrememly difficult. Randoms BGs are at least half filled with bads and everyone is wiinning half of the matches on average.

[Exac]

Right now, I'd rather that 25-man drops double upgraded items, or thunder-forged items, while 10-man has only a (25%?) chance to drop higher-ilvl items.

[Ragedaug]

How about people in the guild look at the numbers people are putting up in raids and help the people who are doing badly? If people are all friends why wouldnt they want to help a friend get better and learn the proper rotation and so on?

They do help. Who said they don't? But when the person can't compete at the level required, they are told to dump them. Normal modes aren't built to be able to carry bads.

[isadorr]

You can't carry 2 bads through normal modes, and having 1 bad would make normals extrememly difficult. Randoms BGs are at least half filled with bads and everyone is wiinning half of the matches on average.

Because the other side has bad players also while a NPC or boss wont. These fights are all scripted, i dont get how people cant learn a simple fight which more are as they are close to the same each time. If players are that bad then really raiding progression isnt for them and if you are a social casual guilds then progression isnt your main goal. WHy not go raid t14 as obviously you arent pushing progression with the thought process involved here.

---------- Post added 2013-05-26 at 07:14 AM ----------

They do help. Who said they don't? But when the person can't compete at the level required, they are told to dump them. Normal modes aren't built to be able to carry bads.

We pug Tot every week with alts/pugs, full clear. I dont get how we carry bads through a full clear and a lot more than 2, and have no problems. The boss is going to do each mechanic the same way each time, DBM is going to tell when its going to happen, so you can see the future but people lack the ability to comprehend that?

[Ragedaug]

Because the other side has bad players also while a NPC or boss wont. These fights are all scripted, i dont get how people cant learn a simple fight which more are as they are close to the same each time. If players are that bad then really raiding progression isnt for them and if you are a social casual guilds then progression isnt your main goal. WHy not go raid t14 as obviously you arent pushing progression with the thought process involved here.

That's the whole point. the other side is built with the same level of competition. Every fight the other side learns more and gets more challenging, and your side does as well.

Normal modes are built for a very small portion of the player base to be successful at.

[isadorr]

That's the whole point. the other side is built with the same level of competition. Every fight the other side learns more and gets more challenging, and your side does as well.

Normal modes are built for a very small portion of the player base to be successful at.

So instead of improving and becoming a better player that will benefit the person every single tier, it is better to nerf content so they dont have to improve. Instead of fixing their ui, rotation, gems,reforge, so you arent playing horribly, we just nerf it instead. Why learn and get better? Why face the challenge and down it without nerfs when you can just hope for nerfs and keep playing badly? Before Nerfs, people just had to become better players, crazy huh?

[Ragedaug]

Because the other side has bad players also while a NPC or boss wont. These fights are all scripted, i dont get how people cant learn a simple fight which more are as they are close to the same each time. If players are that bad then really raiding progression isnt for them and if you are a social casual guilds then progression isnt your main goal. WHy not go raid t14 as obviously you arent pushing progression with the thought process involved here.

---------- Post added 2013-05-26 at 07:14 AM ----------



We pug Tot every week with alts/pugs, full clear. I dont get how we carry bads through a full clear and a lot more than 2, and have no problems. The boss is going to do each mechanic the same way each time, DBM is going to tell when its going to happen, so you can see the future but people lack the ability to comprehend that?

Link me the armory of a couple of these bads full clearing ToT each week. I call BS.

[isadorr]

That's the whole point. the other side is built with the same level of competition. Every fight the other side learns more and gets more challenging, and your side does as well.

Normal modes are built for a very small portion of the player base to be successful at.

Ironically they are nerfing tank dps next tier, vengeance nerfed from, 100% to 30% which will effect guilds total dps, so maybe they dont think normal mode is too hard? They nerfed tot first six bosses the 2nd week of this tier, and some more nerfs were in this last patch.

---------- Post added 2013-05-26 at 07:21 AM ----------

Link me the armory of a couple of these bads full clearing ToT each week. I call BS.

Lightbringer, Eternal Reign we run a pug every single week as do a lot of raiding progression servers. I dont know what your server looks like but raiding servers have been doing this for a while. Alts out of our guild and pugs on the server, and we full clear in one night.

I cant link the bad because they are just pugs that get in each week, different players on the server that make arrangements to come along.